Kitemare at Pt. Walter

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sir ROWDY
sir ROWDY
WA
5378 posts
WA, 5378 posts
19 Apr 2011 10:01pm
I have also tried to work with companies to make a bar legit, with ends similar to a wake handle. But everytime it comes back to people really want end winders... Which is so ****ing retarded because they are totally useless. It's like the wankers you see driving around in a honda civic with a huge spoiler...
moon waxing
moon waxing
WA
313 posts
WA, 313 posts
19 Apr 2011 10:23pm
For the record my kite is a 2011 Nomad.

I'd say all bars that I've seen have some sort of knuckle or groove design for the lines to locate when wound on to the bar. This line winding aid can contribute to the leash getting tangled.

I thought about a minimal bar end design with radius ends and no feature for winding lines on but I'm convinced it could and would still get tangled.

Footnote : I've just bought a Dyson Vacuum cleaner, every aspect of the design seems well thought through. Maybe kite manufacturers could get Mr Dyson to help them design control bars.
bluffo
bluffo
4 posts
4 posts
19 Apr 2011 10:29pm
Yeah, don't think I have seen a post where the brand was so tenderly praised and reassured before a bit of constructive criticism, bit like a toddler!!
**** ... big up and see the big picture.
This brand was mentioned because it happened to us on your kit, does not mean it's exclusive to you, but does mean that it is an issue for you. Jesus maybe we should have taken it up with Microsoft instead.
THIS SEEMS TO BE A GENERAL DESIGN ISSUE THAT IS USED BY MOST BRANDS, but it may well need improving (suicide leash and QR location on harness)
Sort it and we will buy it...whoever.
NSW, 4382 posts
20 Apr 2011 12:30am
Charl dv said...

oh my god read what i am writing steve and you will understand what I believe the issue is. go ****ing read my previous posts and you will clearly see i am not digging into ozone and i have actually ****ing supported them even though i have zero affiliation with them in previous posts. i am bringing one ****ing issue up that is of relevance and applies to all brands but for some reason seems to happen MORE on ozone kites.

how do i say this happens more, because a friend of mine i ride with (ABESY) i've seen this happen to on average a good 3 - 5 times a season in the past where it has happened to me maybe 5 times all up in the last 4 seasons. 3 out of those 5 were on an ozone kite and once on a LF kite and once on my airush. this seems average but seeing as maybe only 5% of my sessions have been on an ozone it shows.

now let me make this about as clear as i possibly can.

WHAT I BELIEVE is causing this problem is that GAP the ****ing GAP between teh float and the bar end. and also the fact the FLOAT moves easily along these lines making that GAP change. so when the leash hits that bar end or wraps around it gets trapped in that GAP and pins the line against the bar.

WHAT I BELIEVE reduces the chances on the airush bar from what i've seen so far is that there is NO GAP between float and bar end that exposes leader line and that the FLOAT does NOT MOVE easily so it CANNOT create A GAP! this obviously has not completely eliminated the issue but at least its reduced.

this is obviously a problem that is serious that ALL BRANDS should address and try to solve before some inexperienced person drowns themselves. I've pulled myself up the leash each time and untangled the bar to stop the loops, most of the time it WAS STUCK IN THAT GAP and on the airush it got stuck in front of the float.

you dont even need line winders to roll up your lines, you can just wrap them up oldschool, i'm putting wake handle ends on my bar so at least if the leash wraps around its got a smooth surface to slide over and no sharp edges to get snagged on.



This issue has nothing to do with "gaps" between a 3mm amsteel leader line and a VERY soft neoprene float, and nothing to do with Ozone bar ends specifically.
The problem as Rowdy and you know is the actual bar end itself, ANY bar end, the bar end is what creates the pivot point that the leash snags on.
You, Rowdy and several other people have stated it has happened on a wide variety of bars.

It is actually quite crazy for anyone to imply that myself or Ozone do not care about rider safety, nothing could be further from the truth. I am listening. We are listening, and we do have a highly evolved and improved bar coming. Will it stop any chance of a leash wrap situation? Probably not. Why? Because I think its virtually impossible to eliminate all risk and especially to engineer for rider error, completely. Riders at an elite level in any sport need to modify gear in order to make it perform for their very specific needs. Maybe short and endless/winderless, elite level bar will evolve from discussions like this?

