Solar Tower in Arizona

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laceys lane
laceys lane
QLD
19804 posts
QLD, 19804 posts
27 Jul 2011 8:14pm
JayBee said...

My point is that it is an expensive way of generating electricity. Just because it is "green" doesnt mean it should be funded at any cost.
Right now they are looking at governments to fund it, no corporate will touch it because it is too risky (cost/benefit doesnt add up).

Who will pay the cost to build? With no guarantee of efficiency, structural integrity or performance it is extremely difficult to find a construction financier. This project has been for sale for at least 7 years now and even now Arups are still working on how to actually build the structure (according to Enviromission's Annual report).

There would be plenty of customers for the output, but in this economic climate (pardon the pun) few people willing to fund construction.
Why not build a 50MW prototype to demonstrate the technology and prove construction costs?
Why not prove the technology before taking funding from already proven initiatives?

I have worked in a green industry where funding was withdrawn because of a rival energy source "not telling the whole truth" about costs. They got the funding based on a "miscalculation" of an order of magnitude!!!!!!

Once you have spent $750M and it only produces 100MW what do you do? If it falls down after 7 years (like the prototype did) what do you do? Once the $750M is spent and the project is 50% complete what do you do? Keep pouring money into it?

What I dont like is that it is untried, untested and currently unbuildable. If I were a financier I would want to have a prototype built first - because if it doesnt work there is no inherent value in the asset (if it doesnt perform as expected).

Be under no allusions - EnviroMission have no intention of building this - they want someone else to build it (and wear the risk) and they take the royalties for the IP.

JB


jb, just a quick sideline out of interest i googled home electricity generation. quite a few options. which system would you consider the best
cheers
teatrea
teatrea
QLD
4177 posts
QLD, 4177 posts
27 Jul 2011 10:44pm
The best option for home generation is to use less
teatrea
teatrea
QLD
4177 posts
QLD, 4177 posts
27 Jul 2011 10:50pm
Think about this the naysayers , more energy hits the earth from the sun in one hour than the whole Earth uses in one year.Yep we should stcik to burning **** instead
pweedas
pweedas
WA
4642 posts
WA, 4642 posts
27 Jul 2011 9:01pm
Ian K said...

From the gizmag link
"
Then, raise that tower up so that it's hundreds of meters in the air - because for every hundred metres you go up from the surface, the ambient temperature drops by about 1 degree. The greater the temperature differential, the harder the tower sucks up that hot air at the bottom "

Hmmm? Making gains from the adiabatic lapse rate? If this is an example of how well they've thought it through then they might not get as much power as they think.

Might just be the person writing the article.


Sshhhh! Don't tell everyone or no one will cough up the $750 million.

It is a bit puzzling though because they claim it works at night time and I don't see how that can happen just on the basis of the adiabatic lapse rate and that seems to be the whole basis for their claim.
I came to the conclusion that the tricky bit is in the construction of the chimmney and they must use special compounds which shield the inside from the laws of physics and therefore there is no lapse rate inside the cylinder. That would do it. And I think the technology is available because i've seen it on Docter Who.

The puzzling thing is that they had a demo plant running in Spain and I would imagine that one of the things they checked was if it worked at night.
Maybe I've missed something. Anyone got any ideas?
Or maybe they forgot to check that bit.
JayBee
JayBee
NSW
714 posts
NSW, 714 posts
27 Jul 2011 11:02pm
I agree with Teatrea - remove the requirement to use it in the first place. The only way to really reduce your electricity bill is to reduce your baseload requirement. Google "Passive House" and "Zero Energy Building" for some really good insights on what having a small energy footprint is really about.

Small scale (domestic) generation - Solar in warmer climates, CHP in colder climates. Problem with Solar is the same as buying a computer. In a year there will be a cheaper more efficient option on the market and you will have invested a lot of cash in a (relatively) inefficient solution.
Large scale generation - my cash would be on Geothermal.

