Rudd - Copenhagen - He can't Wait To...

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leftfield
leftfield
WA
200 posts
WA, 200 posts
22 Nov 2009 2:53pm
busterwa said...

global warming is happening but why must Australia change when one city in china is pumping out more total pollution than our entire country.


Per head of population Australia is one of the worlds worst polluters. Thats why we/you must change..
leftfield
leftfield
WA
200 posts
WA, 200 posts
22 Nov 2009 3:01pm
cisco said...

leftfield said...

Immanuel Velikovsky has about as much credibility as Dan Brown..


If you don't like those authors try "State of Fear" by Michael Crichton.
Maybe he is contemporary enough for you.



State of Fear is a work of fiction?? You are aware of that?

I am not saying Velikovsky is incorrect because his work is not contemporary. Just that it is made up rubbish based on semi truths and mythology. It was codswallop 50 years ago and it is codswallop now.

busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
22 Nov 2009 5:16pm
original....

Red is comments by readers
Kevin Rudd's $7b UN wrangle
www.heraldsun.com.au/nocookies?a=A.flavipes

Copenhagen bound: Climate Change Minister Penny Wong will attend the UN's climate C=change conference next month. Source: Herald Sun

NEXT month Kevin Rudd flies to Copenhagen to help seal a United Nations deal to cut the world's emissions - and to make Australia hand over part of its wealth

So keen is the Prime Minister to get this new global-warming treaty signed that he's been appointed a "friend of the chairman" to tie up loose ends.

So here's the question: is Rudd really going to approve a draft treaty that could force Australia to hand over an astonishing $7 billion a year to a new and unelected global authority?

Yes, that's $7 billion, or about $330 from every man, woman and child. Every year. To be passed on to countries such as China and Bangladesh, and the sticky-fingered in-between.

And a second question, perhaps even more important: is Rudd really going to approve a draft treaty which also gives that unelected authority the power to fine us billions of dollars more if it doesn't like our green policies?

It is incredible that these questions have not been debated by either the Rudd Government or the Opposition, whose hapless leader, Malcolm Turnbull, on Monday admitted he did not even have a copy of this treaty.

Australia's wealth and sovereign rights may soon be signed away, so why hasn't the public at least been informed?

In case you think what I'm saying is just too incredible - too far-fetched - to be true, let me quote this draft treaty.

Here is paragraph 33 of annex 1, which has already been discussed at UN meetings involving Australian negotiators in Bangkok and now Barcelona. Brackets indicate phrases which still need final agreement:

"By 2020 the scale of financial flows to support adaptation in developing countries must be [at least USD 67 billion] [in the range of USD 70-140 billion] per year."

Plus, says paragraph 17 of annex III E, developed countries such as Australia should "compensate for damage" to the economies of poorer countries "and also compensate for lost opportunities, resources, lives, land and dignity" allegedly caused by our gases.

And here comes the bill, in paragraph 41 of annex 1 of this extortion note: "[Financial resources of the Convention Adaptation Fund"] [may] [shall] include: (a) [Assessed contributions [of at least 0.7% of the annual GDP of developed country parties] ... "

In fact, deeper in the draft our bill for our "historical climate debt, including adaptation debt" climbs to at "at least [0.5-1 per cent of GDP]".

Wow. Let's do the sums. Australia's GDP is about $1000 billion a year. So this demand for 0.7 per cent of our annual wealth works out to $7 billion a year, to be handed over to a new global agency of the United Nations.

That's your money, folks. Billions to be sent to Third World governments and authoritarian regimes to allegedly deal with a warming that actually halted in 2001. And all funnelled through the UN, which brought us such fast-money wheezes as the Oil-for-Food corruption scandal.

Never have the Third World's demands for the First World's cash been so brazen.

But wait, there's more. Because never has the Left's mad goal of world government been so close, either.

This draft treaty, on which Climate Change Minister Penny Wong has worked, also calls for the creation of a new "board" of global warming bureaucrats appointed by the countries signing the Copenhagen deal.

The powers this board will have over us are astonishing. For a start, it will check our emissions, and could "impose financial penalties, at a minimum of 10 times the market price of carbon, for any emissions in excess".

