Notice to Noobs!

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AKSonline
AKSonline
WA
925 posts
WA, 925 posts
26 Nov 2011 3:17pm
Dear Noobs,

Firstly, Please do not come into our shop and ask us to sell you the cheapest 2nd hand kite and harness, BEFORE you have had lessons. We will not sell it to you under any conditions.

Secondly, Please do not get the sh1ts on because we wont sell you a kite before lessons, and no, your mates teaching you will not suffice. You are welcome to go to other shops and try with them, that's cool with us.

Book a lesson with us, or any other reputable school, THEN come and see us for your gear and we'll be happy to fit you out with some kit.

This year it seems that people feel, more than ever, that they do not need lessons. You are wrong in this thinking. In this day and age, everyone needs lessons from a qualified school or instructor.

Thanks,

DM
Smithy
Smithy
VIC
859 posts
VIC, 859 posts
26 Nov 2011 7:19pm
I am sensing a high level of frustration and totally agree with the sentiments behind the posting. Unfortunately the majority of second hand gear is sold online with some sellers happy to sell their old gear irrespective of its true condition and whether or not it really is appropriate for the buyer.

I too have sold my gear online but have probably talked myself out of more sales than I have made. On numerous occasions I have told the prospective buyer to have some lessons first and then work out what is right for them. On more than 1 occasion I have turned down a sure sale.
Mr float
Mr float
NSW
3452 posts
NSW, 3452 posts
26 Nov 2011 7:53pm
Nice sentiment Darren but I don't think they will be reading your post . Most of the people that you would like to communicate this to are over at buy and sell or flea bay .
dave......
dave......
WA
2119 posts
WA, 2119 posts
26 Nov 2011 5:11pm
Great post Darren, awesome responsibility shown by a guy that aint just a shop pimp. BTW he's the Southern hemisphere's instructor's instructor and knows what hes talking about and wants to keep beaches open. Friend lessons are when someones good enough to help you with a few tips and tricks, ie. your first backroll, NOT to teach you how to fly a potential down-wind helicopter into kids, or objects that hurt. That takes a real instructor.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Biggest-looser-at-kite-beach/

DONT BE THIS GUY!!!!!!

May I offer a suggestion Darren, also duplicate this in the newbies tricks and tips
Paul1
Paul1
QLD
1011 posts
QLD, 1011 posts
26 Nov 2011 7:20pm
I taught myself and then made my own kite with the guidance of http://www.mademan.com/mm/how-make-kite-surfing-kites.html. I really don't see what the fuss is all about ????
dave......
dave......
WA
2119 posts
WA, 2119 posts
26 Nov 2011 5:27pm
^^^^^Scarcasm is funny....sometimes, except when your life and others depends on it
rhinoman
rhinoman
QLD
362 posts
QLD, 362 posts
26 Nov 2011 8:31pm
AKSonline said...

Dear Noobs,

Firstly, Please do not come into our shop and ask us to sell you the cheapest 2nd hand kite and harness, BEFORE you have had lessons. We will not sell it to you under any conditions.

Secondly, Please do not get the sh1ts on because we wont sell you a kite before lessons, and no, your mates teaching you will not suffice. You are welcome to go to other shops and try with them, that's cool with us.

Book a lesson with us, or any other reputable school, THEN come and see us for your gear and we'll be happy to fit you out with some kit.

This year it seems that people feel, more than ever, that they do not need lessons. You are wrong in this thinking. In this day and age, everyone needs lessons from a qualified school or instructor.

Thanks,

DM
touche dm ,i too have had the same ..go get a lesson ;i am at the point were if you are an idiot an think its easy .then **** it .i will hot launch you if you give me the thumbs up next time .......thats why there called kook proof connectors...
jjd
jjd
WA
705 posts
jjd jjd
WA, 705 posts
26 Nov 2011 7:34pm
Came in at scabs/contacio to sort out lines after dropping kite.

Old mate on white and green rebel gets dragged up beach heading to ring lock fence and saved by dropping kite (not by design) on sand dune.

After going to help, he tells me it is his second time!

He is on a 10m kite!!!

