Even on our trial the alternator revealed its intermittent charging and a sheave blew under load.

What happened then? Accusations of poor-seamanship? Who paid?
(I have only ever crewed various sloops, racing and deliveries, and have observed many grown men yell at other men when at sea.)

And for the statement below... I still know little about yachts, but I have a mental picture of the lay-up of the vessel twisting and detaching from the framework?

I sailed on one boat where the owner had drilled an extra drain hole for the anchor locker - only noticeable on starboard tack, but then REALLY obvious!

sirgallivant said..
The first thing - if l was selling my boat - would be an invitation to a prospective buyer to sail the yacht!

No deposit, nothing, just a few hours on the water to make him like the boat, raise his interest in it a bit more. No strings attached, no guilt involved.
If he was interested in the first place like l was, taking him for a sail would hook him like l was hooked and still l am.
On the top of this, a sea trial would show what kind of a sailor the buyer is. No way I would sell my boat to a moron.

If i had a boat for sale i would take any ones money, moron or not, as down here offers are few and far between

Good idea though about taking the prospective buyer for a test sail because if you pick the weather it is a good selling tool

Regards Don

Hey Wollemi, I was just using those minor examples as things that I didn't spot in my pre-trial survey. Obviously in my case, they were so minor that they made no difference to the purchase - but did inform my maintenance schedule.

However, if a sheave blows as soon as any load is applied, it's clearly stuffed!

The additional hole I described was tiny and impossible to spot - amazing how much water came in when it was a foot underwater. The owner thought he was drilling straight into the anchor locker - sadly there was a gap allowing water both from outside and the locker to enter the bilge. It wasn't structural.

I agree with using the test sail as a sales aid - I have thought of doing an "open day" where you have the boat easily accessible on a jetty and give short sails to anyone interested.

Cheers

Bristle

Well, we see both the sublime and the ridiculous...

In the above examples it is not hard to see the difference btwn a well maintained boat and an ill maintained one and what a simple sea trial is able to unearth.

The buyers suspicion should be araised - if the boat has obvious faults like the blown sheave, the broken sheet, the sluggish alternator or the necessity of the hard use of the winch while raising the main sail - about the rest of the boat which is obviously not maintained to a standard. Period.

Sheaves don't blow up randomly and sheets don't disintegrate if regularly checked and maintained! Period.

The broken sheave indicates an ill maintained boat while the hole drilled in the hull proves that the owner is an incompetent. In both cases the condition of the rest of the vessel should be suspect, and the offer is going to decrease dramatically if purchase is considered at all.

Some suggest that used production yachts of the same brand and size all sail alike which suggestion is not only ridiculous but profoundly untrue.
Even boats out of the same mould and rigged alike sail differently let alone small production runs or one offs.
It is simply each boat to his own as every individual is different. Sailing yachts are not like cars or motorboats, more like motorcycles or highway trucks, with souls of their own.

To bring my own example into the fray, after scouring the coast from Adelaide to Mollolabah for over two years, l found this Adams 28 which l liked very much at first sight, after the initial checks and drooling over. Cisco was kind enough to give a second opinion, which l appreciate ever since.
After the consilium with my captain at the time, Graham Radford, the very designer of the yacht, he suggested to TAKE THE BOAT FOR A SAIL!

I talked to the dealer and he agreed to take it out without any deposit or strings attached, which we did, and there was no return for me, l got infected lethally on the spot.

Well, taking chances and not the option for a sea trial is every buyers perogative.

MorningBird said..
Run the engine on the mooring in forward, and then in reverse run it up for 10 minutes. Inspect for overheating, expensive noises, leaks and things like mounts.
Inspect the rig and it last rerig certificate. It usually needs replacing anyway.
Inspect all the sails on deck or ashore.
Run and inspect all systems for proper operation or poor maintenance.
I do my own out of water inspection and get a surveyor for the insurance. Every surveyor I have used didn't pick up anything I didn't and missed things I found.
I have only bought production boats, Duncanson/S&S34. I know how they perform.
A test sail of a production boat in one set of conditions, usually light and in harbour, won't tell a sailor anything they won't know from my sort of inspection.
My view, waste the sellers time.

i agree , for someone who has sailed a sister yacht . they would find out more by doing as you say and spending the time crawling all over her.