JB
laceys lane
laceys lane
QLD
19804 posts
QLD, 19804 posts
27 Jul 2011 11:03pm
teatrea said...

The best option for home generation is to use less


yep, however as a builder, well not doing much at the moment, i can see home power generation becoming part of the energy efficency requirements for new homes hence the question

this is one i haven't seen before www.freelectricity.com/

is it any good- no idea

cheers
teatrea
teatrea
QLD
4177 posts
QLD, 4177 posts
27 Jul 2011 11:09pm
JayBee said...

I agree with Teatrea - remove the requirement to use it in the first place. The only way to really reduce your electricity bill is to reduce your baseload requirement. Google "Passive House" and "Zero Energy Building" for some really good insights on what having a small energy footprint is really about.

Small scale (domestic) generation - Solar in warmer climates, CHP in colder climates. Problem with Solar is the same as buying a computer. In a year there will be a cheaper more efficient option on the market and you will have invested a lot of cash in a (relatively) inefficient solution.
Large scale generation - my cash would be on Geothermal.

JB


Yeah if had some doh i wasnt spending on boards , id be investing in Geothermal.I think its great people are thinking of new ways , biggest hurdle is every one wants a clean environment and green energy , but as long as it does not cost them!! Or there lifestyle.
teatrea
teatrea
QLD
4177 posts
QLD, 4177 posts
27 Jul 2011 11:11pm
laceys lane said...

teatrea said...

The best option for home generation is to use less


yep, however as a builder, well not doing much at the moment, i can see home power generation becoming part of the energy efficency requirements for new homes hence the question

this is one i haven't seen before www.freelectricity.com/

is it any good- no idea

cheers


Wont even look mate , their is no such thing as free electricity.Never will be
pweedas
pweedas
WA
4642 posts
WA, 4642 posts
27 Jul 2011 9:15pm
laceys lane said...

teatrea said...

The best option for home generation is to use less


yep, however as a builder, well not doing much at the moment, i can see home power generation becoming part of the energy efficency requirements for new homes hence the question

this is one i haven't seen before www.freelectricity.com/

is it any good- no idea

cheers


Noooooooo! Run away ,.. run away,..!
These 'free energy from magnets' magic tricks have been around for donkeys years. They produce no power at all. If they did then they would now be established world wide.
They are always "just on the verge of a big breakthrough". All they need is another 50 subscribers or whatever to raise the money to get it into production.

Anything using magnets and or gravity is operating in a conservative system. That is, what you get out is at best what you put in, less losses due to friction etc.
You can never get out more energy than you put in.

There are numerous U choobs on this one showing dynos spinning away producing free energy. There have been since U choob started. They have still gone nowhere and they never will.


Paradox
Paradox
QLD
1326 posts
QLD, 1326 posts
27 Jul 2011 11:21pm
laceys lane said...

teatrea said...

The best option for home generation is to use less


yep, however as a builder, well not doing much at the moment, i can see home power generation becoming part of the energy efficency requirements for new homes hence the question

this is one i haven't seen before www.freelectricity.com/

is it any good- no idea

cheers


I wouldn't be touching that with a 10ft pole. No such thing as free unimited power, especially with gravity and magnets.

It has scam written all over it - probably comes with a big hamster to run inside it.
laceys lane
laceys lane
QLD
19804 posts
QLD, 19804 posts
27 Jul 2011 11:26pm
i get the message
laceys lane
laceys lane
QLD
19804 posts
QLD, 19804 posts
27 Jul 2011 11:37pm
JayBee said...

I agree with Teatrea - remove the requirement to use it in the first place. The only way to really reduce your electricity bill is to reduce your baseload requirement. Google "Passive House" and "Zero Energy Building" for some really good insights on what having a small energy footprint is really about.

Small scale (domestic) generation - Solar in warmer climates, CHP in colder climates. Problem with Solar is the same as buying a computer. In a year there will be a cheaper more efficient option on the market and you will have invested a lot of cash in a (relatively) inefficient solution.
Large scale generation - my cash would be on Geothermal.