Don't necessarily blame him, but IF the guys that came up to help him afterwards are his mates, FFS, what are you doing letting him put up a kite in this arvo's winds, let alone a 10m ???

(and yes, I did say something at the time!!!)
Smithy
Smithy
VIC
859 posts
VIC, 859 posts
27 Nov 2011 1:28pm
Mmmm... Not sure deliberately giving someone a hot launch is quite in the spirit of the original posting. If you don't think the person has the right experience or gear to be going out, refuse to launch them but make sure you tell them why.
rhinoman
rhinoman
QLD
362 posts
QLD, 362 posts
27 Nov 2011 1:23pm
Smithy said...

Mmmm... Not sure deliberately giving someone a hot launch is quite in the spirit of the original posting. If you don't think the person has the right experience or gear to be going out, refuse to launch them but make sure you tell them why.
no its at that point ,were they will find out the hard way .that a lesson might of been a good choice,,,,,thanks a lot u tube

Lorgra
Lorgra
WA
215 posts
WA, 215 posts
27 Nov 2011 11:55am
As a newbie I agree.

Lessons are an absolute must.

As someone who has done years of sailing people just don't understand what sort of power the wind can generate and being hooked to a kite is dangerous.

When I was young, although not compulsory, my parents enrolled me in sailing classes. Progression through different classes was essential.

When I first did lessons through AKS I was led to believe that some sort of accreditation from IKO was issued on completion of the three lessons.

Maybe this needs to made legal for people to kitesurf. If you can't produce a ticket, no kitesurfing.

On the subject of second hand kites. My lessons were at the end of last season and after lessons and some research I bought a second hand Core 10.5m.

Big mistake. To big for me, lines out of whack. Didn't want to stay in the air. A couple of times while launching the kite would swing down wind almost knocking people down. I decided a new kite was a better option and after a slight tweaking of the lines from the guys at AKS all is good.

I kite at Pinnaroo and notice that more experienced guys tend to set up around the AKS van while guys like myself set up upwind near the dog beach.

Inevitably, we end up drifting downwind amongst experienced guys and the windsurfers. The kite guys are patient and look out for you but you can see the windsurfers getting cranky. I usually make my way in before I reach them and make my way back along the beach and start again. A shorter version of the walk of shame.

Can I suggest perhaps an exclusion zone of say 100m along the beach to make things a little safer and to allow new members of the community to get some practice in. Yesterday I saw a guy practice a jump close to shore, he went down and kite came down hard on the beach almost taking out an instructor and a student.

Just a little food for thought.

Happy kiting.

GalahOnTheBay
GalahOnTheBay
NSW
4188 posts
NSW, 4188 posts
27 Nov 2011 9:38pm
Smithy said...

If you don't think the person has the right experience or gear to be going out, refuse to launch them but make sure you tell them why.


+1
puppetonastring
puppetonastring
WA
3619 posts
WA, 3619 posts
27 Nov 2011 6:51pm
GalahOnTheBay said...

Smithy said...

If you don't think the person has the right experience or gear to be going out, refuse to launch them but make sure you tell them why.


+1


+ another 1.
I love the guys who come into the shop having bought a kite off flea-bay asking if there is a book or DVD to help them get going.
Yeah right. One was even cheaky enough to ask if he could just borrow one and bring it back when he'd watched it.
And when u start the speil on lessons (that they dont want to hear) the very first comeback is almost always, "Oh yer but im not going to go in the water till I know how to fly it." Yeah right - just stay where its most dangerous. DOH.

No lessons/no experience = no kite. Should be every shops rule.
And the no launch every kiters rule.
seafever17
seafever17
WA
360 posts
WA, 360 posts
27 Nov 2011 7:45pm
Really good to see the tarp floggers leading from the front.

And kiters why bother teaching your mates???

How can anyone have the patience for that? I would so much rather give the spiel "nah mate, I like you to much to teach you ...go and get proper lessons from a professional so you dont get killed by my crap lessons"


Plus another reason,

I find the kitesurfing season in Perth is to short for teaching mates
Smithy
Smithy
VIC
859 posts
VIC, 859 posts
28 Nov 2011 7:38am
Personally I have absolutely no objections to mates who are experienced kiters teaching mates to kite, that's how we all did it. Their lessons last more than an hour or so and they usually help when it comes to buying the right gear.

