Hi

i have a cavalier 32. Hank on sails. On the deck there is a large center cleat for attaching the mooring line/anchor about 1m or so aft of the forestay. I have a baby stay that goes up to the spreaders. The mast is about 16 years old. I have port and starboard spectra jib halyards. I mainly sail alone.

I recently had the boat re-rigged professionally by someone that has been in the industry for decades and was previously a mast builder. I was really happy with the work.

The rigger recommended that I install a 2:1 halyard below the Jib halyards for use with a storm sail that would have a wire bolt rope and the tack would be connected to the cleat. He thought the cleat was sufficiently reinforced. So it would not run up an inner forestay at all but rely on the tension of the 2:1 halyard and the wire "bolt rope" in the luff. I could then have the sail in a bag on deck for use. So he installed this new 2:1 halyard at very little cost throwing in a block he had spare. He assured me it was a good idea and he would do it if it was his boat.


Then speaking to a sail maker he thought that that wouldnt be the best idea because as I hoist the sail and take up the 2:1 halyard I would have to pull through ~25m of halyard which would take a long time and during that long time the sail would flog like crazy. I imagine I would have to be on a reach so it doesn't foul on the mast or the forestay.
the sailmakers suggested I install a removable dyneema inner forestay that can be tensioned with a 5:1 block or something like that. Then have a hank on storm sail. I would need to have a connection point installed on the mast to do this.

Any thoughts?

the other idea I had was wether I could use one of my spectra jib halyards as the inner forestay and hank the storm sail on to this? I could still add a tension block if I couldn't tension it enough with the winch. It's in the right position.
Obviously I want to think this through before I have a sail made. It's probably something I would do in the next year.

HI Jbarnes,
I can't quite work out the setup from the photos not knowing the boat, but this is a Cav 32 with inner forestay, maybe it could give you some ideas?
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cavalier-32-many-upgrades-new-standing-rigging-ready-to-enjoy/254346

Inner forestay attached to block ( red rope) leading back to cockpit?Release from toe rail and pull on when required?

MorningBird said..
I had an inner forestay rigged on Morning Bird to run a storm jib as a staysail. It worked brilliantly.
As the wind increased and the heady was furled in I had a storm jib all ready up and with a couple of reefs in the main was well set up for anything. And nobody had to go forard to achieve it.
It worked on 3 Lord Howe trips.
The inner stay ran from about a metre aft of the forestay tack up to about a metre below the forestay head on the mast. It did reduce the gap for the headsail to go through when tacking but offshore you only tack every few hours, if that, so furl the heady in a bit before tacking.
When sailing around the coastal areas I had the inner forestay tack secured to the toerail near the shrouds, out of the way.

But you did have to send crew forward to put in the mainsail reefs over those horns! Ricochet has the same system but at least has a slug lock to keep the slugs in control. The weird thing is the second reef D ring would not fit down to the horn. Before leaving port I made a rope loop to fit down to the horn and had to use it Thursday night for several hours before dropping the main completely. Vessel sails well with just a bit of headsail. I would say that this must have been the first time she has sailed with a second reef in the main.

saltiest1 said..
Or you could put in a removable stay of a couple of different types like I'm about to. Mine will be on a highfield lever with check stays that will be relocatable when not required.

Yep, a good way of doing it.

Sir Gallivant, yes those Wichard hanks are very easy to use but beware, their "easyness" also makes it easy for a halyard, genoa leech, spinnaker tape or other such items to clip in as it brushes past as well!

Ricochet has an adjustable inner fore stay. There is a SS cable from a ring bolt on the deck through the front compartment down to the hull. On deck there is a rope whip to a dedicated winch on the deck at the base of the mast. This is all going when I feel the urge to climb the mast and disconnect the stay. The boat sails well with just a heavily reefed headsail. 99.999% of the time that inner fore stay is going to drive you crazy every time you tack, forget short tacking in confined spaces. Even if the tack is stored near the shroud base that wire is going to be annoying!
With a Cav 32 installing a quality headsail furler will mean you will go sailing more often and keep you or some other dumb smuck from venturing on the fore deck in hazardous conditions.

A reinforced anchor locker bulkhead to to take the chain plate for inner stay



Stainless chain plate that incorporates the anchor winch

Jolene said..

Ramona said..
Ricochet has an adjustable inner fore stay. There is a SS cable from a ring bolt on the deck through the front compartment down to the hull. On deck there is a rope whip to a dedicated winch on the deck at the base of the mast. This is all going when I feel the urge to climb the mast and disconnect the stay..

Your adjustable inner stay sounds alot like a baby stay and nothing to do with a stay sail.
Adjustable because you probably have an adjustable back stay for adjusting forestay tension. Being able to ease the baby stay whilst cranking on the backstay is extremely useful with stiff masts. Your rig is probably an inline spreader with single lowers so your baby stay is there to set preload to stop pumping and mast inversion from mainsheet tension.

