rusty7 said...

What is it with all you blokes that reckon you can't hold these kites in high winds!!!! I ve seen Rhys on my kites in high winds and i weigh 20 kilos more than him. Check out the kitepower photos of Rhys and Josh on my 11m C4 last year in 30 plus knots....and yes they were on it together (at the same time with a 20m ski rope between them) we needed to hold Rhys down on the beach ....yes it might be a bit scary for most but it is done. And yes you are pretty much limited to what you can do. But where we kite there is always plenty of very experienced guys keeping an eye on each other and always there when guys need a bit of help. For the locals who call B/S come to queens next time its really cranking and see for yourself. I am not suggesting it the right thing to do and certainly don't recomend it to others. But there are some amongst who actually enjoy being seriously powered up.
And anyone who knows Rhys and how he kites can confirm he is very able to back up anything he says.

once again my case is rested, you needed more than one person to hold him down on the beach and you rode with two people attached whic is essentially more than adding their weight together (having two boards creating resistance). when you say your going out on a kite in X amount of wind it is so that you alone without assistance can control it properly and the wind speed you give is the average of the time you were out or the 10min intervals not the max gusts.

for real though your east coast 40 knots must pack a fair bit less punch than our west coast 40s, because i know i can still hold a 9/10 in thirty here but when its hitting 30 - 35 here im on a 7 pretty maxed and at 40 im opting out for a 6/5

claim all you want though i couldnt give a f*ck just stating facts as they come.

Fair point about the average wind Charl, I don't think "gusting x " helps people who are not locals. Were we kite, we often get fronts coming through which can last for 10 to 15 minutes and can result in being caught out in winds that are much higher than the average for the day or even hour. That is what i refer to when using the term "gusting to". On occasions guys have had to just let their kites go because you just cannot hold the kite during these events and then 10mins later its back on again.
And you may even have a point regarding the punch the wind is carrying. I know that when we get an Easterly its pretty gutless here and you seem to get more out of a north easter than a south easter. No idea why but it just seem to be the case. Please note I am not condoning in any way shape or form kiting over powered. Your comments are all valid. I don't mind being overpowered and it probibly is a poor choice as my recent arse kicking confirmed, I don't throw crap at people who are more sensible than I am, and i never recomend it to anyone. Live and let live I reckon. On the flip side I do however get a good idea of the max ranges the kites I fly and when doing a review I thought it would be useful info. You often see people asking what is the max range or the min for a certain weight. I have certainly changed my opinion of the 2011 Ozone edges and revised the top end down considerably (wondering if I should maybe have got a 9m). I am really looking foward to fly my 11m in more resonable 20 to 25 knot conditions i think it is gonna be awesome.
Rusty

rusty7 said...

Fair point about the average wind Charl, I don't think "gusting x " helps people who are not locals. Were we kite, we often get fronts coming through which can last for 10 to 15 minutes and can result in being caught out in winds that are much higher than the average for the day or even hour. That is what i refer to when using the term "gusting to". On occasions guys have had to just let their kites go because you just cannot hold the kite during these events and then 10mins later its back on again.
And you may even have a point regarding the punch the wind is carrying. I know that when we get an Easterly its pretty gutless here and you seem to get more out of a north easter than a south easter. No idea why but it just seem to be the case. Please note I am not condoning in any way shape or form kiting over powered. Your comments are all valid. I don't mind being overpowered and it probibly is a poor choice as my recent arse kicking confirmed, I don't throw crap at people who are more sensible than I am, and i never recomend it to anyone. Live and let live I reckon. On the flip side I do however get a good idea of the max ranges the kites I fly and when doing a review I thought it would be useful info. You often see people asking what is the max range or the min for a certain weight. I have certainly changed my opinion of the 2011 Ozone edges and revised the top end down considerably (wondering if I should maybe have got a 9m). I am really looking foward to fly my 11m in more resonable 20 to 25 knot conditions i think it is gonna be awesome.
Rusty