JB


interesting. i guess that what energy efficency requirements are heading which now require 6 stars.

while i'm behind in the science of it all, we came up to speed pretty quickly to work out the tables and which products did what etc to meet those requirements when it cost you money if you get it wrong. we had two houses in tugun that also had to have a accoutic/ noise level reduction report and target.

cheers

Trant
Trant
NSW
601 posts
NSW, 601 posts
28 Jul 2011 10:00am
pweedas said...

Ian K said...

From the gizmag link
"
Then, raise that tower up so that it's hundreds of meters in the air - because for every hundred metres you go up from the surface, the ambient temperature drops by about 1 degree. The greater the temperature differential, the harder the tower sucks up that hot air at the bottom "

Hmmm? Making gains from the adiabatic lapse rate? If this is an example of how well they've thought it through then they might not get as much power as they think.

Might just be the person writing the article.


Sshhhh! Don't tell everyone or no one will cough up the $750 million.

It is a bit puzzling though because they claim it works at night time and I don't see how that can happen just on the basis of the adiabatic lapse rate and that seems to be the whole basis for their claim.


My (limited) understanding was that the ground under the tower would be far hotter than the ambient temperature, increasing the difference. (In the video he states a temperature of 80 degrees if the ambient temperature is 40)
I would assume that the ground doesn't suddenly cool down as soon as night falls.



j murray
j murray
SA
947 posts
SA, 947 posts
28 Jul 2011 10:41am

what's wrong with using 12volt electricial goods, they do everything nowdays.

to my mind 240 volt is overkill
felixdcat
felixdcat
WA
3519 posts
WA, 3519 posts
28 Jul 2011 9:38am
j murray said...


what's wrong with using 12volt electricial goods, they do everything nowdays.

to my mind 240 volt is overkill

Transportation is the issue. Electricity is ruled by the Ohm law. Voltage=Resistance x Amperage. This formula is set in concrete! Resistance is set, if you decrease Voltage you will increase Amperage and you will need massive wires to transport it, the other problem is Volt drop along the line, it is uneconomical!
felixdcat
felixdcat
WA
3519 posts
WA, 3519 posts
28 Jul 2011 9:48am
Nicolas Tesla was researching electricity production in a paralleled stance to the main flow (Thomas Edisson ?), his idea was to produce electricity very cheaply and transmit it without the need of wiring, He was made ridicule by the US coal lobby of the time that wanted coal produced power for a massive profit, who knows what would have happened if it had been left to research and had received some financial back up! I am not sure his ideas were totally crazy, the guy was a genius.
teatrea
teatrea
QLD
4177 posts
QLD, 4177 posts
28 Jul 2011 12:32pm
felixdcat said...

Nicolas Tesla was researching electricity production in a paralleled stance to the main flow (Thomas Edisson ?), his idea was to produce electricity very cheaply and transmit it without the need of wiring, He was made ridicule by the US coal lobby of the time that wanted coal produced power for a massive profit, who knows what would have happened if it had been left to research and had received some financial back up! I am not sure his ideas were totally crazy, the guy was a genius.


Some one should make a movie about this guy , He seemed Davinci like.How come some people are so smart , and others like me so dumb
felixdcat
felixdcat
WA
3519 posts
WA, 3519 posts
28 Jul 2011 11:26am
teatrea said...

laceys lane said...

teatrea said...

The best option for home generation is to use less


yep, however as a builder, well not doing much at the moment, i can see home power generation becoming part of the energy efficency requirements for new homes hence the question

this is one i haven't seen before www.freelectricity.com/

is it any good- no idea

cheers


Wont even look mate , their is no such thing as free electricity.Never will be

Are you sure of it
In Colorado Springs, where he stayed from May 1899 until 1900, Tesla made what he regarded as his most important discovery-- terrestrial stationary waves. By this discovery he proved that the Earth could be used as a conductor and would be as responsive as a tuning fork to electrical vibrations of a certain frequency. He also lighted 200 lamps without wires from a distance of 25 miles( 40 kilometers) and created man-made lightning. At one time he was certain he had received signals from another planet in his Colorado laboratory, a claim that was met with disbelief in some scientific journals.
Read more there!

www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm

Little Jon
Little Jon
NSW
2115 posts
NSW, 2115 posts
28 Jul 2011 1:49pm
teatrea said...

