hardhat said...

Steve, only takes 10-12 hours to solo in an aircraft when learning to fly. Not sure I'd stick with 15-20 hours of stunt kite flying, sounds dull. I do see your point though, theres got to be a point where someone turns the kite the correct way without thinking about it when they're ready for the next step. Hope the guy is OK and the kite school has all t's crossed and i's dotted if he calls a lawyer.

Thanks for your POV on this important topic.
Yeah you make a good point, I just picked thos numbers out the thin air because I know it takes some people that long to get to be an "instinctive" flyer.
Lots take less time for sure.
However, the more kite flying on a trainer that aperson has done, the less they need to spend on lessons, in my experience.

Now my school has converted to water based and max 2 person per instructor with Headzone radio helmets, most people only need 1-2 lessons, 2 x 3 hrs lessons is the average, before they are ready to go it alone.

I also try to weed out the unfit wannabees, as much as possible when they first enquire, some only need to hear about jellyfish and they lose interest!!! LOL's

Too many folks with mainly $$$ as their prime motivation in the industry, in shops and schools and not sure that will ever really change much.

We still need to push the concept of ethical and sustainable instructon and growth as much as possible.

From a legal and even moral point of view, in my opinion, it would not be hard for a lawyer to demonstrate negligence on the part of an instructor or school, giving lessons on beaches, in groups of more than 2 students per 1 instructor. Especially if a student is handed a 5M or larger kitesurfing kite, when that student has never flown any sort of power kite before. Signed waivers will not get the instructor or school off the hook.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

Why dont these schools make students wear helmets it would be used for comunicttions as well as safty?should be part of the IKO safty teaching systemmaybe D.Marshall could coment?
Can we get response from schools even the school involved must be on these forums?

Hi Guys, This is my first post, and so far found some great information through the search function.
My question is: The children and myself have moved to Miami from Bayswater and my oldest is 12, is he too young to learn? I too would love to take up kiteing but am a little put off by this senario that has unfolded.
How do I establish what credentials the school I choose has? Is it rude to ask? Do I ask for 1 on 1 lessons (from what I have read) this is the best teaching method for results.
Thank you for all being so understanding.
Jenna

hardhat said...

Steve, only takes 10-12 hours to solo in an aircraft when learning to fly. Not sure I'd stick with 15-20 hours of stunt kite flying, sounds dull. I do see your point though, theres got to be a point where someone turns the kite the correct way without thinking about it when they're ready for the next step. Hope the guy is OK and the kite school has all t's crossed and i's dotted if he calls a lawyer.

fully agree with hardhat. stunt kite flying is the BEST way to start learning kitesurfing, some need 2 hours other 20...I am not an instructor, but an experienced kiter (5 years) and thought ~8 people sucessfully without any injuries... my simple personal rule: nobody gets to fly my kites (C kites) unless I have seen them flying a powerkite (loops and one handed) with their EYES CLOSED!!! for more than on minute... If they get bored I tell them to go home - but nobody ever got bored or doubted my rule, especially since they get to fly my little kite (and later bigger kites) for free... Unfortunately I understand, that this business case doesn't work for schools...

Haircut said...

i know folk here like to go to town over this sort of stuff so to be fair to the kiter and the school, regardless of whether he was teaching himself or having a lesson, when he got hurt he was in about 14 - 18 knots of wind and using the tiniest, piddliest little bow styled kite i've ever seen. my first practice was with a 7m in the same kind of wind and there was little chance it was going to do anything but drag me along the ground a bit, and i weigh only 65kg. the 7m kite dwarfed this thing he was using - the guy attached was easily much heavier than me. So whether he had the kite given to him or he chose to use that specific kite, apart from using a training kite which he was probably already beyond, and from practicing in the water instead of the sandbar, i can't imagine him being any safer off, and a helmets not going to save him bending his kneck badly landing on his head from any given height

The only time I have come close to being killed in kitesurfing was with a 5.5M kite.
14-18 knots of wind is plenty to hurt an inexperienced kiter.
If the person was in DEEP water, then the accident could not possibly have happened, and he could have been on a bigger kite, better simulating what a real kitesurfing kite will feel like.
All students should still be wearing vests and helmets, and we use radio helmets to help them learn even faster.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

Posted 8 hours, 32 mins ago
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Stick with qualified instructors and you will be in good hands. Check to see if they are qualified at www.ikointl.com (they only organisation for instructors recognized in Australia), ask to see their qualifications and insurance certificate before lesson. We show our certs to every student at the beginning of each lesson so he/she knows it is a lesson conducted by qualified instructor and fully insured. There are many cowboys out there teaching without qualifications, and without qualifications, they will have no insurance. You will also get an IKO card at the end of your lessons if the instructor is qualified, and the card not only recognizes your learning, it also contains the instructor's number and a whole list of benefits including discounted insurance.