Work it out: if we exceed our emissions target by, say, as much as Rudd warned two years ago we'd overshoot by 2012, we'd be up for a fine of $1.4 billion even with the very lowest carbon price under Rudd's plan.

Even more outrageously, this new world body could impose "penalties and fines on non-compliance of developed country parties" such as Australia that failed to honour "commitments to ... provide support in the form of financial resources, technology transfer and capacity building".

All this gives a remote and unelected world body a huge and unprecedented say in how we run our own economy and our foreign affairs. For instance, any Australian government that decided to keep gassy coal-fired power stations running to avoid blackouts or to save Australian jobs potentially faces huge fines from foreigners.

Likewise, if it stopped handing over technological breakthroughs to a China or some African leader it no longer trusted, it could be fined again.

But wait, there's still more.

You'd think this draft treaty that Rudd has worked on would at least give us a say over how our billions are spent.

But no. UN bodies are already notoriously hard for any one nation to supervise or restrain.

Even the United States, the biggest donor of all, could not stop the corruption at UNESCO two decades ago, and was forced to walk out in protest. Nor could it stop dictatorships such as Libya and Cuba from later holding key roles in the UN's human rights bodies.

And with this new global warming body, the vote of the paying West will be overruled even more decisively by the spending rest.

Under this draft treaty, the new board's biggest spending arm - the "adaptation fund" - will be managed by a "governing board comprising

three members from the five United Nations regional groups, two members from small island developing nations and two members from the least developed countries".

That formula means the industrialised nations which pay most could hold just one of the nine seats on the body which will then spend their cash. Our cash.

That's the treaty being prepared for the Copenhagen meeting. That's the billions we risk having to hand over. That's the power we risk losing over our own affairs.

Now ask: why hasn't this been the subject of furious debate? Where's the Government? Where's the Opposition?

Well, here's Rudd's one response to this threat, given only this week: "At this stage there's no global agreement as to what long-term financing arrangements should underpin a deal at Copenhagen."

That's a "trust me", with no bottom line. In fact, Rudd is already reaching into his - your - wallet: "Australia, once a global agreement is shaped, would always be prepared to put forward its fair share."But how much? Seven billion dollars a year? Five? Three? Hello?

As for Turnbull ... well, it's tragic.

Badgered by Alan Jones on 2GB on Monday on this very point, he said: "Of course the poorest countries are going to need assistance ... (But) there is no way that anything like this would be accepted without extensive debate."

So where is that debate, Malcolm? Why aren't you screaming from the rooftops for reassurances that our wealth won't be squandered and our powers handed over?

Just this week the European Union said it would pay its share of an

$82 billion cheque to this new body if countries such as ours come on board, too - so who's applying the brakes?

Not our politicians, for sure.
So if you oppose this surrender of our billions and our freedom, better start saying so now, before it's all too late.




Trant
Trant
NSW
601 posts
NSW, 601 posts
22 Nov 2009 8:30pm
Yeah, the point of the Copenhagen meeting is to

1) Make a promise to cut emissions
2) Set up a rolling slush fund to help poor nations develop carbon free methods of generating electricity. (1 billion people have no electricity)

I agree, the intentions are noble but it's a potential disaster waiting to happen.
ADS
ADS
WA
365 posts
ADS ADS
WA, 365 posts
22 Nov 2009 6:18pm
Like I said on a previous thread, we need a nationall debate on these issues. What's wrong with having this debate? why are so many (on this forum) so quick to write off anyone who stands up to this insanity? A lot of pro cimate changers are behaving like right wing religious zealots...
morph89
morph89
SA
54 posts
SA, 54 posts
22 Nov 2009 9:49pm
the earth is going through a period of warming simply because we have emerged from the last ice age! the main question is weather or not humans have accelerated it!

Also why is Carbon dioxide such a major focus for the government!? its effect as a green house gas is significantly smaller than methane which has a much greater effect as a green house gas and receives much less media attention.
ginger pom
ginger pom
VIC
1746 posts
VIC, 1746 posts
22 Nov 2009 10:29pm
cisco said...