spot on mate.
we get the same with wind here, a 20knt easterly or even northwester is not nearly as powerful as a 20knt sw seabreeze. I think it's to do with air density/ temperatures but i'm no expert so don't quote me on it. biggest thing i find confusing is how a 5 knot difference in 30 - 35 feels way stronger than 5 knots difference between 25 and 30 etc,

ok so got a chance to get on the 11m. Got out on saturday in about 25 knots and felt reasonable comfortable. Wasn't going to put it up as i thought i'd be way overpowered but these kites do have a high end. Nice floaty boosts although still perfecting the timing.
Also got out today in about 14-19 knots and had a very average session. At times i felt well powered and at times I really struggled (To be honest, the wind was a bit average). I felt like i had gone back to basics really. I tried signing the kite like a mad man, then i tried signing it as smooth and consistant as possible searching for the power. I tried signing and then parking it without oversheeting the kite, and also tried all the diffent settings. I really felt like a noob on this kite, a very frustrating day in all. Just couldn't get that pull unless the wind really kicked in say 18knots ish maybe. If i had been on my 10m Switchblade I reckon I would've been fine for the majority.

Also the chicken loop swivel was giving me the ****s! I really don't like how it locks into the bar once you unhook. Most the time I would unhook the CL would not be locked in, and then at the last minute as I'm going for my trick it would suddenly lock in. It felt as if something just snapped on the bar which is not a good feeling.

One of my most frustrating days really. Can't decide if it was my lack of skill (too dependant on switchblades 'Pull in and go'), poor wind or very average low end of the kite???

djdojo said...

Hey eeeZeee,

I'm far from the expert on C4s but like you, recently switched from switchys.

I'm a fraction heavier than you and ride a much more power hungry board (cab custom) and I reckon the 12m C4 has more bottom end than my 2008 12m SB3.

Not more grunt, but more bottom end because it will pull from further forward in the window and so I can ride my board a bit flatter (less drag) and still stay upwind.

You have to be really delicate on the bar compared to switchies for sure (and I've ridden all model switchies from 2008 to 2011) but this subtlety will be rewarded!

75kg on a laluz with an 11m C4 you should get going at least as early as me on 12m C4 and a custom. Keep at it, try different board trims (heel to toe and back to front foot).

Others with more hours on the C4 can probably be more helpful. Darren?

Re unhooking, are you pulling the bar in at a significant angle (twist-wise) to your spreader bar? If so that may make the CL swivel less able to engage in the bar.

I pull the bar in at about 45 degrees or whatever angle my kite is sitting in the window. The lines were not twisted at all when i was trying this so the swivel should have been roughly lined up. The swivel is now a fraction chewed up as it's not aligning correctly when unhooking.

Had a quick look at the bar and lines this morning and noticed that when i attached the lines to the fence and trimmed the lines to full power that the bar was about 50mm short of the chicken loop when sheeted in under tension. Does this mean that when I got past this 50mm that i'm basically oversheeting the kite? Perhaps this is the reason I wasn't getting much low end?
When I tried extending the lines under the floats to the closest knot to the bar, i noticed that there was no more gap between the bar and the chickenloop. Instead there was a nice tension between all lines and i'm thinking that the kite will fly better on the last knot setting???? Will have to try it on this setting.

Is everyone flying these kites off the middle knot or closest knot to the bar?

AKSonline said...

Hi Big eezee,

All new kites front lines will stretch a couple of inches after a few weeks, or less if kitelooping a lot. The way to get your lines back in trim is to lengthen the back lines. No kites like to be oversheeted or stalled.

C4's especially like to be given some breathing room, so let the back lines go out to the last knots. You can simulate this also by trimming the kites down a couple of inches, you'll get the same effect.

Give it a go.

DM

any advice on the swivel not aligning correctly when unhooking?

Personally i just take the manual swively thing off - provides no use really, just roll or loop the other direction to untwist frontlines. Does anyone sit there untwisting there lines with there thumb and forefinger after they loop? you would only compromise the flag-out with half a dozen odd spins in the same direction. make sure your line lengths are matched up again as you gain a few extra inches of throw.

I would prefer the slingshot bar with the automatic unwtisting spinning system, but can't have it all it seems.

