Hi Piros,
I guess we are seeing a French foil culture emerge as different from the Australian one?
The centered position is advocated by Patrice Guenole, whose advice I tend to take into account as he has tons of experience Surfing, Longboarding, Windsurfing, Kiting, and foiling on all these supports + the foil air chair back in the days. So all the (French) Gong customers have discovered the benefits of a centered foil.
And I think you are missing the point: the distance of the foil to the tail is irrelevant, what is important is the position of the foil relative to your body, this is what you mean by saying that moving the foil forward will lift earlier: it is moving the foil forward relative to the feet! not the tail.
Try to picture one of your boards, and imagine glueing 15" of board to the tail: nothing will change for the foil dynamics, if anything the wave will push more on the tail, thus helping keeping the nose down.
What the centering does is that it reduces the swing weight, and give a more efficient paddling position, so you can apply more power and take off on weaker waves.
You must realize that I seem to have the same foil placement as you... relative to my feet.
On straps, I wonder if you tried them. All the people I know that tried with and without were surprised on how easier it was with straps. I have a friend that was a very good kitefoiler that tried SUP foiling without straps, and he said it was hell, couldn't wait to drill the straps inserts in the board. Plus as you can see, a lot (most?) Hawaiian SUPers use straps.
Straps can be dangerous in one case: when you fall on your back to the rear, as for a "layback" surf turn, as once your leg is fully flexed, all your body weight push on your heel, locking it in place (This is where people get hurt in kitefoiling too). But if you know it, it is easy to bail when falling backwards before your knee is fully flexed. But strapless, each fall will be playing russian roulette with the foil.
Select to expand quotecharlieuk said..
I quite agree however some apear to have it more right than others
maybe (I only tested the Gong foil), but I guess, like in all surf-related sports, it will always be a compromise of some sort. Patrice Guenole says for instance that a flat wing will beach the surface more easily in turns than a downwards-curved tips one, but it will be easier to regain control. Compromises...
And as Patrice has tested himself a lot of the foils on the market, and his kite foils were curved too (but now he is making them flat) I tend to trust his judgment. (Plus the foils profiles were designed by Deboichet, a legend in professional windsurfing circles for his fins). He just told me the Go foil were very good foils, just with design options - compromises - different from his.
Note that you can tweak a lot the foil performance with changing the stabilizer, which is quite cheap. I for instance bought a thinner one, for less stability but more liveliness when I will feel ready to tackle it.
Select to expand quote
First up mast mount: - Sup boards 9-0 to 8-0 21" to 23" from tail to back of mast .
Board Shape: - Smaller is better but you still need volume. Swing weight plays a big part (you want less) so you need a board that will float you plus the foil . In your case Charlie the Takuma is heavy unlike the Go Foil which actually floats. You don't need a 30" wide board 27" or less is fine because the foil acts as a keel . You just need volume , fat rails and tail for stability , knock out most of the rocker in the tail so the foil is at 90 degrees to the board and have good nose lift for the touch downs. Mount a kick pad a couple of inches behind the mast mount for a foot reference. Flat water speed from the board plan shape is not that important as the foil will give you glide after a couple of strokes.
Thanks Piros.
I am getting closer to dusting off the prowave. given it is 9'6, would you go to that 23' position? or more?
Re the swing weight.... do you think that diminishes with a bigger rider?
I agree 100% with Piros....You don't need a bigger board (too much swing weight) you don't need all that tail behind your foil (I'm using the JL 7'6 Foil Board with GoFoil tuttle box)....Get behind a boat for half an hour or so to get use to the lift & pumping & then find the right waves...NO foot straps required...With the right board & foil you'll have all the control you need...Colas' board looks out of control....The foil makes even a much smaller board super stable....Happy flying 
Select to expand quotechucktheskiffie said..
First up mast mount: - Sup boards 9-0 to 8-0 21" to 23" from tail to back of mast .