12 is not too young to learn. We start teaching from 12 at our school.

Definitely 'One-on-One' is the safest and most efficient way to learn.

Happy kiting!



Thank you Padi,
I will be looking into it shortly,if I ever get to Brisbane Il be sure to say hi.
Jenna
P.S Where would most recomend Gold Coast or Brisbane?

Would be great to hear from the school/instructor involved .... save speculating. No matter who is right/wrong/liable there is ALWAYS a lesson that everyone else can benifit from

No doubt Darren is mighty busy, he does run a very, very well patronised school, amongst other things.
There has been a fair bit of banter Joe, but we cannot just speculate on what happened without hearing both sides of the story.

No-one wants to publicly lynch any instructor unfairly, despite what some people might think it is a tough job teaching people to kite, if you do it properly and professionally. Long day out in the weather often in conditions that would have any instructor drooling to go kiting.

Beach based lessons can be ok, provided there is a boat on standby. However water based lessons are best, by a long shot.
Beach based lessons often involve giving the student too small a kite, and so they are always walking back upwind, effectively wasting hafl their lesson time.
No-one is learning to kitesurf walking back upwind with a kite in the air.
Walking around with a kite up, especially for people with virtually no previous kite flying experience is stupid and dangerous, and the practice should be eliminated by all schools immediately.

My recommendation to all instructors and schools

1 -Make it a pre-condition to book a lesson that the person has flown a trainer kite, for several hours or more.
Sell trainer kites to supllement any lost income!

Follow IKO procedure, teach all relevent safety stuff and rigging, on the beach first, get the student to demonstate they can do it.

First flights (to basically assess flying skills) should be unhooked - NEVER hooked in, and a writs leash drop the bar safety system or similar should be used.

After that, an appropriate sized kite to allow the student to body drag upwind should be chosen and the lesson proceeds in the water, with an instructor in close proximity at all times. (even hanging off th harness of the student to demonstrate)

Find a place to teach in the water, as in deep water, and use a boat to allow the student to use a full size kite asap. There is no safety issue if the student is in deep water, and an instructor is nearby in a boat, with no obstacles downwind.

Students walking back upwind because they cannot stay upwind (which is only natural) are a real hazard to themselves and safety risk to all other beach users and kiters.

In deep water, boat escorted lessons, the student can be getting up on the board inside of a 1 x 3 hrs lesson, because they do not have to try to go upwind, and can try repeatedly to water start and ride, upwind comes later - plus they are not a hazard to any other water user or themselves.

Lessons are ideally done in 2's!!

Why, because people get tired easily, so it is good to swap them, getting them to assist in the swap over is teaching them launching and landing skills. We find most people last 15-30mins before they need a break.

The focus or sole aim, for any school or instructor should be to produce safety concious kitesurfers - not to make as much money as possible by running "Kitesurfing experience" type lessons to as many people as possible per hr/day.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

hardhat said...

Steve, only takes 10-12 hours to solo in an aircraft when learning to fly. Not sure I'd stick with 15-20 hours of stunt kite flying, sounds dull

Are you saying i can go buy a jet and teach myself to fly??? Awesome.Must be easier to do.

But i do agree with tonnes of stunt kite flying etc. I did it for about 4years until i was allowed to learn. Dam my malnurishment.

Jenna ... Any size power kite can spank you and a 3M 'could' be a big old handful to learn on, especially if you are green around the wings

I usually introduce my 'pals' on a 1.8 Beamer in less than 10K .. and even then it flies like a wasp.
Definitely chase the lessons first and whoever you choose ... make sure you are comfortable with them .... if you cant be relaxed you wont have a good experience nor will you learn as much

Good luck

jjameson said...

Went to 2 shops today and from the young service I recieved I personally did not get reassured about safety.
One shop service guy explained that I may be better buying a Liquid Force trainer kite first and practice in a safe area,my question is: Would a 3metre trainer kite be OK for us to learn on or should I try another school to teach us?
Jenna

My 2 cents worth. I have flown pretty much all the different kites over the last few years

dual and quad line foils (up to 6m buggy foils) and stunt kites. I started with 2 line delta stunt kites and think this was the best way to go. They are incredably easy to self launch, handle gusty wind conditions well and give you pin point control and doing tricks and stunts with them is a lot more fun them. The more fun you find them the more time you will spend flying and the more second nature the way kites fly will come to you. Unlike foils which are pretty boring to fly, all the ones I have flown have slower turn rates than the stunt kite equivilent (tend to collapse into a ball if you turn them to fast)

Plus you can give them to a child/nephew/neighbour when you move onto something else and not have to worry that they will hurt themselves. they are pretty damn cheap, just recommend if you buy a cheap one replace the lines with good quality one from a kite shop