I think that a lot of it has to do witht he shops being able to sell last years kites so cheap. How can you compete with a new kites for so cheap!

eg
Cabrinha Crossbows 9m, 12m, 16m was $1890 - $2230 now $1420 - $1670

That means a secondhand one needs to be atleast $200-$300 cheaper before anyone would concider it as an option so a 16m bought for $2200 now has a max resale value of $1400 but probably less

anyway thats my thought!

You cannot expect kites to hold there value after a year of use.The way I look at it , if you buy a brand new car the second you drive the car out of the dealership you have already lost a few thousand dollars , its exactly the same as kite.In the end the more people that get into kiting the more kiteshops will open and prices will come down its called competition and I think it is already starting to happen.No one should pay full price for a kite you should always be able to get at least 10 to 15 percent of retail price.The only thing that will ever hold its value and increase in value is bricks and mortar the rest just keeps depreciating.

Is it because sponsored guys sell off flogged-to-death-all-day-everyday-on-the-beach gear cheap (as it cost them zero).

To newbies this gear probably seems to be identical to the same gear sold by someone who REALLY has only been used 5-6 times.

A big hello to the scarborough sponsored guy who tried to flog me a harness a cpouple of seasons ago, that was literally coming apart at the seams for $40 less than a new unit. Oh yes I believe all of your kites have only been used 5 times (boy the sponsers must be peeved their gear never gets wet)

Now before anyone gets their knickers twisted we all know this happens heaps and no names have been mentioned so ..... take a big breath and r e l a x .

NEWBIES take note - if it aint nice and crispy you a being bull**ed

I agree that kites depreciate the second they touch the sand, everything does. It's the amount of depreciation thatI think this thread is about. If the value level is kept high (at normal retail) then the resale level is kept high (in relation to the 2nd hand market). If you discount everything by 10 - 15%, thenyour resale of the item used has to be 10-15% lower than what you would normally expect to get! Let say in a perfect world your kite was worth 70% of it's original cost. a $2000 kite would sell 2nd hand for $1400 (and they used to too!), if every one gets a 15% discount then a new kite would cost $1700, probably making it impossible for a 2nd hand kite to sell for $1400, so you'd have to drop the price! Hence "kites not holding value". Now if you bring into the market that a new consumer (someone who would normally buy your second hand kite) sees a brand new kite (cheap shyt) for $1200, then obviously they are going to think that the 2nd hand market should start out at around $840. Now the Newby may or may not know about brands and premium, styles, but once a price is set in someones mind, it will alter their discision where the product is better or not. So I guess "kites not holding value" has been done by all of us (the market as a whole)!

Anyway, like I said, it will all work it's self out in the end, they always do!

JB

i guess another problem is that people long ago realised that so called premium brands do not offer better quality or better performing product than so called kmart brands. so people who arent so gullible dont want to pay the same money for a second hand kite that is equivalent to, or not as good as, another brands model brand new... <let the flaming begin>

also, every brand of kite wears out relatively quickly (eg compared to boards), unless you are talking about foils. they bag out, tear easily, and you often will not have a guarantee as to how they were treated by the previous owner. this is why flysurfers and arcs hold good value and lei's dont.

There's heaps to comment on here.

My, opinion, it's the age of the internet and globalisation.

There's simply no room for distributors and shops to sit back and
enjoy fat GP's anymore. People are too consumer savvy.

The people who seem to gripe about the whole situation the most are the team/shop rider guys who get flung some free or demo kit as they will be the first one's to miss out ultimately when the meat isn't there anymore to share.

It's a hard topic with many different views.

My view is pretty well known to people who know me.

The whole reason I rep for the brands I do and have a kiting business as a sideline was my belief in inflated prices and people getting ripped off and bad advice from retailers who had little experience or knowledge. Unfortunately they are still around with many victims in the past and no doubt in the future.

We'll always have the different avenues around, just got to deal with it.

A classic example to me is how Cab went direct to shops this season, giving more profit to them and in turn them pushing the brand more.
Has the punter been better for it as far as good kit? Well, that's a whole new debate!!

My advice to shops. Put small mark up on your sporting equipment and large mark up on your fashion accessories. A good retail survival balance.
And, disregard the 2nd hand market, it's too subjective with many differing points and not your core business anyhow.

