Did anyone take pictures? I want to see!

here's one from Sunday at Pt Henry - the riding was outstanding.

www.seabreeze.com.au/gallery/gallery.asp?imageid=1116

theres no doubt he should have won, lets just put it this way that kid could get up there and he had some serious guns as well....my golly they were good.

Steve, from your point of view purely as a judge, I can see that for you it's easier to judge and on paper it's easier to mark and take critisicms for your decisions using the priority bouy system.

For a competitor the PBS sucks because out of the 10 - 15 minute heats, you get maybe 3 runs if you don't try anything risky and if you do try something and crash hard, which most national level riders do, then you have 2 measily runs in what ever wind conditions there happens to be for your run and that's it. Your supposed to do your 5 best tricks in 2 tacks in and two tacks out in whatever conditions you get. You know if you've ever thought about pulling something and then thought the waters too choppy, or the wind is too strong or too gusty, in the PBS it's too bad for the riders cause there is no chance to wait a few seconds and you have to pull it and risk crashing and loosing 30% of your time on the water which sucks the most.

So you can see the PBS system is the easiest way to judge 100% of moves thrown 100% of the time. It discourages riders from trying anything the can't stick and disadvantages riders that end up getting gusty winds in 1 of their only 2 or 3 runs. It also takes ages (10-15 mins per heat) for only 1-2 minutes total riding for the riders.

To clarify the Vic nats this year did have a head judge who made the boarderline calls when required, not only that but in the last heats there were up to 6 riders judging who were very skilled themselves.

At the end of the day even though on paper a slim is worth more than a back mobe, you have to rely on your instinct and overall impression sometimes. If the back mobe is more powered than it is probably more difficult.

It's easier for a judge to remember when he's only judging two people that one person a is going better and remember what big moves he has pulled over the other guy, compared to the PBS where he is required to put his head down and tick up spins, height, rolls , passes, loops etc and forget about who he thinks looks better out there on the water. Usually there is a clear winner and if not you discuss with the other judges and pick one, and if the heat is close, then win or loose you know your about the same level as the guy you kited with.

This year the rider actually got 6 - 8 minutes, enought time to actually judge the conditions , find somewhere nice to jump, and to do 3 times the riding time being judged, in almost half the time of last year so allowing the double ellim to be completed in much less time. And your not punished for trying to wow the crowd by either stomping or crashing you biggest moves whilst last year that was an almost instant loss as you then cut your runs by 30% if you crashed hard and lost your board.

So I'd be suprised if there are any riders out there that would prefer a third the riding time (2 minutes) over six minutes of freestyle time to do what you came to do, rather than what suits the PBS in order to land 5 tricks. Just take a look at how many big handlepass attempts, L3's etc happened this year verses last year. I almost think adam was the only rider trying handlepasses in his heat last year.

The result was similar to last year with adam, rich, and dan making the top 4 again so judging the PBS can't have made that much of a positive impact really, given the huge competitor drawbacks it has.

I was involved with the organisation of the Gero Nats and supported the introduction of the PBS .

However after reading dachoppers comments I have to totally agree with him .

A comp should give the riders oppertunity to show their best .
It should allow the riders to progress through competion rather than be conservative .
It should make it worth watching for the spectators .

If these factors make it harder to judge that is unfortunate .

If we don't satisfy the riders needs first they are simply going to stop competing .

Sounds like KBV did an awesome job and all the riders were pretty happy .
Congratulations to all involved .

Mike Bergman
Vice pres WAKSA

I am all for the fairness thing and droping your kite during a manouvere and the potential hi consequence is a big bummer I am unsure what the answer is, I am unsure what is fair, - but how many attempts should you have at the high bar... during competition if You snap a surf board stuff a manouvere, crash your car whatever you are in the poo! - time not the format is your biggest enemy

It probably reflects whos the strongest in those conditions right their and then but also kind of puts a real perspective on what the level of riding is at strict competition level. - You kind of see the same guys in the top places each year so far even with both formats - IMO some people are symply not competition people and dont perform under competition pressure, but are easily as good as the top placed riders.

The mambo format (of previous years) is the kind of format that gives you progressive riding.

good topic

quote:

---

Originally posted by CarlBevo
good topic

---

Absolutely - this is a brilliant topic.
Lets see everyones input - all riders - all judges - & organisers.
And make sure that 07 is done the best way possible - whatever that may be

were are the 07 nats. VOTE 1 LANCELIN WA. would have to be the best spot in oz for a wave and freestyle nats combined, not as windy as gero and widier than perth

Firstly, This Nats went the smoothest I have seen yet. Well done KBV and the team!