Sign away our National Sovereignty to the U.N in the name of the FALSE science of Global Warming/Climate Change.....



one thing that's pretty important if global warming is false, is to convince the 100 ish people on here...
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
22 Nov 2009 9:31pm
THANK YOU BUSTERWA!!!

If the consensus of opinions on this forum is reflective of that in Australia generally, we are in deep trouble like lambs being led to the slaughter.

Rudd grows more smug and arrogant by the day and must be restrained from carrying out this plan.

How could anybody who appreciates freedom agree to it??
leftfield
leftfield
WA
200 posts
WA, 200 posts
22 Nov 2009 9:32pm
ADS said...

Like I said on a previous thread, we need a nationall debate on these issues. What's wrong with having this debate? why are so many (on this forum) so quick to write off anyone who stands up to this insanity? A lot of pro cimate changers are behaving like right wing religious zealots...


We probably do need a national debate on the issue. But what we dont need is creadence being given to these hypotheses that are based on nothing short of the christian right trying to shore up there vote.

Probably none of us on this forum are Climate scientists. But I am happy to defer to those who have a greater understanding of the issues than I do. Therefore I belive that climate change is happening because the majority of scientist (peer reviewed and all) believe in it.

I will not defer to the like of Andrew Bolt and Stephan Fielding..
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
23 Nov 2009 12:12am
leftfield said...

cisco said...

leftfield said...

Immanuel Velikovsky has about as much credibility as Dan Brown..


If you don't like those authors try "State of Fear" by Michael Crichton.
Maybe he is contemporary enough for you.



State of Fear is a work of fiction?? You are aware of that?

I am not saying Velikovsky is incorrect because his work is not contemporary. Just that it is made up rubbish based on semi truths and mythology. It was codswallop 50 years ago and it is codswallop now.




Please spare me the ridicule. Yes "State of Fear" is fiction but he does quote a lot of facts that make a fiction out of global warming/climate change.

Your comments on Velikovsky are quite unspecific, framed in the vernacular and delivered with a vehemence, no doubt designed to make you appear authorative on the subject matter.

One would then assume you have read his works otherwise how could you comment.

With reference to "Earth in Upheaval" which is based on geological evidence, please tell me where the lie is.

morph89
morph89
SA
54 posts
SA, 54 posts
23 Nov 2009 12:48am
just clarifying we are aware that the earths climate is constantly changing right?
leftfield
leftfield
WA
200 posts
WA, 200 posts
22 Nov 2009 10:25pm
cisco said...

leftfield said...

cisco said...

leftfield said...

Immanuel Velikovsky has about as much credibility as Dan Brown..


If you don't like those authors try "State of Fear" by Michael Crichton.
Maybe he is contemporary enough for you.



State of Fear is a work of fiction?? You are aware of that?

I am not saying Velikovsky is incorrect because his work is not contemporary. Just that it is made up rubbish based on semi truths and mythology. It was codswallop 50 years ago and it is codswallop now.




Please spare me the ridicule. Yes "State of Fear" is fiction but he does quote a lot of facts that make a fiction out of global warming/climate change.

Your comments on Velikovsky are quite unspecific, framed in the vernacular and delivered with a vehemence, no doubt designed to make you appear authorative on the subject matter.

One would then assume you have read his works otherwise how could you comment.

With reference to "Earth in Upheaval" which is based on geological evidence, please tell me where the lie is.




I admit I have never read Velikovsky. Why would I? His work has been throughly deconstructed by many academics. I apologise If I implied that I was an expert on him, I'll try to dig out a copy of "Earth in Upheaval" and tell you what I, a lay person thinks... Might as well ask any random taxi driver.. I have never read the whole of the bible either but.. can you see where I am going....??
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
23 Nov 2009 1:10am
If you want to do that, fine.

What any individual believes on the issue of global warming/climate change is not really the issue or the point of my thread.

Rudd's use of the issue to sell out our nation's future is.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
23 Nov 2009 1:13am
morph89 said...

just clarifying we are aware that the earths climate is constantly changing right?


I believe so and that it is a cyclic thing.

Trant
Trant
NSW
601 posts
NSW, 601 posts
23 Nov 2009 9:19am
morph89 said...

just clarifying we are aware that the earths climate is constantly changing right?