I don't think you always get what you pay for.

Example: $200 Gucci sunnies break just as quickly as those that cost $5 at the markets. $15 shorts in Kmart are EXACTLY THE SAME as those in City Beach for $60 with a brand name stitched.

So maybe Gucci and City Beach spent lots of dollars researching the markets and trends, and the cheaper versions are riding on their coat tails. It's not always fair, but product is no different and money talks.

I havent mentioned kite brands coz I haven't made up my mind if the Kmart kites are equal or not, point is: do your research before you buy.

Happy long weekend!

Well, with respect to some people that "think" they know why kites do not hold the value that they want or expect, what you are saying in this thread is BS, and you have been misled or brainwashed.

I have 15 years experience in the kiting industry, and have seen it all happen right up until the present. I have also been retailing most of my working life, and have had a variety of retail shops spanning over 30 years. It is pointless and irrelevent to compare what has and is happening in kiting to what did and is happening in windsurfing. Sure there are some similarities, but there are more disimilarities too.

The number 1 reason for kites not holding value is the glut of suppliers, brands, distributors, dealers, etc and the extremely disorderly way that the products find their way to the consumer, some via a traditional distribtion chain (some of the loudest squarks and misinformation flows from this source), some via a direct to retailer model ( these guys are where the really good deals are generally), some via a direct to consumer model, and some via an amateur distribution network which is a nice way of saying via team riders, people with shops in their homes, and selling from the boots of cars.

Combine this excess and disorder with the fact that there simply are not enough kiters to go around, to soak up this excess demand. Therfore prices fall because all the people in the disorderly marketing positions all need to quit stock at any price to pay their bills up the chain. Its called market forces, it is not because of any particular brands, dealers or shops, that is just excuse making nonsense.

I purchased 2 computers this week, total outlay approx $2800, what do you think I would get for them on Ebay, 50%, 40%, probaly even less!!!
Those same computers would have cost me at least $1000 more less than 2 years ago, and the depreciation then was just as bad.

I purchased a new JVC video camera that sells new for $1000, for $299 at an auction, but this auction was flooded with the same model, so they went cheap, good for me, and still good for the shop as they moved redundant stock and maintained some cash flow at a tight time of the year.

Its time people stopped spouting misinformation, babbling forth nonsense that they hear their boss moaning about, or that they dream up over a beer or several.

The major brands of a few years ago are mostly not major anymore, and now there is a new bunch, most of which have noticed a weakness in the business model being adopted by those former majors and they are exploiting that to gain market share, who's fault is that, the newcommers or the complacent former big brands?

If people want a good deal, they should shop around, and then give their local the opportunity to compete, if that does not happen then shop where your dollar goes furthest. Another viewpoint would be to support the retailers who actually do know about what they are selling, who do stock demo gear, who do know how to fix and service any kite quickly, etc, etc.

A cheap price will be forgotten long before good service when it is needed.

And kites really do not last long, maybe a few years max, plus look at the redundancy from new models and technology, add to that unsustainable distributors, retailers and other resellers and it certainly is a buyers market!!

Just keeping it real, and at least the young people who will sustain this sport into the future can now afford to get into the sport!!

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

I reckon a few things are important factors and it has not much to do with brands, shops or team riders, it's just the way it is with a lot of things we spend our hard earned cash on.

1: The usefull life cycle of a kite to 99% of the kiting population is not very long, so like the computer we are all siting at which cost between 1000 & 2000 it will be worth nothing in about three years, so they both depriciate far quicker.
On top of that just like a PC the new kite you can buy in two years will outperform and be safer than todays models.

2: As oppossed to a kite, a bike, boat or car will last many times longer, so people who buy second hand ones are willing to pay a higher price because they will get a few years use out of it and still be able to sell it.
Imagine buying a one year old car for 75% of it original purchase price knowing that in two or three years you would have to give it away because the paint is fading, it has rust, the engine is worn out and smoking, the hoodlining is falling down, the brakes don't always work when you use them.

3: Demand & Supply
More people want newer kites which means more second hand kites, but not as many people want them.