@Spacemonkey - it would be a brave manufacturer that would produce a kite that does not turn well. The logical answer is to use a shorter bar and to remove anything from the ends of the bar that could catch a leash.

The leash has a safety release on it, make sure its release is in a position where you can ALWAYS reach it, or that you have the presence of mind to unhook the leash from the bar end.

sir ROWDY
sir ROWDY
WA
5378 posts
WA, 5378 posts
19 Apr 2011 10:35pm
moon waxing said...


I'd say all bars that I've seen have some sort of knuckle or groove design for the lines to locate when wound on to the bar. This line winding aid can contribute to the leash getting tangled.

I thought about a minimal bar end design with radius ends and no feature for winding lines on but I'm convinced it could and would still get tangled.



Did you even read what I wrote... I wonder about people on here sometimes.
I clearly stated I used to ride a bar that I customised myself with wakeboard handle ends (i.e. no grooves for winding lines) and this never happened to me over the 8 or so years I used that kind of setup... Recently I have been using a bar with endwinders and it has happened to me.
p.s. I still dont use the endwinders even though I have them. Wrapping around the bar is faster and your lines don't slip off and get tangled in travel.
terminal
terminal
1421 posts
1421 posts
19 Apr 2011 10:51pm
bluffo said...

Secondly and most importantly a fool proof method of attaching the quick release to the harness that can be reached instantly while doing the backwards taco tango.
It happens so quickly that you're in the air flying backwards instantly and that makes it difficult to locate the QR even if tethered to the side ring such as on my Mystic Firestarter (industry standard)
This is not just an unhooked handlepass move problem. Happened to me hooked in while riding waves and attached to the side ring.
It may well be better to be dragged and launched backwards but to still be able to release easily from the front of the harness seems best.
Possibly a short line sewn into the harness connecting the QR to a pull toggle in front as a standard harness feature would do the trick for a static tether. Don't know how it could be done for sliding leash though.


I dont handlepass, but I have fitted one of these to my harness. Its easy to fit and does the job.

http://www.kiteitright.com/accessories/lines-n-leashes/mystic-quick-release-handle-pass-system-p-5600.html

The mystic foam covered leash looks to me like it would make it less likely that the leash would wrap, provided it was fitted at the chickenloop end of the leash and than have an elastic extension to the back of the harness if necessary.
The open clip can trap a line, so the locking carabiner would avoid that problem.

All of these were mentioned earlier in the thread.

Abesy
Abesy
WA
266 posts
WA, 266 posts
19 Apr 2011 10:54pm
raaaaaage
sat night after 12pm

i have personally never heard of anyone getting injured from this but it has the potential to. no company atm is goin to change bar designs for a rare few who are actually at a level where this becomes a problem. prob best go change it urself and deal with the consequences if u don't.
sure gives u the motivation to make the pass

plus there are other ways to wrap up your lines that are just as quick once u change the bar end. i only got as far as cutting the bar down which proves just how much i care about the problem and it happens to me more than anyone else. u could say that i have perfected the backwards kitelooping drag.

on a serious note u should not be kiting that close to downwind obstacles when trying these sort of tricks cause there are heaps of other things that can go wrong that can lead to similar consequences.
Charl dv
Charl dv
WA
2485 posts
WA, 2485 posts
20 Apr 2011 12:46am
^^ this is correct.

