Forums > Stand Up Paddle General

Low litres getting old

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Created by Foam 4 months ago, 4 Aug 2018
Foam
WA, 686 posts
9 Aug 2018 8:16AM
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supthecreek said..
everyone has the freedom to chase whatever dream suits them, I like to try all boards

The "volume/shape" discussion is interesting and helpful.

SO.... how much difference does a few liters make?

I love the math, but I really need "hands on" to put a face on the numbers.

I research and test every board I can get my hands on.
I don my "Kook Hat Cam" and jump on.
the cam catches my unscripted comments as I test, so I can refer back to the video later. (like I did for this reply)

This day, I went to try my buddy's new 8'6 x 29.5 at 112 L to see if I could stand on it, on very flat-water.
Mr Big joined us with his 8'2 x 32" wide at 109 L.... so we had a 3 way test, before we enjoyed a nice paddle session.

Exact weight as I left the house = 109 kg (digital scale)
Age = 69 yo at the time last fall.
I always included age... because it is the "X" factor in any balance discussion.

I have to work hard, on all boards under 30" wide,
so I would have bet anything that the 32" wide board would have been noticeably easier.
Wrong.
I never stood on it..... it just sank to the bottom.
No way I was capable of paddling that wide board at my exact float volume.

We were ALL shocked at how easy I found the narrower board.... which was 5 tiny liters more plus 4" longer.
BUT... it had a pulled in nose and tail with thin rails (pro model)
Maybe the extra length allowed me to keep the nose up and get to paddle speed.
whatever it was... it surprised all of us. Listening to the comments of my friends, showed they were as shocked as me.

I never published the video but learned a lot, which helps me answer balance/volume/width questions.








Also, try that with a deep jc pro or starboard pro at 112
Completely different game for a start no tanker nose

Foam
WA, 686 posts
9 Aug 2018 8:29AM
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So with the clear Answear that sup litres are never correct and true
Then the manufacturers and shapers need to Answear for.

Would a shaper be keen to shape you a board and say I done my best try it out as I have only a small idea that it's suitable for you or anywhere near what you asked for
But pay up.

worrier
WA, 724 posts
9 Aug 2018 9:48AM
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Silly question, Why do we measure volume in litres but length /width / and thickness in retard?

pumpjockey02
209 posts
9 Aug 2018 12:02PM
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Love that sequence sup the creek, man your doctor must freak out at you still paddling at 79, I met a kayaker at my local flatwater spot and told him that 71 was young for our sport he couldn't believe it. Keep up the stoke.
Pump.

colas
2845 posts
9 Aug 2018 1:04PM
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Foam said..
Would a shaper be keen to shape you a board and say I done my best try it out as I have only a small idea that it's suitable for you or anywhere near what you asked for



Actually, in my experience, you should never ask for specific dimensions from a shaper. You must describe at length how you surf, what kind of boards you like or not, what waves you ride, and what you are expecting of a board. And now that videos are easy to do, send him some videos of you surf/SUPing.

He will then translate your input in actual dimensions that he know will work for you based on the way he shapes. Trying to impose specific dimensions is often the road to disappointment. I know that all my Gong prototypes have been a surprise for me when I discovered their actual dimensions.

For instance, I know that Gong "oversizes" a bit the volume of their boards. I float without paddling on a "105 liters" Gong board, which should sink on my 100kg + the 12 kg of the board+paddle+wet winter wetsuit weights. I guess it is actually a 110 to 115 liters board, but I know that this extra volume is added consistently to all Gong boards. A bit like I know what shoe size I must get in my favorite shoe brand, but will have to try before buying other brands.

Try to get input on people who have ridden both JP & Deep boards, even not the models you are interested in, to see if they noticed a difference in the way they calculate volumes.

micksmith
VIC, 1231 posts
9 Aug 2018 3:05PM
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Foam said..
So with the clear Answear that sup litres are never correct and true
Then the manufacturers and shapers need to Answear for.

Would a shaper be keen to shape you a board and say I done my best try it out as I have only a small idea that it's suitable for you or anywhere near what you asked for
But pay up.