I found that sometimes sailing close to windward with the staysail is a mistake because it won't power you up to get though the waves. I need to keep as much heady out as I can. But as I bare away the stay sail is awesome. It reduces heel and pressure on the helm and makes things more comfortable with little or no speed loss and no baggy skin tight sail shape.

My experience too.

Kankama said..
I think the thing about reefing by furling that is a pain is that when you reef and two bad things happen. The CE moves forward in both the main and the genny, and the genny gets fuller. This means you get lee helm just when you don't want it.

By pulling a blade jib on a stay aft of the forestay, the CE of the headsail moves aft, pretty much nullifying the effect of the CE moving forward in the main. And the jib can be cut really flat. So your boat stays nice and balanced.

Like all things, each to their own. But I have changed heaps on my cat in 20 years of owning her and one thing I could not live without is the ability to put up my slightly large storm jib in 25 plus on her own stay and jog to windward with a reef in the main, snug as a bug in a rug with super well shaped sails and beautiful balance. Sure it makes tacking a bit more of a hassle but because this is a babyish stay it is not a trial. So the OP may love the idea, as do I, or hate it as Ramona does.

Yep, put me down as another who doesn't like part furling as a method to downchange. The sail can't hold shape and as Kankama mentioned the centre of effort goes forward...ugh.
It's interesting reading Jolene and MB's experience though, as I point higher with a staysail than I can with the jib, and by a good 5 degrees. This makes sense on one hand, as you are reducing sail forrard of the mast so the combined centre of effort shifts behind the mast . On the other hand, you would expect it to be worse as my sheeting angle is wider with the staysail (it uses the same barber haulers/ position as the headsail.)
Classic horses for courses paradigm, every boat is different.

Hey Shaggy, just to elaborate, the staysail I have still points alright, may be a bit higher probably due to the sheeting but in rough choppy water it lacks drive . I have a nice No 4 that I can put on the furler and I should give that a comparison run against the staysail.

Cav 32s are not a big boat. They will go to windward with just a bit of headsail unfurled. If you have a hanked on headsail on a Cav 32 and down size to a staysail either fixed stay or flying, you still have to go forward and either remove the headsail or frap it down on the deck with a shock cord /hook arrangement to the toe rail. Left on deck it will still create a lot of drag and collect water. The halyard will need to be tensioned to keep clear of the staysail as you attempt to set it.
Ramona has several staysail deck points and an off the wind staysail. I stitched up a storm staysail and gave it a go in fresh conditions and came to the conclusion the best place for it was the sail room. My go-to heavy weather configuration is a couple of feet of headsail or none and the third reef in the main. Don't leave the cockpit and don't get wet.
Ricochet it's 50% of the headsail. If in doubt just think, what would Jessica Watson do?

tarquin1 said..
Yes but the guy asking the question has a hanked on headsail. So your answer would be put a furling headsail on and forget the staysail. Does he have the budget to do that.
I will add that I think a furling sail compromises shape for ease of handling.

I'm aware he has a hanked on headsail. The obvious answer is a furling headsail would be probably easier and just as cheap as a new sail and rigging. The only smart move with hanked on headsails is to keep changing down to your eventually using a hanked on storm sail. Stowing the sails down below as you go.

He also says he just had the boat re-rigged. Maybe he chose not to put a furler on or couldn't afford it or didnt get given the option from the rigger. Now he is looking to put a staysail on. Always a compromise and a budget to work too.
You never get all the info.

Yara said..
I think the rigger was talking about a Solent stay. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solent_(sailing_rig)

Yep, this was the standard setup supplied by Hallberg-Rassy for my HR40; removable solent stay, a hanked on staysail or storm jib, plus runners setup when the solent stay has a sail on it. Most other owners I have chatted to only set it up for a long passage with the staysail already hanked on in a bag. That way the trip forward consists of removing the bag and running the sheets back to the cockpit.

Ilenart

Not really much experience but I would think a solent stay makes a lot of sense when used with a furling genoa. Does a solent have the same benefits with hank on sails? With a solent you won't be flying both headsails like a cutter and difficult to tack a genoa if the solent stay is up. Since you are going to have to down sails to reef or change sails what advantage does the solent give? It will be set slightly aft but generally they are parallel and the tack not far away from the forestay position so while there would be some shift of the CoE I am not sure how much.

I think a solent would make perfect sense when used with a furling genoa/jib. If you are tacking a lot remove it, otherwise furl to tack. When the wind gets up, furl the genoa completely and hoist a smaller jib on the solent. When cruising two poled out headsails might do the job.

As I said, not much experience so would like comments from those that have tried such a arrangement.