Board Shape: - Smaller is better but you still need volume. Swing weight plays a big part (you want less) so you need a board that will float you plus the foil . In your case Charlie the Takuma is heavy unlike the Go Foil which actually floats. You don't need a 30" wide board 27" or less is fine because the foil acts as a keel . You just need volume , fat rails and tail for stability , knock out most of the rocker in the tail so the foil is at 90 degrees to the board and have good nose lift for the touch downs. Mount a kick pad a couple of inches behind the mast mount for a foot reference. Flat water speed from the board plan shape is not that important as the foil will give you glide after a couple of strokes.
Thanks Piros.
I am getting closer to dusting off the prowave. given it is 9'6, would you go to that 23' position? or more?
Re the swing weight.... do you think that diminishes with a bigger rider?
23" max (because of bigger board) I tested a more forward mast position on Sunday around 27" it just makes it harder learning to control the lift on take offs and drops. You want to take off flat. No a bigger rider does not offset swing weight. The thing with excess swing weight (longer boards) means more leverage on the foil so it exaggerates movement which will lead to more touch downs and crashes. This is why you see the crew who have been at it awhile boards shrinking and mast points moving back.
Your 9-6 will be OK to learn but you will move off it pretty fast so I recommend something much smaller the old Vanguard boards are great to convert . We are getting guys up and gliding long runs in 2 or 3 sessions and some guys pick it up first day because we know what set ups are easiest to learn on.
Select to expand quotePiros said..
Your 9-6 will be OK to learn but you will move off it pretty fast
Like many before you Piros, you overestimate me....
Haha you'll be right mate . Check this online foil academy by Slingshot , it helped me so much when I first started to kite foil. Gives a great break down on the mast point starting with it back then moving it forward.
www.foil-academy.com/courses/kite-foil-academy
For the record I kite foil strapped and tow foil strapped but also do it unstrapped and Sup unstrapped but I will eventually put on straps for bigger days and when I start pumping harder but at the moment I just don't need them.
Select to expand quoteJimmy Lewis Boards said..
you don't need all that tail behind your foil
The irony here is that I get flamed for defending longer boards, knowing that I have been a advocate of ultra short SUPs for so many years :-)
Of course, YES, I know a shorter SUP will work better with a foil. I ordered my 6'10" SUP foil board 6 weeks ago (after my 11th session)... (but production has a very hard time keeping up with the demand).
I would just want to stress some points:
- OK it is a 8'9" board. But a 6.9kg board (before adding tuttle box, pad and straps that are centered weigths). So the weight of the pointed tips are actually no so big
- trying to move around your paddle by holding it in the center by one hand. Then off the center. You will experience how a centered pivot is nimbler. We are not speaking of putting a foil on the tail of a 14' board like some people did one year ago.
- you lose agility in the air, but you gain paddling speed. This is very important where I live to be able to foil alone even in crowded areas (to get to far breaks, or to takeoff on no-breaking waves). I am sure that with enough technique, one can make a short SUP foil take off on non breaking waves, but I am not there yet. And I may be too old: Although Austin Kalama does it, his father doesn't. This is why I ordered a 6'10" rather than cut the nose & tail of my 8'9" to make a sub-7' board (I actually have planned where to cut), I suspect I may still have days where I will prefer the longer one. This "tail behind your foil" helps you paddling, but of course it will touch more the water in hard turns and aggressive pumping.
- I am not against the boat sessions, if you remember I was planning to get some on the first page of this thread. But being able to learn to foil without a boat have some kind of appeal, and I thought it was interesting to pursue the approach, as I realized that having to organize boat sessions was deterring a lot of potential foilers. Kind of similiar to Beasho attitude in "Learning to Foil - What to Know: Go Out And Surf" thread on the zone: www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=31898.0 "You do NOT NEED A BOAT. - Keep it simple and Go out and Surf."
Of course, I strongly advise people with no frequent wave sessions (in the mediterranean sea, or work constraints) to clock some foil time either towed being a boat, bike, car, cable, or via windfoiling (on the SUP like JB) or kitefoiling. But if you have access to waves, know that you have the option to skip the exhaust fumes and enjoy the ocean.
And, to remove the rider from the equation, here is the same gear with a younger pilot having previous kitefoiling experience:
Select to expand quotePiros said..
Gives a great break on the mast point starting with it back then moving it forward.
Actually, I did the same.