The big companies have no excuse, as volume is easily measured by displacement of water in a tank.
Don't give me crap about measuring length x height x thickness and all the technical mathematical equations. Displacement that's it simple. And as they have definite measurements sizes etc that don't change ( production ) they should get it right.

Foam
WA, 686 posts
9 Aug 2018 1:52PM
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micksmith said..

Foam said..
So with the clear Answear that sup litres are never correct and true
Then the manufacturers and shapers need to Answear for.

Would a shaper be keen to shape you a board and say I done my best try it out as I have only a small idea that it's suitable for you or anywhere near what you asked for
But pay up.



The big companies have no excuse, as volume is easily measured by displacement of water in a tank.
Don't give me crap about measuring length x height x thickness and all the technical mathematical equations. Displacement that's it simple. And as they have definite measurements sizes etc that don't change ( production ) they should get it right.


Correct, I have just learnt this the hard way after getting a recommendation from the shaper
Which now turns out was nothing but a brain fart.

Slow death of sup in the future if this carry in continues in the industry especially custom boards

DiscoStupid
NSW, 69 posts
9 Aug 2018 4:40PM
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If you are in the unfortunate position of not being able to demo, then simply give yourself 5 litres leeway. Then at least whatever you buy will float you. Stability effectively comes from the shape, don't get hung up on litreage. Happy paddling.

damo666
ACT, 158 posts
10 Aug 2018 7:40AM
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Foam said..


Foam said..
So with the clear Answear that sup litres are never correct and true
Then the manufacturers and shapers need to Answear for.

Would a shaper be keen to shape you a board and say I done my best try it out as I have only a small idea that it's suitable for you or anywhere near what you asked for
But pay up.




Correct, I have just learnt this the hard way after getting a recommendation from the shaper
Which now turns out was nothing but a brain fart.

Slow death of sup in the future if this carry in continues in the industry especially custom boards


Yeah nah.

As many have tried to point out - you are trying to use a single piece of information to determine the boards performance.
Volume is simply one of the may measurements involved, and in no way can tell you how stable/fast/good the board is.

Loz79
QLD, 456 posts
11 Aug 2018 2:35PM
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I'm my experience for my weight (75kg) a few litres didn't matter until I went below 100l... my 710
deep @ 92 litres I can surf in anything and never sit, my exact shaped 76 @ 85 litres is a battle in moving water. The trade off is the performance with the 76 out surfing the 710 by loads!

SunnyBouy
287 posts
11 Aug 2018 3:40PM
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Good debate chaps, some reasoned arguments for and against.
To add more to my post earlier...
I'm now a proud owner of a 7'9 x 30 1/8 Shroom.. I have an 8'3 already but suspect that will go up for sale soon.
So, small Shroomy. Yeah, not tippy as you'd expect. It's short obvz, but the main selling point of the Shroom IMO is it's fat plan shape. They trusted TOMO shape works really well in the Shroom, certainly for the small pocket mushy breaks during the summer over here (UK).
Suprisingly (or not) it's got a decent litr'idge too. So whilst the for/aft yaw takes a little getting used to, the side to side rocking is similar to most boards of a similar width/ltr.
Berts packed some pretty fine shape in it, those rails work very well in the smaller shrooms, the tails a little beaut for stomp & turn fun.
So to add to many comments on plan shape, I'm going to add in TOMO style shapes it you want to go smaller, it's worth the effort of like me you enjoy those onshore days of light wind and hip high mush.

I'm 179cm x 78ltrs ATM.

Just some thoughts from me.

Foam
WA, 686 posts
11 Aug 2018 8:05PM
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I have a 116 litre deep
And I'm looking at maybe going smaller at 92kg

Either fanatic prowave 110 litres

Or starboard pro 110

This is why i asked regarding any big change, if all three are performance pro type boards pulled in nose and tail, Low rails etc etc.

Would I still be to close to my current litres as I would of though 6 litres is bugger all but it appears there's all kinds of agreement and disagreement on that question.

supthecreek
1599 posts
12 Aug 2018 12:22PM
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Foam said:
"Also that board you are testing is not a pulled in nose or tail"


"Also, try that with a deep jc pro or starboard pro at 112
Completely different game for a start no tanker nose"

oh yeah, I see what you mean....