I do see the need to have recorded scores in competition, and I do like the concept of the PB. Understandably, wrong equipment choice can work against certain riders in PB competition, but it is competition! Why do you think Lou was never a world champion! He was (is) clearly the best rider in the world! A coment made earlier that Rat wasn't L3 ing last year in competition, it was 35 knots!!! **** that! The fact that it is risky to pull those big moves in competition brings more value to the move if exicuted, If every one has ample time to try their slim or whatever, than odds are they may finally get it (after 3 or 4 attempts), were as the better competitor may pull it first time! It doesn't mean that one can or can not do a slim, it's that one can pull it out of the trick bag when ever they want! thats a better competitor! Alot of the coments from riders are that it is too hard to use the PB system, or there's not enough time being scored! There is alot of competition out there that only give you one try at your move! if you stuff it, bad luck til next year. I'm not saying we should go this way, but it does give alot of cred to those show casing the top moves in competition.

I know alot of riders don't like scoring because it gives credit to variety and can take away for incredible moves, but we should want this sport to go to a 1 move competition. I beleive that competitors should have to show that they are addiquate in all styles of kiteboarding, even to the extent were they are required to perform at least one trick in each catagory.

Anyway, good to see people caring and generating input!

speak soon,

JB

quote:

---

Thanks for your input, I hope this discussion can help you see things from a broader perspective though?

---

But are you seeing things from a broader perspective Steve? The perspective of a rider?

I too enjoyed the format this year and would probably not ride with a PBS format. Competing is stressful enough without making it to complicated.

But more than enjoying riding under the format this year, I really really enjoying watching the boys going hard, it was exciting/thrilling and really got me amped up having 4 guys in the judge zone together, throwing down everything they could, over watching one guy taking his turn, then the next guy. It was a real battle against each other!! Awesome!! I think creating this atmosphere is important to create something a spectator wants to watch and will draw the crowds. I compare it to a V8 race, every car is trying to get the fastest lap to get them to the front of the pack, but they don't go out one at a time, they are all on the track together, makes it much more exciting!

Saying that, I don't think we will ever draw a crowd like the football, one reason being the locations we travel to, like Port Henry , and also the weather factor playing such a large part that it makes the sport unreliable, so lets try and make these events all about the riders, so they enjoy it and get what they want from them!

I agree with having a more structured scoring system, and think having a separate scribe who is not judging is a great idea! Frees up the judges to do what they have to, and also provides a record of the heats and then numbers can be applied for those who like it that way.

We are also talking about the Freestyle nats, imposing to many rules takes away from the meaning of freestyle! IMO

At the end of the day, you are still going to get a result no matter the format, and not every person is going to be 100% happy 100% of the time.

Just glad we got good wind! A great result and a great crowd of riders!

Thanks again KBV!

The whole point of the priority bouy is to score every trick, according to what you've written one person at a time. And your knocking the 4 man, 2 on 2 heat caus you believe that 2 judges will miss a move or two out and this is unfair..

Can you just tell me how the judges have been writing down there scores in a 1-5 rating in up to 4 or 5 different coloumbs , while looking at a guy pull tricks as fast as he can in the square without looking down at the paper and missing anything?

vs 2 judges staring straight at 2 people that are withing 50 meters of each other if and when they are jumping at the same time in the zone.

I agree for all the number crunchers out there that haveing a score sheet to back up moves is a clear cut way to place a ranking in a heat, not necesarilty by ticking roll spin loop etc coloumbs which is incredibly time consuming , but haveing a scribe scribbling moves for the judges who are watching 100% of the time.

I'm not just saying I'm against the PBS..... I'll tell you what i feel is pro's and cons of both

1. wind drops to intermediate level during heat and your haveing problems going upwind enough to get from the bottom of the square to the top, PBS, you need to get out and run back up the beach or tack out and back for minutes and you now only get 2 runs maybe 3 in with a 4 man heat, 06 method , you can spend your time throwing stuff in the center / bottom of the box. end result is PBS will waste your precious time by making you have to tack all the way upwind in lighter conditions and if you can only hold you ground then potentially spend all day running up the beach and then wait at a bouy for your next turn waisting more time. 06 lets you throw anywhere in the box, and lets you tack back and forth in the box still getting scored.

2. 05 nats judging sheet said on it that ONLY your top five moves will contribute to your score aswell as style/variety. so as i said before, if you can do 7 or 8 really high scoring moves, vs someone who can do 5, your score doesn't realistlcally reflect that, sure your style or variety score marks up the end score but it's not the same as actually adding on another 3 high scoring moves and marking your style / variety scores.