What I do object to is one mate having 1 lesson and then thinking he has the skills to teach the rest of his mates, they all buy the wrong gear online and try and teach each other in the wrong blustery conditions or in the middle of the life saving club swimming zone!!!
superlizard
superlizard
VIC
702 posts
VIC, 702 posts
28 Nov 2011 8:46am
I reckon sooner or later we'll get regulated by water authorities... at which point some kind of licence may be required...

Just did my boat licence, and the official study material already covers kiteboarding/kitesurfing and by law we should all be wearing PFDs according to the official rules... it's just that this is not heavily enforced yet...

dbabicwa
dbabicwa
WA
809 posts
WA, 809 posts
28 Nov 2011 11:16am
superlizard said...

I reckon sooner or later we'll get regulated by water authorities... at which point some kind of licence may be required...

Just did my boat licence, and the official study material already covers kiteboarding/kitesurfing and by law we should all be wearing PFDs according to the official rules... it's just that this is not heavily enforced yet...





Hm, I do no recall compulsory driving lessons for the driving license in WA or anywhere else in the country?

So no, I do not see how would kitesurfing be worse the driving on our roads?

YOU (me) might be not competent to teach your kids how to drive:)

And yet, we are doing it...

superlizard, to be correct, right, PFDs are needed how far from a shore? :)
Zed
Zed
WA
1274 posts
Zed Zed
WA, 1274 posts
28 Nov 2011 11:25am
superlizard said...

I reckon sooner or later we'll get regulated by water authorities..




Which is probably a good thing, less people on the water and fewer spanners.
Jared888
Jared888
WA
389 posts
WA, 389 posts
29 Nov 2011 1:25am
HMM im conflicted here, you wont sell them gear if they want to learn themselves
I learnt myself from you tube tuitions mostly, and never had any dramas, i have taught a few people without issue or "qualification" I' ll let them know not to bother about seeking gear through ur outlet

I recomend seabreeze web site for purchase of second hand kites and boards thats were i got all mine from and have been happy, so fk AKS there not the be all and end all

AKSonline said...

Dear Noobs,

Firstly, Please do not come into our shop and ask us to sell you the cheapest 2nd hand kite and harness, BEFORE you have had lessons. We will not sell it to you under any conditions.

Secondly, Please do not get the sh1ts on because we wont sell you a kite before lessons, and no, your mates teaching you will not suffice. You are welcome to go to other shops and try with them, that's cool with us.

Book a lesson with us, or any other reputable school, THEN come and see us for your gear and we'll be happy to fit you out with some kit.

This year it seems that people feel, more than ever, that they do not need lessons. You are wrong in this thinking. In this day and age, everyone needs lessons from a qualified school or instructor.

Thanks,

DM


superlizard
superlizard
VIC
702 posts
VIC, 702 posts
29 Nov 2011 7:44am
dbabicwa said...

superlizard, to be correct, right, PFDs are needed how far from a shore? :)


The boating handbook contains the following, and then immediatelly after they list the types of boats where wearing PFD is only required at hightened risk etc... so to me this seems like it's meant to be worn all the time... Kiteboarders are placed in the same category as jetskis, canoes etc... and i'm pretty sure people always had to wear PFDs on those type of craft...

Victorian recreational boating handbook - page 20

When wearing of PFDs on recreational vessels is required at all times

All occupants of the following vessels are required to wear a specified
PFD when in an open area of a vessel that is underway:
• Power driven vessels up to and including 4.8 metres (m) in length
• Off-the-beach sailing yachts
• Personal watercraft
• Canoes, kayaks and rowing boats
• Pedal boats and fun boats
Kite boards and sail boards
• Recreational tenders.