I started with the straps in the front position, and I ended progressively in the back one, 12cm farther back.
And I suspect that your extensive foiling experience on other foiled devices is what makes you not need straps. My posts are more intended for the "foil virgins" out there.
I have been playing around a lot with mast position and angle which is what I nice about the plate fixing, just 2" makes a huge difference. Sliding it forward the board does not paddle as straight and feels less stable while paddling however it does make lifting easier however that is with my foot in the same position, going back helps paddle and stability speed but harder to lift.
what I am now thinking is as well as having the mast adjustable I will also make the tail pad adjustable as obviously foot position is so key.
The other thing I have found is while you don't want the foil to be dragging when you paddle it is very important to have it set relative to the board at a point were you can get enough constant pressure on your front foot that you feel stable and not like you are balancing on one leg the hole time, this really helps tone the pitch control down and makes things less sensitive.
this clip was 4th time out on the short takuma mast and all in very ****ty windy mushy waves. the difference between this and my flat diy wing was huge, it has so much more stability and not found like I have felt the need for foot straps as it very rarely goes that fare out of control.
www.facebook.com/CGCustomPaddleboards/videos/795196523987501/
Charlie nice work you will find with time you will stop surfing off your back foot which jacks the foil to full height and start surfing off your front foot which gives you tons more control once that happens move the mast forward for easier lift.
Colas my advice is for beginners as well. It's simply easier to learn to foil with the mast point back. When learning you don't want the board to lift straightaway .Take off ride flat then bring it up slowly .By putting it too far forward it wants to lift on take off and spits you off like in all your early videos. Of course it works further forward but it's just easier to learn when its back. Try it....
I agree once you are up and riding feet position negates foil mount position but if you are continually getting spat off on take off or first and second rise all you are doing is lengthening the learning process. That's my point. The further back mast mount is not an Aussie thing it's Hawaiian and that's how Alex Aguera sets up the Go Foils. I just simply copied what they did because it obviously works. Plus the same goes for Slingshot ,Lift MHL & North. You really should check out the Slingshot Foil Academy link above it explains it in great detail.
It's also easier on a shorter board 8-0 to 9-0 is fine you have to be stable to paddle in when learning but going extra long that's not the answer. My advice isn't gospel but it comes from testing heaps of different set ups with lots of different people ,not just me
Select to expand quotePiros said..
Charlie nice work you will find with time you will stop surfing off your back foot which jacks the foil to full height and start surfing off your front foot which gives you tons more control once that happens move the mast forward for easier lift.
In the supper choppy and bumpy stuff and only with the 400mm mast I found it quite hard to not keep breaching the wing so ended up flying quite low.
My 5th session was on slightly cleaner stuff and I took some shims out with me and that is were I found changing the angle by putting a few under the front of the plate gives you more front foot pressure and a heap more control so its easier to adjust height and fly higher. I will probably switch to the long mast next session. (note: I did originally set my plate into the board with probably too much compensation for the rocker and hence now having to bring it back a little)
Charlie yeah the mast needs to be 90 degrees to the board otherwise it drags when you paddle and makes it super hard to rise , shim it up.
Colas said:- And as for Alex Aguera, his straps placement is horrible... inline straps... Not all what the Hawaiians do is worth copying
Big call but power to you. I've got nothing else to say this has dragged on long enough.
Select to expand quotePiros said..
Charlie yeah the mast needs to be 90 degrees to the board otherwise it drags when you paddle and makes it super hard to rise , shim it up.
I origanaly had it set at 90 however have found it too much and did not get enough front foot pressure it was like the board was pointing down hill all the time when flying so felt very back footed. I'm dialling it back now and it's a lot better.
I have mine in my old Nash 9,3 and found it not too hard too learn, although it seems I need a decent wave too get flying, Im finding it hard too catch small waves on it. The best session I had was a good 3 too 4 ft flattish wave, that allowed me time too set the foil , the only thing I find is the go foil seems to make a lot of noise, humming. Hope it doesn't attract the men in the grey suits??