3. PBS only 1 person is being scored at a time. End result is 100% of moves for that person will be recorded. and 70-80% of that persons heat time is him tacking outside the scoring zone and waiting at the bouy, yippeeeee doooo! did i mention that some people have travelled 3000kms to ride for 2 minutes in the scoring zone... 2 MINUTES , for a few thousand dollars in transport and accomodation, yay what fun! 06 nats you actually get to compete in your heat at the same time, for the entire 100% of your heat time during your heat. so if we were to make these 15 minute heats like PBS, you would get about 4 to 5 times the ammount of trick time in there so even if the judges MISSED a massive mind boggleing 80% of your tricks and i recon the number would be more like 20% MAX , you would still have more moves to be scoreds off than the PBS, ask any competitor would you like to be scored for 2 minute, or 15 after travelling all that way, and only ask the competitors caus it's about them and giving them a ranking and 2 minutes to pull all of your tricks isn't enough time. it takes the same time if not less to complete the 06 draw as the PBS and lets the riders do up to 54-5 5 times the tricks, which is the whole reason they came there in the first place.

4. PBS only get a tack in and a tack out. that means maybe even only 1 max 2 transitions before the judges won't look. too bad if you have a lot of transitions cause youl only have time to do 1 definate per run and only get 2 or 3 runs in anyway

5. I come in on 1 of my only two or 3 runs after sitting at the PBS and outside the scoring zone for 70% of my heat time, and the wind picks up and drops off for my run. PBS too bad so sad, this gives different conditions for each rider as no-one even gets a chance to compete in the same gusts or lulls at the same time as the other riders, your talking about fairness, well where's the fairness in that. 06 nats your riding the same time as the other guy so you get the same weather and it actually is as fair as it can be and much fairer for giving everyone the same conditions to deal with than the PBS

6. I throw something big and crash big. PBS.. can't get your board back on and riding in 10 or so seconds, congrats you now have 1 or maybe 2 runs left , and the rest of your run doesn't count, no scoring. go back and wait at the priority waiting bouy. so for whatever reason if that was your first run, you now have 1 or 2 runs to hit your 5 biggest moves, probably about 1 minute or so. 06 nats, the jump doesn't count, get on with your life and the rest of your heat time (12 minutes) you are still scored.

I could probably go on for ever, but the flavour of the 06 nats is you get the same heat time as PBS but time 4-5 times the scoring time of the PBS and zero waiting time. You get equal wind conditions which is actually fair unlike the PBS which can give you anything and everything as far as changing conditions go. PBS gets you 100% of tricks scored and 06 may not but since you have time to pull 4 or 5 times the ammount of tricks IMO that more than compensates I believe.

Really if every1 loves the scoring sheet why do you need 4 judges watching 1 person if there all going to mark down the same thing on the black and white fair scoring sheet seeing as they are watching all of the moves all of the time. Couldn't you just have a judge per rider marking down their moves, and then a 5th judges who watches the riders competeing and ranks their style,? a sheet of paper isn't going to let you judge style completely you need to just watch and stand back? and if they did this for the 06 style comp then I could't see any advantage the PBS has over the 06 at all but still see there are major drawback such as minimal riding time, and differing conditions, and given you have 4-5 times the rinding time under the 06 nats , this effectively cancells out the 1 time per tack you may cross and cant jump for 5 seconds, and remember the zone is massive you can have two people at each end easily doing their jumps downwind of each other and never hit.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Missy

quote:

---

Thanks for your input, I hope this discussion can help you see things from a broader perspective though?

---

But are you seeing things from a broader perspective Steve? The perspective of a rider?

I too enjoyed the format this year and would probably not ride with a PBS format. Competing is stressful enough without making it to complicated.

But more than enjoying riding under the format this year, I really really enjoying watching the boys going hard, it was exciting/thrilling and really got me amped up having 4 guys in the judge zone together, throwing down everything they could, over watching one guy taking his turn, then the next guy. It was a real battle against each other!! Awesome!! I think creating this atmosphere is important to create something a spectator wants to watch and will draw the crowds. I compare it to a V8 race, every car is trying to get the fastest lap to get them to the front of the pack, but they don't go out one at a time, they are all on the track together, makes it much more exciting!

Saying that, I don't think we will ever draw a crowd like the football, one reason being the locations we travel to, like Port Henry , and also the weather factor playing such a large part that it makes the sport unreliable, so lets try and make these events all about the riders, so they enjoy it and get what they want from them!