Because if you have done all your homework correctly in inspecting the boat including engine ,hull rigging etc and have negotiated the absolute best price out of the seller not only is it a waste of time but also tantamount to saying " well I've screwed you down on price now I want to see how well you sail it". To my mind it is a test sail not a sea trial and I would be insulting the seller if I had done the above correctly or I had not done the above to the best of my ability and was hoping to use it to get a couple of extra dollars off.
Some want one to convince the missus. Not on my boat mate.
I have only had three keel and the current swing keel boats one of which was purchased new and we had sea trials on her with the rigger and sailmaker to ensure all was ok in tuning etc. I did not test sail the other three and have no regrets.
When I sold the Cole 35 the buyer had everything checked thoroughly over three days including the engine by a mechanic who advised the alternator was stuffed and it needed a service . He said he would like a test sail before signing . Just the two of us on PPB blowing around 25 kts. We motored out of the pen for about 1 kilometre I handed the tiller to him and asked what he wanted to test . We could have raised the main with a couple of reefs but headsails were out of the question as the forestay had twin tracks and two people were needed ,one to the feed the sail into the track and one on the halyard. He suggested we go back and sign the papers. An absolute waste .By the same token I was very keen in buying a Farr 940 at that time ,boy was (is) she fast however she was very basic ,a mess below but sound and at a good price. The seller suggested we do the wag ,hoping to convince me . What he convinced me about was that he had a crack crew who could sail anything and make it go fast.

I agree entirely with madmouse, the sea trial is the last part of a process with background research and survey/ inspection of the boat way before. And it should be a trial with specific objectives rather than any kind of test sail or keel kicking exercise.

Ah yes, I was chatting with the wife about this topic and she made some good points :

One off builds and special versions may not sail like any other boat so, no matter how much research you've done you need that sail. The same would go for major alterations - our boat was built with a 10m masthead rig but has been converted to 11m fractional. How will it sail? A neighbour on the dock was selling a one-off cat with an unstayed rotating mast. Cool, but I'd certainly want to see how that worked out on the water. Often older boats have been rather modified and it might be quite hard to be sure how they will handle.

Using something is not the same as looking at it - some equipment can only be effectively tested in use.

I had expected this topic to be pretty neutral. I am surprised how many strong opinions there are against the very concept of a test sail.

Each to their own of course.

Cheers

Bristle

Well, to reply to bananabender, when we sea trialled our current boat with the broker (owner not present) only myself, the surveyor and my wife sailed the boat - i have no interest in how the owner might sail it. As it was, everything was acceptable and we made no attempt to amend the price. If a significant problem had been revealed, we would have requested repair, negotiated a suitable reduction or, if if major and unacceptable, walked away.

Vendors do conceal things. When I bought my first car, the vendor claimed a new door skin had been fitted to repair a bingle. I asked him why my magnet wouldn't stick to a brand new steel door. Yep, it was a tonne of filler, painted over. Makes you a touch suspicious. Oh, and it wasn't me being clever at that age - but my dad was pretty canny.

Cheers

Bristle

Bananabender said..

southace said..
Would you buy a car without having a test drive?
I think it's fair to place a deposit subject to survey and sea trial.

I suppose it gets down to whatever your comfortable with

Each to their own
I felt comfortable to buy mine sight unseen from the other side of the world.
Paid for a survey from a previous purchaser who didn't go ahead .
It was the boat I wanted at the right price it was a small risk but worth it.

Commiserations, Chariott.

When I've bought without a sea trial it's because of logistics; buying a boat in SA from the ACT is one thing if the seller is going to Melbourne and can meet you half way but who is really going to drive to SA, do a sea trial and then pretend that you're not already basically committed to buy it? With the 36, we knew of the owners, loved the design, were very happy with price and condition, lived interstate and didn't want to delay the deal while we went back for a sea trial, because that could (and would) have meant losing the chance to buy a boat we love.

A lot has been said here about the pros and cons of a sea trial whether buying or selling.

Transfer of boat ownership and or registration has some legal requirements such as gas certificates etc depending on which state legislation the vessel is subject to.

Unlike motor vehicles, boats are not YET subject to "seaworthiness certificates" in order to transfer ownership.

No doubt "seaworthiness certificates" will become part of our future in the "Nanny States" we live in and like motor vehicles requiring a road trial, boats will require a "sea trial" for transfer of registration.