Select to expand quoteteatrea said..
it seems I need a decent wave too get flying, Im finding it hard too catch small waves on it. The best session I had was a good 3 too 4 ft flattish wave, that allowed me time too set the foil , the only thing I find is the go foil seems to make a lot of noise, humming. Hope it doesn't attract the men in the grey suits??
I also find it much easier to foil if the wave doesn't break. I guess it is because the wave is faster, so it is easier to maintain enough speed to fly. When a wave hits the shallows it slows down considerably (and the top come over the bottom, it breaks). So at our foil beginner levels, we do not have the technique to avoid getting stuck in the lower portion of the wave, we slow down too much, especially in small waves that are slow to begin with. Note that this is my main problem in my last video: I am too low on the wave (or too far away on the shoulder).
On small waves I find that a bit of onshore wind helps a lot: it makes the top break, but without the wave being ina shallow part that would slow it down.
On humming, that's due to the blunt trailing edges, an essential feature for safety. You should be able to reduce it by sanding the trailing edge asymetrically(*), but I would advise against it till you are sure to never fall on the foil.
(*) see www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/Fin-Whistle
Wow this thread is massive now, well done Colas.
I haven't read through all the posts as I struggle to concentrate for that long , but I did want to add to one of the posts on here regarding the plate mount. I totally agree on mast position and have seriously found even 1" can make a hell of a difference. I ride my mast all the way forward in small or unbroken swells/waves, then as it gets bigger of steeper I move it back. Literally just 1" can be the difference between a smooth effortless glide or constant breeching or pumping.
On the board thing, go as small as you can without risking stability. Last weekend I surfed foiled on a 5'6" surfboard which blew my mind. I am 6'2" and 95kg. SUP I am still on the Raptor V116, but think I will end up on a 95ltr board soon. Smaller boards make your pumping easier and more efficient, as well and making it way easier for turns and maneuvers.
Here's a quick vid of Andy and I Surf Foiling Session last week. Footage was hard to get as linking up waves with both of us at Currumbin Alley with 60 others is difficult, but we managed to capture a few nice glides.
Select to expand quoteJB said..
Last weekend I surfed foiled on a 5'6" surfboard which blew my mind.
I believe you! Xavier Leroy, who started foiling strapless both on surf and SUP said that he was surprised to find that surf foiling on a tiny board seemed actually simpler, as there were just not enough room to put his feet in the wrong place :-)
"some boat tow time before hitting the waves" ... or maybe some windfoil time could be also an option dont you think?
Nice video, it show the open playground of these non-breaking waves.
PS: Straps avoid the frustrating falls like yours at 0:46 :-) But I reckon straps may not be worth the trouble for prone paddling
I come from a kite foil background and I'm now on my 4th session sup foiling on my cut down to 6'10 naish Hokua 8'3
Foiling confidently and starting to get the hang of pumping and turning..
In my opinion you want the foil setup so your back foot is standing on the tail pad all the photos of guys foiling standing centred on the board looks crude..
IMO start playing with your board shapes and setup so you look like your surfing not centred on the board
added a pic of my chopped up rig
Ive also added a wedge to the top plate to try compensate for the rocker on rear of board and found it works well..
Select to expand quotecoxy31 said..
I come from a kite foil background and I'm now on my 4th session sup foiling on my cut down to 6'10 naish Hokua 8'3
Foiling confidently and starting to get the hang of pumping and turning..
In my opinion you want the foil setup so your back foot is standing on the tail pad all the photos of guys foiling standing centred on the board looks crude..
IMO start playing with your board shapes and setup so you look like your surfing not centred on the board
added a pic of my chopped up rig
Ive also added a wedge to the top plate to try compensate for the rocker on rear of board and found it works well..
I wondered if chopping a board was possible... any more detail on how you did that?
Select to expand quotecolas said..JB said..
Last weekend I surfed foiled on a 5'6" surfboard which blew my mind.
I believe you! Xavier Leroy, who started foiling strapless both on surf and SUP said that he was surprised to find that surf foiling on a tiny board seemed actually simpler, as there were just not enough room to put his feet in the wrong place :-)
"some boat tow time before hitting the waves" ... or maybe some windfoil time could be also an option dont you think?