Vote for Abbott and take a step back , renewables are here and are viable.As much as Labour has stuffed up , at least they are trying.If nothing else at least the carbon tax will drive investment in cleaner energy.And Aus has the chance to be at the cutting edge , i hope we dont blow it.


I'm surprised the right wing don't launch a terrorist attack on the facility to help their corporate mates in the oil industry.
Little Jon
Little Jon
NSW
2115 posts
NSW, 2115 posts
28 Jul 2011 1:59pm
felixdcat said...

j murray said...


what's wrong with using 12volt electricial goods, they do everything nowdays.

to my mind 240 volt is overkill

Transportation is the issue. Electricity is ruled by the Ohm law. Voltage=Resistance x Amperage. This formula is set in concrete! Resistance is set, if you decrease Voltage you will increase Amperage and you will need massive wires to transport it, the other problem is Volt drop along the line, it is uneconomical!




Doesn't USA have 160 volt and euope 110 or something, much less chance of death upon electroction (overkill).
JayBee
JayBee
NSW
714 posts
NSW, 714 posts
28 Jul 2011 3:15pm
felixdcat said...

teatrea said...

laceys lane said...

teatrea said...

The best option for home generation is to use less


yep, however as a builder, well not doing much at the moment, i can see home power generation becoming part of the energy efficency requirements for new homes hence the question

this is one i haven't seen before www.freelectricity.com/

is it any good- no idea

cheers


Wont even look mate , their is no such thing as free electricity.Never will be

Are you sure of it
In Colorado Springs, where he stayed from May 1899 until 1900, Tesla made what he regarded as his most important discovery-- terrestrial stationary waves. By this discovery he proved that the Earth could be used as a conductor and would be as responsive as a tuning fork to electrical vibrations of a certain frequency. He also lighted 200 lamps without wires from a distance of 25 miles( 40 kilometers) and created man-made lightning. At one time he was certain he had received signals from another planet in his Colorado laboratory, a claim that was met with disbelief in some scientific journals.
Read more there!

www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm




You are joking right? This would be in direct contravention of the current beliefs held by some of the most influential people still living... www.theflatearthsociety.org/home/

JB
felixdcat
felixdcat
WA
3519 posts
WA, 3519 posts
28 Jul 2011 1:54pm
Little Jon said...

felixdcat said...

j murray said...


what's wrong with using 12volt electricial goods, they do everything nowdays.

to my mind 240 volt is overkill

Transportation is the issue. Electricity is ruled by the Ohm law. Voltage=Resistance x Amperage. This formula is set in concrete! Resistance is set, if you decrease Voltage you will increase Amperage and you will need massive wires to transport it, the other problem is Volt drop along the line, it is uneconomical!




Doesn't USA have 160 volt and euope 110 or something, much less chance of death upon electroction (overkill).


Europe is 220 v and USA is 110 V but 60 Hz the most practical setup is somewhere around 200 V /50 Hz. Part of Brazil is 110 but slowly converting to 220V, most ships are 110V. If you wanted to reduce the electrocution risk I guess the way would be to use DC current but totally un transportable and very hard to step up. The reason for 110V has nothing to do with electrocution risks. Electricity developed first in USA and it was the standard then and when it came to Europe it was found it was more practical to have a 220V network. Suburban transmission is done At 11 KV this high voltage allows (by reducing the amps) to utilise smaller section of cable. You can see electricity like water: large flow (Amperes) needs large pipe (conductors), voltage would be the water pressure and the size of the pipe the resistance of the line.
felixdcat
felixdcat
WA
3519 posts
WA, 3519 posts
28 Jul 2011 2:05pm
JayBee said...

felixdcat said...

teatrea said...

laceys lane said...

teatrea said...