Yep, no one is denying this.
Trant
Trant
NSW
601 posts
NSW, 601 posts
23 Nov 2009 9:21am
cisco said...

If you want to do that, fine.

What any individual believes on the issue of global warming/climate change is not really the issue or the point of my thread.

Rudd's use of the issue to sell out our nation's future is.


Fair enough, stop using the phrase "FALSE science" to describe it then. That's what I'm taking issue with.
maxm
maxm
NSW
864 posts
NSW, 864 posts
23 Nov 2009 9:31am
Although I don't think any government can really sign away our national sovereignty, cisco. That may be a little strong. Sure, the government can sign us up to a treaty but treatys can be opted out of, ignored, broken, ... Who knows what future governments may do?
ADS
ADS
WA
365 posts
ADS ADS
WA, 365 posts
23 Nov 2009 10:01am
This is from leaked emails from Britain's leading climate science research centre, making public thousands of private emails between top climate change scientists.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26386792-401,00.html

In one email, Kevin Trenberth, a climatologist at the US Centre for Atmospheric Research, who supports the theory of man-made climate change, says: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment, and it is a travesty that we can't."

Paul of Brisbane Dr Trenberth says data published last August "shows there should be even more warming... the data are surely wrong".

In their own words, they can't prove man made climate change. Why then should we sign up to this dangerous and daft agreement?



cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
23 Nov 2009 1:00pm
maxm said...

Although I don't think any government can really sign away our national sovereignty, cisco. That may be a little strong. Sure, the government can sign us up to a treaty but treatys can be opted out of, ignored, broken, ... Who knows what future governments may do?


That is not quite the case maxm. This treaty has no opt out clause. Once signed up to it, no matter what future government we elect, we will still be subject to it.


ADS posted this on the 6th. Click the link and have a listen.

Was emailed this link to a Sydney radio station interview yesterday:
http://www.2gb.com.au/index2.php?option=com_newsmanager&task=view&id=4998
Some concerning points are raised.
I think we need a national debate on this topic.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
23 Nov 2009 1:05pm
Trant said...

cisco said...

If you want to do that, fine.

What any individual believes on the issue of global warming/climate change is not really the issue or the point of my thread.

Rudd's use of the issue to sell out our nation's future is.


Fair enough, stop using the phrase "FALSE science" to describe it then. That's what I'm taking issue with.


Fair enough. Would it be O.K. with you if I describe it as unverified and or unproven??

Trant
Trant
NSW
601 posts
NSW, 601 posts
23 Nov 2009 2:33pm
ADS said...

This is from leaked emails from Britain's leading climate science research centre, making public thousands of private emails between top climate change scientists.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,26386792-401,00.html

In one email, Kevin Trenberth, a climatologist at the US Centre for Atmospheric Research, who supports the theory of man-made climate change, says: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment, and it is a travesty that we can't."

Paul of Brisbane Dr Trenberth says data published last August "shows there should be even more warming... the data are surely wrong".

In their own words, they can't prove man made climate change. Why then should we sign up to this dangerous and daft agreement?



13 years worth of emails and this out of context line is the best that the news could find? Where's the evidence of mass collusion and manipulation?

Response from one of the guys at the sharp end;


Trenberth is talking about our inability to be able to measure the net radiation balance at the top of the atmosphere to the requisite precision to be able to say on short time scales what the energy budget is doing. The observations are inadequate for that - not sure who is saying otherwise.

www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2009/11/the-cru-hack/comment-page-3/#comment-142191
Trant
Trant
NSW
601 posts
NSW, 601 posts
23 Nov 2009 2:33pm
cisco said...

Fair enough. Would it be O.K. with you if I describe it as unverified and or unproven??


You could use the word "theory", then we'd both be happy I imagine.
maxm
maxm
NSW
864 posts
NSW, 864 posts
23 Nov 2009 6:50pm
cisco said...That is not quite the case maxm. This treaty has no opt out clause. Once signed up to it, no matter what future government we elect, we will still be subject to it.