My 10cents worth
ric

I reckon you've all missed the mark IMHO
Resale of kites is the second hand market and has nothing at all to do with shops mark up, sponsored riders,distribution methods etc.
Kite surfing is such a new sport and as such is being developed right in front of our very eyes. The changes in kite technology are moving so fast we haven't got a hope of keeping up.
I did loads of research last winter before buying my 2 new kites (which are brilliant) but who will pay me $2500 for a couple of 05 model 'C' kites without one pump or
cam battens or 100% depower or cuban fibre or curved wing tips or .....
surely the issue is more about everyone wanting to have the latest technology, and not wanting to buy old stuff.
You cant force the market up. Last year I bought a brand new 'top ' brand kite used it 15/20 times in the season and then advertised on seabreeze - week after week NO calls. Dropped the price, Dropped the price again finally (after about 4 months and countless rewriting of my ads ) I got 1 call , and accepted about 30% of what I had paid for it!
Market forces or supply and demand are what dictate the resale market and until kites stop being improved at each new model release then you've got to accept the devaluing.
solution: buy well and keep your gear until you out grow it, the reason my boosts aren't 6m high and I cant do backroll moby handlepasses with a pike isn't 'cause of my kite.
IMHO

To Nige,

Hey mate, we are in the beginners market in tuition and I can tell you the only kites that hold value, boards too, is the beginner market stuff.

Getting hold of quality beginner suitable kites and boards is very difficult and prices remain high. Trying to sell high performance gear is the problem. The market is too small for the amount of gear available.

PLenty of bginners out there and lots of unscrupulous sellers happy to convince a beginner to buy an X2 as their first kite for $500 bucks jus to get rid of it....shame!

Kites just don't last and there is too much of a glut of new gear every year, thats why gear doesn't hold it's value.

My 2 cents worth,

Good winds,

Also there is a lot of people especially in Melbourne who come down to st kilda from the suburbs see kite boarding and think wow that looks so like so much fun get one or two lessons from instructors that tell them they will be up and riding in no time, so they go down to the local shop spend up on brand new gear and when there not up and riding in three lessons like promised the give up and sell there gear dirt cheap. If the kite boarding schools tried to get the beginners to bye second hand gear first maybe they might hold there value a bit more and create a better second hand market

Steve, was your post directed at me? LOL;-)

I agree with many of the comments in this thread, and I am not trying to sway anyones opinion. Some people believe in the system, and others do not, we should sometimes agree to disagree.

Price and value for money! Very hard to define. Yes you can buy a kmart kite that looks the same, probably flys very similar (if not the same) but costs a lot less, this is because they only had to do half the work. A big company spends hundreds of thousands on R&D to get their final product, they need to cover these expences or at the least cover their back by using a distribution system to minimize the risk. By doing this importers use their capital. A smaller/newage/kmart (what ever you want to call it) company sees these new designs/concepts (whatever) and copies them to a degree,boasting about how their product is as good as that one! But they did not have to out lay hundreds of thousands of $$ designing it, this leaves them available to take a bigger risk in selling it because they are not going to loose as much is they don't totally sell through, so they use a more direct selling system, higher margins or lower retail price, but the company takes all the risk.
Now this would seem like the big brands are getting ripped off, i guess they sort of are! But they will always come up with the innovations first, and probably be the only ones that properly understand it!
Now you might be thinking why would you buy a premium brand then?
In my opinion,they fly and react better and they are generally better quality, especially the actual material. The Nylon cloth used in the canopy is very important! (look at cuban fibre!!) there are many different types of Nylon cloth out there, some cheaper than others, some with different properties than others! But they all look the same(well very similar)! I know that this year a certain company(s) used a different cloth to normal, and it was cheaper, and more readily availble at the time (not going to mention brands). This allowed them to get their product on the market earlier than if they waited in line for the cloth that most others are using! Where as other brands have stuck to their guns with quality first and waited in que to use a better quality cloth at a slightly higher price. Now the effect of this will not be seen for a while, but eventually your going to notice that your kite starts looking different, the seams will seem to be pulling a bit tight, thats because the cloth has stretched and the resigns have started prematurely breaking down. Conclusion is that at first glance two kites could look the same, fly the same, one would be cheaper, but one will last alot longer in it's intended foil/shape.