Nice video, it show the open playground of these non-breaking waves.
PS: Straps avoid the frustrating falls like yours at 0:46 :-) But I reckon straps may not be worth the trouble for prone paddling
0.46 was a foil breech at high speed whilst turning. straps would not have helped this. I made the mistake of going slightly back foot mid turn (as that's what feels natural) instead of increasing front foot pressure. Luckily with out straps I was thrown clear of the foil and board, I believe straps would have been a different story and some sore ankles.
Thanks Colas, yes we definitely opened up the use of these waves, amazing just how small a wave you can actually ride.
Windfoiling is easier, but I still think the boat is number one. I think the boat will help your wind foiling also. The key with the boat is removing all the distracting elements and allowing time just to be moving with out pressure of limitations. You can simply allow the feeling of gliding to sink in.
The smaller board is also much more sensitive, so if your feet are in the wrong place, you will start the "serpent wiggle" (an up and down and side to side semi out of control glide usually due to your front foot being off center), so not entirely the angle I would come from, however if you are a surfer and have popped up on a board more times than you can remember, then it's likely you will do a relatively good job of getting up well and centered.
We are only scratching the surface of foiling, and I believe there is still plenty to come. I urge everyone to play safe, take your time, baby steps and most importantly respect the foil!
Ride safe,
JB
Select to expand quotecoxy31 said..
Somethings just don't look rite
You know something doesn't look (or taste, or sound, or...) right most often means you are not used to it yet :-)
Everything that happened to surfing didn't look right at the time: fins, boards lighter than 50kg or less than 9', tail pads, leashes, ...
More seriously, straps are a hindrance if you have to move your feet around. What makes them so great for SUP foiling is that (unless you are as good as Austin or Marlon), moving your feet is a big mistake, so they help in more than one way. Surf foiling is quite different however, straps there are a pain to paddle prone with, and extra hard to slip on the pop-up.
Select to expand quoteJB said..
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one Colas, but I find that everyone I see out there that is actually wavefoiling at a decent level is not using them these days (unless going for airs).
Yes, I can understand that after some level you can choose to go strapless. Just like I refused to use straps at first when they appeared in windsurfing, having developed enough technique to think I didn't need them, or went strapless later for the added freedom in small conditions.
My point is that if you look at Zane video here, at some time he doesn't pay attention and his feet move out of the center line (at 0:17 for instance). Now he is so used to foiling that his body can keep balancing the foil with the feet anywhere, but for a beginner, a feet placement like this will instantly flip the board over and make the rider fall on the foil. Especially since on the first session, our reflexes is to move our feet when we lose balance. For learning to foil, a way to keep the feet in the optimal position is extremely important. I guess it could be half-straps or some raised pads (like Zane is actually using in the video) if too reluctant to using straps.
One thing that is getting over looked in all these post is most people surf off their back foot. Which is really bad for learning to foil. The foil is actually controlled by the front foot. This is why everyone does a back flip first up when learning . Your natural balance is back . Eventually the switch flicks in your head and you go to front foot pressure , then it starts coming together.
Until this happens you need to stand further forward to help keep it down , fighting your back foot pressure . The further back the mast FOR LEARNING also helps stop excessive lift. Once your brain switches to front foot by all means bolt on straps and move the mast forward for easier lift and big manoeuvres , that's the big advantage of track mount foils , but again it takes time to get to that level.
This a really good video of what I am talking about. This is Matt Carrot the world record holder for continuous wake boarding and obviously a back foot pressure rider. He has his back foot on the mast but look at his front foot almost off the grip controlling the foil.
Yup. The mental image I used, that I describe at my post for my 3rd session, was "And what helped is forgetting all the images of people pumping their SUP, and focalising on the "crouched forward on the nose" tube riding style like:
Actually, it feels quite natural: when the foil lifts, it is the same kind of stress as when a waves hollows out: the floor drops. So thinking "hey this is a tube forming, I must commit to the nose" is actually natural. Any attempt at pumping at my stage means disaster."
And if your foil mount is fixed (as with a tuttle box), moving your straps (or whatever you use to mark your feet position) forwards will do the same thing as moving back the foil.