Starboard Pro
Test board with tanker nose, fat tail and thick rails
DEEP JC Pro
I didn't know this was a pissing match.... I thought you asked a question.




Foam
WA, 686 posts
12 Aug 2018 1:13PM
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Well there you go.

Proves that sups of ****ed and litres are completly wrong and all shapes full of ****

All this proves is your big.... And can stand on a board 1-1 more or less

colas
2845 posts
12 Aug 2018 1:42PM
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Foam said..
I have a 116 litre deep
And I'm looking at maybe going smaller at 92kg


If you are afraid of going directly to the 8'4" JC deep @ 103 L (which you could be able to manage with some practice), Why don't you just ask Deep for a custom model in between?
Something like 8'6" x 29.25" x 110 L ?

This way you will be sure you will shed exactly 6 liters from your current board, and have the opportunity to build a closer relationship with a shaper, which is very important in my opinion. I guess you have reached the stage where you outgrown the production models available sizing and need something more... custom.

Trying different shapers is great to expand your horizon, but settling with a shaper and refining your boards with him are the next step.

Foam
WA, 686 posts
12 Aug 2018 3:30PM
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I could stand on 80 litres, does not mean I could paddle anywhere

exiled
156 posts
12 Aug 2018 5:25PM
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If you can stand on 80L, you can learn to paddle it.

LastSupper
VIC, 123 posts
12 Aug 2018 9:03PM
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Why not tape 6 one litre water bottles under board and make it 86 ! Then learn to paddle it !!!

JBFletch
QLD, 1284 posts
14 Aug 2018 1:14PM
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Boards can be the same volume, but width, tail width, rocker and rail shape can totally change there stability and performance.
This is why demoing is so important.

As for me personally, I'm 75kg and loved the JCpro custom (78L) I was riding.
But now, due to not paddling as much as I wish, I have way more fun on the 10"1 JC (111l).

The key is to making it easy.
SUPing isn't meant to be hard.

Foam
WA, 686 posts
14 Aug 2018 12:35PM
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Yes very true

Don't get the question wrong guys I was just trying to work out a comfortable board that is on my limit
At 116 litres my current jc I want to go smaller at sine stage
And think 100 litres is just crazy but doable in clean surf only... Very clean surf
So I'm betting the best next thing that will hit by limit would be 108 /110 same shapes etc

But as this question got cross feed
It became unclear if there was a big challenge difference between the same identical boards at only 6 litres apart

colas
2845 posts
14 Aug 2018 3:46PM
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Just as an example, I had a session on a 115 litres board in glassy but bumpy waves, then the day after on a 105 board (my last vid on this thread). I weighted 96kg on these days.

The 105 liters boards was actually stabler! It was more submerged, so less moved by chop and had less latency to obey my movements. But it was more tiring, as I had to keep my balance actively. You gain some, you lose some. But what is the "stabler" option?

What I want to say is that when you reach the point where 5 liters are important, you need to experience things by yourself as there is no black-and-white, clear cut advice that can be had by others, everything is a compromise... and plenty of things become more important than just the liters.

If you cannot try boards, can you rent one?

Foam
WA, 686 posts
14 Aug 2018 5:40PM
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I have tried a lot of board but mostly 118 to 120 and at 93 kg wet these are easy but key for me is I have come to like very low rails
Or if you like sunken board somewhat
I like deep but there rails are nowhere what a prowave is
This was quite a shock to see the huge difference and assumed the deep would if been simaler but no.

However no demo option so pulled trigger and purchased but as mentioned not what I had in mind of performance rails as such.
But I'm glad I got it at least to get that out if the system

Kami
1282 posts
14 Aug 2018 6:48PM
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LastSupper said..
Why not tape 6 one litre water bottles under board and make it 86 ! Then learn to paddle it !!!


It's going to make the board more tippy than it was.
In the same time you point on what said JBFletch "Boards can be the same volume, but width, tail width, rocker and rail shape can totally change there stability and performance.
This is why demoing is so important."