I'm not saying I agree nor that I would necessarily abide with this rule
AndreC
AndreC
WA
512 posts
WA, 512 posts
29 Nov 2011 8:05am
Yeh I was self taught and after teaching a few friends I found myself feeling responsible if they hurt themselves or someone else. Not to mention having to baby sit them for atleast 3 lessons. I send everyone looking to start to pro kite lesson.
a) they cant turn around and blame you when **** goes wrong.
b)more time for me on the water.
c)its been proven that friends wont heed your advice as seriously as from a coach they dont know.
d) you dont have to feel as responsible for them when they are kooks.

And whilst it may come off fine most of the time its the one time when ya mate kiteloops a grandma and it ends up on Today Tonight is what we are all trying to avoid.

Another thing enuf with all this kitepimp Bool****...these guys are just trying to run a business in the sport they love and knowone is forcing you to buy off them so stop being so sensitive to people promoting cool products. Pinheads.

Without guys like Darren that make you feel welcome when you start the sport noobies would come on this forum and think twice. pS didnt do lessons with aks, bought one harness off them. But respect him because he always gave me the time of day and his help and time when I was starting out. He even helped me tune a kite I bought second hand off of here. Darren IOU a beer.
Jared888 said...

HMM im conflicted here, you wont sell them gear if they want to learn themselves
I learnt myself from you tube tuitions mostly, and never had any dramas, i have taught a few people without issue or "qualification" I' ll let them know not to bother about seeking gear through ur outlet

I recomend seabreeze web site for purchase of second hand kites and boards thats were i got all mine from and have been happy, so fk AKS there not the be all and end all

AKSonline said...

Dear Noobs,

Firstly, Please do not come into our shop and ask us to sell you the cheapest 2nd hand kite and harness, BEFORE you have had lessons. We will not sell it to you under any conditions.

Secondly, Please do not get the sh1ts on because we wont sell you a kite before lessons, and no, your mates teaching you will not suffice. You are welcome to go to other shops and try with them, that's cool with us.

Book a lesson with us, or any other reputable school, THEN come and see us for your gear and we'll be happy to fit you out with some kit.

This year it seems that people feel, more than ever, that they do not need lessons. You are wrong in this thinking. In this day and age, everyone needs lessons from a qualified school or instructor.

Thanks,

DM





poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
29 Nov 2011 8:11am
I guess its all very well teaching your mates.

Just depends where.

If i was running a kite school, paying my trading fees to the local council, paying my insurance etc (as i am sure all kite schools do ) and some numby came to the beach i was teaching at with his mate i'd ask that person to either stop or call the ranger.

If they have an accident or take out punters on the beach makes the school look bad.
Juddy
Juddy
WA
1103 posts
WA, 1103 posts
29 Nov 2011 8:21am
The advice in this post hits the nail on the head IMO.

Kiters also need to take responsibility when selling kites however - if I sell a kite on E-bay/gumtree etc, at what point does my responsibility stop if a newbie purchases the kite?

If selling through Ebay etc, kiters must take some responsibility to ensure that the kite is actually being purchased by someone who knows what they are doing. A few probing questions about experience & skill level to the potential purchaser wouldn't be too difficult & would sort newbie from experienced - and save us all from a world of grief....
Subculture
Subculture
443 posts
443 posts
29 Nov 2011 8:58am
Juddy said...

The advice in this post hits the nail on the head IMO.

Kiters also need to take responsibility when selling kites however - if I sell a kite on E-bay/gumtree etc, at what point does my responsibility stop if a newbie purchases the kite?

If selling through Ebay etc, kiters must take some responsibility to ensure that the kite is actually being purchased by someone who knows what they are doing. A few probing questions about experience & skill level to the potential purchaser wouldn't be too difficult & would sort newbie from experienced - and save us all from a world of grief....


Well said Juddy,

I'll be selling an older kite in a few weeks. It's going to have 2 prices.. A couple of hundred dollars if buyer can prove lessons/experience. About $1000 if they've none [}:)]

It only takes a few seconds and one clueless hero to tarnish all of us.
Plummet
Plummet
4862 posts
4862 posts
29 Nov 2011 9:09am
I understand the motive but don't agree with the plan of attack.