AKSonline said...
A C4 has a bigger wind range than most kites but it takes a more articulate kite flyer to work the bottom end by advanced board skills as well as precise flying skills.....

.......12/9 would be the perfect sizes for you, but she'll struggle with power until you are mid powered up.

Tough call, but I agree with Steve McKitepower, 12 + 9. I use the 9m 2011 C4 as my main kite, at 75+ ish kg, fun starts at 15 knots with a surfboard.
There's been a lot said about the lack of low end on the C4, but I think people need to remember they're a C shaped kite, don't expect the power of a flat kite, and there's plenty there if you keep them moving.

I think Darren's comment above is excellent advice. As usual.

ok got a chance to give it a good demo.

quick summary.

Bottom end is not the best. Don't think it has the same bottom end as my 10m switchblade. Really didn't get going until maybe 17-18knots.

Awesome top end. Great unhooking range. Great boosts once you get it dialled. Can direct the kite from really low in the window. Nice and floaty.

Unhooked it's quite nice. Hate the direct connection swivel -serves no purpose! Ended up puuting the leash around the centre line above the chicken loop.

Overall it is a sick kite as most people have described. Not really grunty but still has the power there once the wind gets going. Biggest downfall is low end. In my honest opinion, the low end is non existent. I really hated this kite and wasn't even going to fly it today but it was the only suitable size to put up. Wind came in good and strong and my opinion completely changed.

Now, do i stick with the 11m and the sucky low end, or do i get the 12m and loose looping ability and turning speed??

thinking 11m and 9m. DOn't want to be underpowered on an 8m

Big eeeZeee said...

ok got a chance to give it a good demo.

quick summary.

Bottom end is not the best. Don't think it has the same bottom end as my 10m switchblade. Really didn't get going until maybe 17-18knots.

Awesome top end. Great unhooking range. Great boosts once you get it dialled. Can direct the kite from really low in the window. Nice and floaty.

Unhooked it's quite nice. Hate the direct connection swivel -serves no purpose! Ended up puuting the leash around the centre line above the chicken loop.

Overall it is a sick kite as most people have described. Not really grunty but still has the power there once the wind gets going. Biggest downfall is low end. In my honest opinion, the low end is non existent. I really hated this kite and wasn't even going to fly it today but it was the only suitable size to put up. Wind came in good and strong and my opinion completely changed.

Now, do i stick with the 11m and the sucky low end, or do i get the 12m and loose looping ability and turning speed??

thinking 11m and 9m. DOn't want to be underpowered on an 8m

You won't lose looping ability with a 12M, but you also might find you do get the same bottom end out of your 11M as the 10M SB after a couple of more rides in good conditions. You'll probably dial in to the kite better and will let it breathe more. Like you say it does not feel grunty, but the power is still there, and with more familiarity with the kite you will get better bottom end.

The swivel thing does serve a very good purpose for riders less skilled - they clip their leash to the flag out line for max safety. You are far better to clip your leash to the ring inside the chicken loop - its there for riders like you that unhook. If you put the leash there you can unwind twists by hand while cruising back upwind.

This years C4 does have more bottom end than last years, and it has smoother power in a wider wind range with a quicker turn rate too.

No worries, I understood, but just don't see the issue with the tab that aligns the chicken loop, heaps of bars have that feature and they all misalign a bit and then pop in. Its just a pop/click sensation nothing bad happens, but when it does pop in which is most of the time because it would be lined up when you unhook and will just stay put. Make sure you trim the front lines a few cms first if you are riding unhooked, this way it will really minimise the misalignment that seems to annoy you.

You could cut it off, but I would not recommend it, the tab makes it much easier to hook back in when it does work. Having my leash clip between the bar and the top of the c-loop would annoy me more, so I just ride with my leash on the suicide ring most of the time.

11M/8M is the best spread, if you hang on to the 11M until at least 25, the 8M will be working well by then, I'm only 75kg and found that at around 35-40 knots the 8m was quite a handful, so the 9M would be way too much in those winds.

i have just purchased an 11 and 8m c4 combo. Has any one got an opinion on which of the two bridle settings is better?