KP you're still just reading what you want to read and not thinking about it practically. It's hard for me to sit here and describe what i am trying to show you without having a bar in my hand to demonstrate how and why i think what i think. I am simply going off my experiences and drawing my conclusions based on them.

once again never said it never happens with anyone else just mentioning i've seen it more on one certain bar.
once again never wrote the brand off saying it's **** or anything of the sort, like i've said in many posts all over the joint i really like ozone kites and think they are great, this was always just one issue i've had with it. In my books an issue with bar design is pretty minimalistic compared to issues other brands have.

problem on the ozone bar (mentioned due to it being the type of kite she flies) that makes it happen a lot is that shape of the bar end, it acts like a slide (i'm referring to the very tip of the bar end) so when the leash lands on top of it instead of slipping off away from the bar it gets directed in towards the bar, that in combo with the gap between the float and the end leaves a good space for the leash to snag in (explain why i think it causes an issue). the airush bar has the same bar end but i've never experienced this yet (touch wood) and i think its mainly to do ith the floats going right up to the bar end (my thoughts on what's physically different on the set ups that can have an affect, (OUTSIDE DIAMETERS while still slack, i can show you on the beach one day if we ever see each other again what i'm trying to get accross.) and leaving no line exposed. perhaps try slide your floats right down against the bar (A possible solution to try and see if it helps, clearly shows i'm not just slagging at anything i'm thinking about what causes an issue and i'm offering solutions to trial).

this is one type of end though that i really think should get revised/replaced with something a little less catch friendly IMO. (a reference to the bar end on it's own, suggesting it needs to be revised, not mentioning a single company, its in a new paragraph as well. this generally means that the physical end itself should be modified by ANY COMPANY that uses it to make it safer.)





but what ever steve read it how you want and you have sooooo much more experience so maybe you're more credible so this pretty much is where i'm ending it. <lol
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
20 Apr 2011 7:32am
Maybe I'm missing something here,

But why not just use a below the bar safety system (flagging line goes through the bar), with a very short leash?

One of my kites has this, and it seems to work quite well.
Spacemonkey!
Spacemonkey!
SA
2288 posts
SA, 2288 posts
20 Apr 2011 9:21am
Kitepower Australia said...

@Spacemonkey - it would be a brave manufacturer that would produce a kite that does not turn well. The logical answer is to use a shorter bar and to remove anything from the ends of the bar that could catch a leash.



I think you will find Steve that most dedicated wakestylers have been trying to find a slow turning kite for years and would be quite receptive of it. Unfortunately with people like Ruben and Hadlow being heavily influential on kite design and the craze of kite looping kites have become faster and faster (obviously theres a place/market for these kites, to my knowledge there are not many brands that have a dedicated wakestyle kite that turns like a truck).
NSW, 4382 posts
20 Apr 2011 11:42am
Spacemonkey! said...

Kitepower Australia said...

@Spacemonkey - it would be a brave manufacturer that would produce a kite that does not turn well. The logical answer is to use a shorter bar and to remove anything from the ends of the bar that could catch a leash.



I think you will find Steve that most dedicated wakestylers have been trying to find a slow turning kite for years and would be quite receptive of it. Unfortunately with people like Ruben and Hadlow being heavily influential on kite design and the craze of kite looping kites have become faster and faster (obviously theres a place/market for these kites, to my knowledge there are not many brands that have a dedicated wakestyle kite that turns like a truck).


Have you been around long enough to remember the Wipika Inferno? I think a couple of other brands tried their hand at this style of kite and got severely burned.
There are just not enough of you out there to justify any brand making a slow turning truck kite. Old Fuels, Yarga C's etc, get one wack your wakehandled bar on it and voila there you have your perfect kite.

Or get a boat.


Spacemonkey!
Spacemonkey!
SA
2288 posts
SA, 2288 posts
20 Apr 2011 12:24pm
Kitepower Australia said...


Have you been around long enough to remember the Wipika Inferno? I think a couple of other brands tried their hand at this style of kite and got severely burned.
There are just not enough of you out there to justify any brand making a slow turning truck kite. Old Fuels, Yarga C's etc, get one wack your wakehandled bar on it and voila there you have your perfect kite.

Or get a boat.





I'm talking about recent history and yes I agree on the size of the market being small (mainly people that unhook). Also saying get a boat is trolling at best.. Although I don't expect you to understand because your a shop guy that has never really gotten into it.. I don't think you can solve this problem just by bar modifications, and I think everyone would agree it is pretty hazardous.
sir ROWDY
sir ROWDY
WA
5378 posts
WA, 5378 posts
20 Apr 2011 11:12am
nebbian said...