Foam
WA, 686 posts
14 Aug 2018 6:59PM
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Or just keep buying all the used boards no bugger can ride

MattBailey
NSW, 33 posts
14 Aug 2018 9:51PM
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well you already know i'm riding 1:1 +/-5%. I just spent last 2 days trying out a 2017 8'2 Prowave @ 100Litres to compare to my 2015 8'4 Prowave @ 104L.

Granted, the nose of the 2017 is pulled in a tiny amount, and rails thinned out massively, but man does it SINK lol. Either the 2015 was understated in terms of volume or the 2017 was hopeful, it is 75% of the time (when still) so far under the tip of the nose is under. When a wave comes, the water nearly touched my knees! the 2015, my feet were constantly in the water, but scarcely did the nose go under....maybe 4 litres makes that sort of difference, but i wouldn't have thought so. It would seem as though even within the same model Litres dont necessarily feel like the same litres.

Anyway, FWIW, board surfs awesome, especially 'on rail' turns and off the top. For how far underwater it was, it wasn't too tippy either.

MickChard
VIC, 162 posts
14 Aug 2018 9:54PM
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Also i like having to take off right in impact zone on small boards its fun ..


JBFletch
QLD, 1284 posts
15 Aug 2018 7:33AM
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As above rails, tail rocker, tail shape etc all affect the boards stability.
Often the volume is not the critical factor, but more a guide.

Foam
WA, 686 posts
15 Aug 2018 8:30AM
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What is abvious these days is no-one including shapers don't advise on boards anymore when asking about litres

Answear is always.. Well we have guts riding 100 litres at 90kg

Well that's well and good but still a useless bit of information

You can already see sup sales dieing, and a used market forming with almost giveaway prices as misinformed purchases get sold

In turn loosing that buyer in the future from not being honest
Already race boards are being given away as it has become overwhelmed to some and the lack of information
The only real manufacturer I trust and that Answear what's needed regardless of board type is starboard.
So much bull and lies in this industry and I'm sure it's death will come

Or at least have to go back to selling boards at real word prices just to get sales.
Due to the fact you have to buy to try a lot of the time
And we all know our small sups can not be easy to sell sometimes.

I'm happy to pay 2k for a board but when dime short sups are at $3500 well come on....
And let's not forget race boards

This does remind me of the death of windsurfing

Sunkistcitizens
NSW, 32 posts
15 Aug 2018 10:39AM
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I'm 75 kg and 80 Litres is perfect on waves 3-5 ft - i was riding a Naish 8'0 x 25 x 80L
I also have a Naish 7'3 x 2 5x 74 L and this is great in 2 - 3 ft
if i had my way i would ride a 8'8 x 25 x 100 L in 6- 8ft
Im looking at ordering a Deep minion 6'8 x 4 1/4 x 83.5 L for comps and 1-3ft waves.

Low litre boards are great but your movement is restricted, and if you grow up surfing places like Newcastle beach or reefy style of waves where its pretty heavy the low litre board isnt going to help you too much.

cantSUPenough
VIC, 1650 posts
15 Aug 2018 12:14PM
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The key is to making it easy.
SUPing isn't meant to be hard.


This is the problem - the first decision we have to make is whether we agree with the above statement. If you want it to be "easy" then the board choice is much easier. But I am sure that is not what got this thread started.

I see lots of comments from the "apex" of the sup community - they are pushing the limits - which is fantastic. But if you compete, surf a LOT, have deep pockets (or are sponsored), then the situation is quite different to 95% of the sup market.

So when you want to push the limits you have to somehow assess how the combination of length, width, shape (esp. nose and tail), rail shape/profile, materials used/board weight, rocker, and other factors will make your board perform - which includes the question of stability.

All we have to go on is some marketing blurb and videos of pros riding the board - pros who can make an ironing board look good.

For 90% of us, renting/demoing is not an option. And besides, if you are choosing a board near your limits, one demo session in whatever the conditions happen to be at the time is not a 100% indicator of how it will perform for you longer term.

As an engineer, I would love the industry to adopt a modeling process - model the yaw, speed, stability (cross and end-to-end), ability to take a drop, maneuverability, etc. - and to do that with different weight riders. Only then could we compare apples with apples. But like I said, I am an engineer.



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"Low litres getting old" started by Foam