By refusing to sell and sending people out of the shop you are not improving the learning process of that customer. Simply shifting the blame to someone else. Yet at the same time yourve had a chance to change their mind set and haven't.

Theres 4 phases of the learning process.

unconcious incompetence. you don't know what you don't know
concious incompetence. shhiit it is hard
concious competenece. i can do it but need to think about it.
unconcious competence. i can do it without thinking about it.

Now all you need to do is take these guys from unconcious incompetence to concious incompetence to convince them they need a lesson.

So i prepose this. Don't send the bargain hunters off out of your store empty handed. Inflate the price of your cheap kite by a couple of hundred and offer kite and starter lesson. In that lesson you have time to take them to the next step. Even if it requires hooking them into the big kite and scaring them a little with the power. Surely thats a better option than simply sending the blokes to buy kites elsewhere and and injure them selves.

RPM
RPM
WA
1549 posts
RPM RPM
WA, 1549 posts
29 Nov 2011 9:23am
Plummet said...

I understand the motive but don't agree with the plan of attack.

By refusing to sell and sending people out of the shop you are not improving the learning process of that customer. Simply shifting the blame to someone else. Yet at the same time yourve had a chance to change their mind set and haven't.

Theres 4 phases of the learning process.

unconcious incompetence. you don't know what you don't know
concious incompetence. shhiit it is hard
concious competenece. i can do it but need to think about it.
unconcious competence. i can do it without thinking about it.

Now all you need to do is take these guys from unconcious incompetence to concious incompetence to convince them they need a lesson.

So i prepose this. Don't send the bargain hunters off out of your store empty handed. Inflate the price of your cheap kite by a couple of hundred and offer kite and starter lesson. In that lesson you have time to take them to the next step. Even if it requires hooking them into the big kite and scaring them a little with the power. Surely thats a better option than simply sending the blokes to buy kites elsewhere and and injure them selves.




+1 Darren. Price of kite includes a lesson. (factor a beginner DVD and a lesson into the kite price) making sure that it's stated on the price tag.




jsnfok
jsnfok
WA
899 posts
WA, 899 posts
29 Nov 2011 11:32am
the lessons i had were fantastic, frlom safety through technique they are worth there weight in gold, or oil, or white truffle, or B00Bs
graceful
graceful
WA
773 posts
WA, 773 posts
29 Nov 2011 11:52am
I also am self taught and didnt have any real problems. That said if i had to do it again id get lessons! My learning curve was ****e to say the least, nearly gave it up a few times and with lessons i would have saved a few repairs to my rigs crashing a schools kites. After lessons i wouldnt have let a seabreeze user sell me a 05 C kite because it was good for beginners!!

4 years of kiting later plenty of friends want me to teach them, and i will but when it comes down to, they are not using my new quiver to learn, and we have to travel away from crowds to wedge or similar they arnt to keen :)
madsailor
madsailor
QLD
71 posts
QLD, 71 posts
29 Nov 2011 2:38pm
i don't think most noobs actually know what "noobs" means
eppo
eppo
WA
9793 posts
WA, 9793 posts
29 Nov 2011 12:42pm
Yeh a difficult one this one. Been kiting for 11 years, taught one person, my brother, but on isolated beaches with no-one around. I had lessons 11 years ago by Ian Young on two line LEI, then foils, and he was a stickler for safety, and I must admit i've inherited the same ideas, hence never had a bad incident in 11 years... you wait tomoz it's all going to sh1t.

mmm what to do...
LHB
LHB
WA
13 posts
LHB LHB
WA, 13 posts
30 Nov 2011 9:41am
Having all stores regulate the industry by not selling kites to learners works pretty well for the dive industry so perhaps we can learn from that.

I disagree with teaching people though, I paid for lesson from one of these reputable schools and it was well average to say the least. Alot of schools have good kiters but average instructors. Good kiters dont always make good teachers. For every good school like AKS theres another 3 **** ones! The industry as a whole should put some more time into developing better teaching methods that all schools follow. Regulated by waksa or some other body that has no financial interest but goes in to Audit the schools.

Another thing would be not to charge so much. $750 to learn to fly a kite is quite alot of money.
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