Maybe I'm missing something here,

But why not just use a below the bar safety system (flagging line goes through the bar), with a very short leash?

One of my kites has this, and it seems to work quite well.


Because if you have ever tried that, you would have found that recovering your kite from that 30 or more times a session is a real pain in the @ss.
Flux
Flux
WA
533 posts
WA, 533 posts
20 Apr 2011 3:12pm
What about manufacturers adding a quick release system to the HARNESS at the front?
In this case when you can't release as in this incident, you could pull a cord/turn a mechanism etc, or whatever near the spreader bar and release the whole harness from your waist preventing your demise this would be a valued addition to the systems already in place.
Just a thought.
stamp
stamp
QLD
2800 posts
QLD, 2800 posts
20 Apr 2011 5:28pm
nebbian said...


But why not just use a below the bar safety system (flagging line goes through the bar), with a very short leash?



if you're passing the handle the leash needs to be long enough to wrap once around your body and still have enough slack/length to hold the bar comfortably.

and as rowdy said, a flagging line is a pain in the arss, better to ride suicide if unhooking a lot
terminal
terminal
1421 posts
1421 posts
20 Apr 2011 4:39pm
Flux said...

What about manufacturers adding a quick release system to the HARNESS at the front?
In this case when you can't release as in this incident, you could pull a cord/turn a mechanism etc, or whatever near the spreader bar and release the whole harness from your waist preventing your demise this would be a valued addition to the systems already in place.
Just a thought.


Some manufacturers already do - Ocean Rodeo Session is an example.

And you can modify most harnesses to do it with this:-

http://www.kiteitright.com/accessories/lines-n-leashes/mystic-quick-release-handle-pass-system-p-5600.html
Charl dv
Charl dv
WA
2485 posts
WA, 2485 posts
20 Apr 2011 7:28pm
the LF harnesses do as well, and i think maybe ion does it. so does mystic.
AquaPlow
AquaPlow
QLD
1066 posts
QLD, 1066 posts
21 Apr 2011 12:23am
Great to get the point out and chucked around. Thxs SHAN

As the bulk of the points above indicate - for any safety issue focus on the things you have control over. The bar design and the leash length / stiffness / padding, the looping speed of the kite.. etc are variables but not fool proof.

If you can't reach the release just that once U might need it... then remove the risk.
The simple solution is to get a release in the system which is always in reach. So as per above get a harness with it built in.

I am happy that my kid's first harness (LF) as mentioned has a quick release built in to the handle pass loop. When I first saw it I thought 'WTF' (I am a trick-less duck foot) but put the harness on and fiddled a bit and decided -ok likely a good idea.

My 2 yr old ION harness doesn't but the only handle pass I do (and am ever likely to) is emptying kit out the boot of the car. The leash - that's directly on the harness - now as long as I do not damage my right arm - I should be able to get that.

Play smart - to play safe.
AP
SlicerDicer
SlicerDicer
179 posts
179 posts
18 Jun 2011 12:55pm
Last sunday I had about a 30 loop death loop :( I will post video later.
radman4
radman4
678 posts
678 posts
18 Jun 2011 2:57pm
The griffin bars have the same end caps as the ozone bars and in the past i have also experienced the kite going into an uncontrolable loop scenario,as the leash in the past had got jammed between the end of the bar and the float,griff have now put a stopper ball on top of the float with a ring that forces the float hard down onto the bar end so there is no gap at all ,so if the leash whips over the float it just slides off,since using these new bars for the last 12 months have never seen or heard of the problem arising,would be an easy addition to any bar,can post a pic if anyone wants to see it.
Charl dv
Charl dv
WA
2485 posts
WA, 2485 posts
18 Jun 2011 9:04pm
radman4 said...

The griffin bars have the same end caps as the ozone bars and in the past i have also experienced the kite going into an uncontrolable loop scenario,as the leash in the past had got jammed between the end of the bar and the float,griff have now put a stopper ball on top of the float with a ring that forces the float hard down onto the bar end so there is no gap at all ,so if the leash whips over the float it just slides off,since using these new bars for the last 12 months have never seen or heard of the problem arising,would be an easy addition to any bar,can post a pic if anyone wants to see it.


oh wow look at that... i think i was just proven right... BOOOOOOOOM
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
18 Jun 2011 11:21pm
waveslave said...