I agree with having a more structured scoring system, and think having a separate scribe who is not judging is a great idea! Frees up the judges to do what they have to, and also provides a record of the heats and then numbers can be applied for those who like it that way.

We are also talking about the Freestyle nats, imposing to many rules takes away from the meaning of freestyle! IMO

At the end of the day, you are still going to get a result no matter the format, and not every person is going to be 100% happy 100% of the time.

Just glad we got good wind! A great result and a great crowd of riders!

Thanks again KBV!

---

G'day Missy
Thanks for your contribution. I am a rider, I ride every day that I can, but I am not a competitive rider, never was and never will be.

However, events are not just about riders, although I agree that they have to reflect the desires of the majority of the riders for sure, but don't forget that there would never be any events if it were not for the hard work of a whole bunch of people, like those from KBV, who do not compete and also never will.
If it were run and organised only by competing riders for riders, then I doubt it would ever happen, it would just be an endless series of meetings and arguments at best!

The Nats are primarliy meant to be a means of determining the best of the best. Sure if you have a bit of spono money you can do lots of other things, but like you said its weather dependent and in my experience with wind based events only 1 in 7 is a ripper, another 2 will be ok and the rest will be pub time! So it is hard to deliver to a sponsor, and hard to get repeat sponsorship. The industry can help run these events though, and I would have contributed funds if I was aksed, I would also have volunteered time to judge or help out too, if I was asked.

I have been around in kiting from before kitesurfing started, and have actually judged at a lot of events in the short history of kiteboarding in Oz, and other kiting events before kitesurfing. The 4 in at once has been done heaps, and it is incredibly difficult to judge fairly in my experience, and is very stressful for judges, making it hard to get judges.

I am not saying the PBS is perfect, but at least it was an attempt to establish a national standard, and it has a lot going for it. Gero was the first use of it, there were lots of issues, several have been mentioned by Dachopper and others, but it could and should be refined into a national standard, so that we judge all states and nats the same way, just like they do in all other credible boardsports and sporting events.

PBS was demanding as a judge but you could take your eyes froma rider for moments to make a mark on the score sheet easily, without missing anything, but if you did miss something, there were several other sets of eyes still scoring. The 5 best tricks thing, the size of the box, some really bad wind calls, landing/sticking it calls etc were all teething issues that could easily be addressed.

My opinion of V8 motor cars, I used to be really into car racing, and competed in amateur club based rallying, is that it designed for TV, ask any driver.
Hill climbs and rallying is where real drivers are born and true respect among drives lives, and they all race one vehicle on the track at a time. The clock is the judge, simple.

I think we need to all insist that AKSA and the State Assocs adopt a format, whther it be PBS as is, modified and evolving PBS (gets my vote), or the tried and horrible all in at once.
Maybe even something entirely new and creative???

Unless be hash it out like this, without any blame on anyone or group we will never lift this sport into the 21st century and deliver to the riders and the sport itself the respect and cred they and it deserves.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

Instead of everyone carrying on about what type of scoring system should or shouldn't be used why not run a poll on what the riders would like as there format for competition. I personally think the PBS is fine but needs some major modifications. This way maybe the AKSA can take some notes on what is preferred by the riders, design a new system to suit all insurance purposes maybe even post it on here for some constructive criticism. I also feel that once this is done try to enforce this style off judging at not only the nationals but all events. This way any up and comers don't have to constantly adapt to different judging formats.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hi fliya




I haven't done any judging before, but I think over complicated check boxes, scoring systems and number crunching is tedious and time wasting, you don't need a mathematical equation to see who was the best rider in a heat, a discussion between the judges should reveal the rankings in the heat unanimously.

---

Correct and superbly written, Hi Fliya.

However,
The number crunching is a means of accountability when challenges or reviews occur between riders over placement.
The written score on paper is gospel and chiselled in stone.

For judging to be workable,
You have to remove the soul and subjectivity from an artistic sport like kitesurfing,
and replace it with cold, hard, cut-and-dried maths.

the 05 gravity games used a system revised out of the 05 nationals.

it worked quite well however was setup for man on man heats, it would be tough for the judges to cope with 3 or 4 man heats.

regardless of what system is used, SOME system must be used and this includes things like score sheets, a clear structure, and defined judges roles.

from what little ive heard some of this was a bit lacking at the 06 nationals, and as steve says accountability and credibility suffer.

my vote goes to aksa standardizing SOMETHING, and those that don't have their head in the sand (im looking at dachopper and waveslave) realize that the pbs system used at the 05 nationals with some modification to the number of tricks, number of ppl inside the judging zone etc would be a good place to start