The best option for home generation is to use less


yep, however as a builder, well not doing much at the moment, i can see home power generation becoming part of the energy efficency requirements for new homes hence the question

this is one i haven't seen before www.freelectricity.com/

is it any good- no idea

cheers


Wont even look mate , their is no such thing as free electricity.Never will be

Are you sure of it
In Colorado Springs, where he stayed from May 1899 until 1900, Tesla made what he regarded as his most important discovery-- terrestrial stationary waves. By this discovery he proved that the Earth could be used as a conductor and would be as responsive as a tuning fork to electrical vibrations of a certain frequency. He also lighted 200 lamps without wires from a distance of 25 miles( 40 kilometers) and created man-made lightning. At one time he was certain he had received signals from another planet in his Colorado laboratory, a claim that was met with disbelief in some scientific journals.
Read more there!

www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm




You are joking right? This would be in direct contravention of the current beliefs held by some of the most influential people still living... www.theflatearthsociety.org/home/

JB

Well I guess that it is the reaction of peeps wich are incapable of thinking outside the square, thank God Einstein, Tesla, Faradey, the Curies could do it! Some one said your mind is the limit can't remember who? but one of my favourite say was by the inventor of the helicopter Sykorsky to peeps that were bagging him
- By the law of physic the bumblebee can't fly but it is an uneducated insect so he doesn't know it and therefore fly!

Pffff ...... sorry for the lectures!
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
28 Jul 2011 2:22pm
Trant said...

pweedas said...

Sshhhh! Don't tell everyone or no one will cough up the $750 million.

It is a bit puzzling though because they claim it works at night time and I don't see how that can happen just on the basis of the adiabatic lapse rate and that seems to be the whole basis for their claim.


My (limited) understanding was that the ground under the tower would be far hotter than the ambient temperature, increasing the difference. (In the video he states a temperature of 80 degrees if the ambient temperature is 40)
I would assume that the ground doesn't suddenly cool down as soon as night falls.



Yep I think it works because air allows sunlight to travel through it without heating up, whereas the ground absorbs energy and gets hot.

I've personally proven the principle when flying a R/C glider in a thermal -- I'm sure you've seen birds circling in thermals as well. These are just uncontained bubbles of hot air that start off at the ground and rise up -- all the tower does is contain the thermal (and extract some energy from it)

At least that's my understanding
laceys lane
laceys lane
QLD
19804 posts
QLD, 19804 posts
28 Jul 2011 4:46pm
teatrea said...

laceys lane said...

teatrea said...

The best option for home generation is to use less


yep, however as a builder, well not doing much at the moment, i can see home power generation becoming part of the energy efficency requirements for new homes hence the question

this is one i haven't seen before www.freelectricity.com/

is it any good- no idea

cheers


Wont even look mate , their is no such thing as free electricity.Never will be


hey teatrea, when i found that item i bearly looked at it. i actually was thinking it was a wind assisted system

upon further perusing it does look a bit dodgy, but they do clarify the term free electricity

cheers

ps i never buy anything over the internet
teatrea
teatrea
QLD
4177 posts
QLD, 4177 posts
28 Jul 2011 7:30pm
laceys lane said...

teatrea said...

laceys lane said...

teatrea said...

The best option for home generation is to use less


yep, however as a builder, well not doing much at the moment, i can see home power generation becoming part of the energy efficency requirements for new homes hence the question

this is one i haven't seen before www.freelectricity.com/

is it any good- no idea

cheers


Wont even look mate , their is no such thing as free electricity.Never will be


hey teatrea, when i found that item i bearly looked at it. i actually was thinking it was a wind assisted system

upon further perusing it does look a bit dodgy, but they do clarify the term free electricity

cheers

ps i never buy anything over the internet


Dont blame ya mate , scams galore. One rule i follow , you get nothing for free. Oh and one other im sure youve heard before , if it sounds too good to be true , it sure as s**t is.
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