As for kite prices are still going down, They won't be soon, unfortunately all the materials used to make kites, bags, boards, ...., ... ,... are byproducts of crude oil! Which you might all have noticed is getting a bit expensive at the moment. I don't see the price going down any time soon either. Having only just had a glimps at the 07 cost prices tell me that everything is going to go up! Which like it or not, has to happen. Every year there is a 3% increase across the board, wages, rent, most of your overheads. so naturally prices should go up too, but they haven't. since the start of kiteboarding, prices are been pretty stable. I think things are about to change. People need to make money, if not shops will close, there fore most schools will close, making kiting hard to get into and dangerous. I guess you could stick to your guns on price, earn little for each kite but eventually, your going to run out of customer. Then what? if your only making $100 bucks a kite, you would ahve to sell a thousand kites to make it worth while. times that by the 40 odd shops in Aus, do you think there is 40,000 kiters in Aus? ($100 was just a random figure, easy to multiply, may not actually be true) where as if the shop made a normal margin, then they might only have to sell a reasonable number of kites (not going to let out figurs). Anyway!!

On a different note,

Here's a challange, call up your local figre glass supplier and ask to buy some carbon! Firstly they will probably ask if you have an account, and if you don't bad luck. if they do allow you to buy some take note of the price, Ouch!!! and thats only for a metre! There is a world wide shortage of carbon, this makes it expensive! so I guess boards will have to go up.

Anyway, it's been too much of a bible on this topic. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and the market is going to do what it's going to do. My only advise as a experienced kiter is fly as many kites as you can, even if your not in the market to buy one, spend a bit of time looking at the quality of construction of different brands, look for innovations in construction, feel the material (generally a higher grade Nylon has a type of silicon coating, and will feel slippery, a cheap cloth will feel dry and crisp), be true to your findings in performance (alot of the time it's easier to list what you didn't like about the kite, all kites fly pretty good these days), use this to make your judgement, not price (but obviously your purchase may have to go off price, this is sometimes unavoidable, but al least your judgement of IYO the best kite was made without price in mind).

Anyway blah blah blah,

Regards,

JB

"Steve", Well, with respect to some people that "think" they know why kites do not hold the value that they want or expect, what you are saying in this thread is BS, and you have been misled or brainwashed.

I have 15 years experience in the kiting industry, and have seen it all happen right up until the present. I have also been retailing most of my working life, and have had a variety of retail shops spanning over 30 years. It is pointless and irrelevent to compare what has and is happening in kiting to what did and is happening in windsurfing. Sure there are some similarities, but there are more disimilarities too.

"macker" steve with respect to you, people are intitled to have there say on these forums thats what there for, so please dont come on here and say that there opinion is BS, we are all kitesurfers buying and selling gear so we all have a view on this.
Steve as a shop owner you put yourself in the firing line but this is not just a cheap shot at you, just my opinion. i would have alot more respect for you if you come on here as "steve the kitesurfer" not "steve the shop owner".
macker

There are a few widely held misconceptions here.

No.1....Young people are the future of the sport.

This is not true.There will always be over promoted youngsters ,but the bread and butter of the industry has been,the way I see it,people aged twenties upwards.Thirties,forties,fifties. They can go and do it and have cash .You also have to be organised to go when its windy.

Kitepower Steve,who are your best customers?
Reading the other thread about Contras(THE latest and greatest expensive toy)guys like Moritz seem to be.

One day the youngsters turn thirty and look for a new buzz instead of surfing when its totally blown out in the afternoons after work.Not to mention the rabid local crowds.

No.2...Another misconception is that kiters are short of cash and cant afford the gear! Rubish!
Kiting is a lot cheaper than boating,hotted up cars,jet skis etc.

When I buy a kite,it does not bother me at all to pay a few hundred extra to get what I want. If its only a coupla hundred for a brand new crisp one with all the extras,I gladly pay it.I believe that a second hand kite is too risky,and not really worth anything.

If its only a couple of hundred extra for what I feel is a "premium brand" with the latest design ,I gladly pay it!

I believe that the Forums are not representative of what is really happening.Many of those complaining about the cost of kites probably paid much more for the computer on which they type.

You will often find that the guy at the beach that buys the cheapest second hand kites ,has a brand new stereo that costs more than his kites.Or a fancy boat or house or car!

Its all about prioroties.