It's interesting to note that not one poster in this thread thus far has used the term 'safety leash'.
The INDUSTRY refers to it as a 'safety' cause they like feeding consumers marketing bullsh1t.
A kite-leash is not a 'safety'.
The terms 'safe' and 'safety' in regard to kiting is retarded.
Kiting is dangerous, it has risks, risks that we all accept.
Kiting will never be 100% risk free.
If something is 'safe', it is completely 100% risk free.
Please don't refer to a death-leash as a 'safety'.
This practise only encourages the INDUSTRY to be complacent and lazy,
self-satisfied with themselves in the fact that they have a third-rate kite management system.




The INDUSTRY likes to give consumers plenty of choice with 'safety' systems.
You can connect your death-leash to a single front line,
or both front lines,
connect it to a single back line maybe,
attach it to a 5th line,
or a mini-5th perhaps,
how about sheeting out to kill power,
or sheet-in (over sheet) to kill it,
what about using a push-up QR,
maybe a pull-down QR,
or a twist grip QR,
a finger trigger pull pin might be cool.

In an emergency, you don't have much time to think.

Spacemonkey!
Spacemonkey!
SA
2288 posts
SA, 2288 posts
19 Jun 2011 1:56am
Spacemonkey! said...

I am a total bell end


Well said
Puetz
Puetz
NT
2186 posts
NT, 2186 posts
19 Jun 2011 10:28am
waveslave said...

waveslave said...

It's interesting to note that not one poster in this thread thus far has used the term 'safety leash'.
The INDUSTRY refers to it as a 'safety' cause they like feeding consumers marketing bullsh1t.
A kite-leash is not a 'safety'.
The terms 'safe' and 'safety' in regard to kiting is retarded.
Kiting is dangerous, it has risks, risks that we all accept.
Kiting will never be 100% risk free.
If something is 'safe', it is completely 100% risk free.
Please don't refer to a death-leash as a 'safety'.
This practise only encourages the INDUSTRY to be complacent and lazy,
self-satisfied with themselves in the fact that they have a third-rate kite management system.




The INDUSTRY likes to give consumers plenty of choice with 'safety' systems.
You can connect your death-leash to a single front line,
or both front lines,
connect it to a single back line maybe,
attach it to a 5th line,
or a mini-5th perhaps,
how about sheeting out to kill power,
or sheet-in (over sheet) to kill it,
what about using a push-up QR,
maybe a pull-down QR,
or a twist grip QR,
a finger trigger pull pin might be cool.

In an emergency, you don't have much time to think.




[}:)]

... time to think, exactly thats why we have the system that will beat all!

A mate of mine came up with this fool proof system but has hit a brick wall!Developement is at a stalemate.

A.R.S.E. or if sold in the US, A.S.S. Automatic Rectal Safety Eject or in the US, Anal Safety System.

It is basically a butt plug and when you **** your self, your arse (ass) clitches and ejects the safety, to either a 5 line or 4 line system. We have problems with test pilots so the system has hit a brick wall at this stage. We just can't get any one to test it. With this system, no one has to use any hands, no push nor no pull and even no twist, its hands free. How good would that be!

If we get some one to test it, we will let you know, we're excited about it but after 2 years now, we are struggling.

We will keep at it and we will keep you posted!

cheers,

Robbie


sebol
sebol
WA
753 posts
WA, 753 posts
19 Jun 2011 9:31pm
Of course, it would be a pleasure to expirement with your invention and in fact as prince Tumbu of Ghanna, I would like to contribute $25 000 000 towards the refining of your great product.
Could you please let me know your full name and bank details and I will promptly make arrangements to forward the payment.
Puetz
Puetz
NT
2186 posts
NT, 2186 posts
20 Jun 2011 11:28am
...eeeeexcellent, now I can pay someone to test it!
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