I'm sure Britain and Germany had a treaty around about the late 1930s. I distinctly remember seeing the numbnut PM waving it around. Didn't last long and I don't think either side were too worried about opt-out clauses. [}:)]

Seriously, what could they do if a future government told 'em where to stick it? Invasion is unlikely. An embargo on our exports? I guess that'd keep the coal in the ground but there could be a couple of biggish countries that may object. It's a serious question 'cause I've not read it... what are the consequences?
Diver
Diver
WA
554 posts
WA, 554 posts
23 Nov 2009 4:29pm



Taken from the The Insiders yesterday, the above cartoon pretty well sums up the PM on climate change and other issues.
Jimmyz
Jimmyz
NSW
446 posts
NSW, 446 posts
24 Nov 2009 1:11am
morph89 said...

just clarifying we are aware that the earths climate is constantly changing right?


Yes.

As I said before a 'significant' change in this rate, it's an exercise in statistics but intuitively it would be proven on the grounds that the rate of climate change has accelerated to a level no longer consistent with the 'natural course' of change that you are talking about.
petermac33
petermac33
WA
6415 posts
WA, 6415 posts
24 Nov 2009 5:34am
this global warming/climate change is a fraud.

thousands of scientists worldwide have signed a petition saying so.

what is the real reason for pushing this nonesense on us.

a change in the tax system from a tax on labour to a carbon tax.

resulting in a increased revenue.

whether you believe this is part of a conspiracy or not a carbon tax is absolutely coming, its not if but when.

both sides of politics[at the very top] are bought off hook line and sinker by the corporate shadow government.

gordon brown mentioned no less than 6 times in a 3 minute speech of the coming new world order.

even when a prominent prime minister tells us 6 times on national television, some/many will still believe it is not a conspiracy.

this is the why this coming centralization of power[a one world government] is not going to be stopped.

climate change fraud, leading to a carbon tax is just one tool/instrument to get us there.

Trant
Trant
NSW
601 posts
NSW, 601 posts
24 Nov 2009 9:00am
petermac33 said...
both sides of politics[at the very top] are bought off hook line and sinker by the corporate shadow government.


Yes, because there's no money in Oil, Gas or Coal

From www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/may/12/us-climate-bill-oil-gas

"America's oil, gas and coal industry has increased its lobbying budget by 50%, with key players spending $44.5m in the first three months of this year in an intense effort to cut off support for Barack Obama's plan to build a clean energy economy.

The spoiler campaign runs to hundreds of millions of dollars and involves industry front groups, lobbying firms, television, print and radio advertising, and donations to pivotal members of Congress. Its intention is to water down or kill off plans by the Democratic leadership to pass "cap and trade" legislation this year, which would place limits on greenhouse gas emissions."

....

""These guys are spending a billion dollars this year convincing Americans that they are clean, green, cuddly and warm," said Bob Perkowitz, founder of the eco- America PR firm. Perkowitz is to brief the White House yesterday on a new environmental messaging strategy. "The enviros are getting their message out, but they are being outspent by 10 to one." he said.On advertising, the ratio is about three to one. "
Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
24 Nov 2009 10:54am
Trant said...

""These guys are spending a billion dollars this year convincing Americans that they are clean, green, cuddly and warm,"


It's a shame...coz a billion would go a long way in research and even some infrastucture to actually clean their acts up, and not just work their spin.
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
27 Nov 2009 1:43am
Well the "Emissions Trading Scheme", which Rudd wants to take to Copenhagen, has split the "Alternative Government" in two and caused most of their front bench to resign from the front bench.

Is it time to sit up and take notice yet or is the "Footy" more important???
oliver
oliver
3952 posts
3952 posts
27 Nov 2009 12:05am
cisco said...

Well the "Emissions Trading Scheme", which Rudd wants to take to Copenhagen, has split the "Alternative Government" in two and caused most of their front bench to resign from the front bench.

Is it time to sit up and take notice yet or is the "Footy" more important???


I'm reveling in the thought that the liberal party are in the wilderness now - no matter what happens with the leadership of the "alternative government" , they will be split for years to come. While they all bitch with each other it will allow the government that we voted in to do what we asked them to do.

I think you need to get used to that fact.

Richmond got Dustin Martin.
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