Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

Foil Front Wing Sizes - Windfoiling vs Wingfoiling

Reply
Created by eluviis 1 month ago, 11 Jun 2022
eluviis
59 posts
23 Jun 2022 3:48AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
boardsurfr said..

eluviis said..
If I knew what I was looking for I could easily spot what I need to make the foil work... but because I don't, I'm likely better off doing some research to find a good winD specific foil for my weight and go with that separately while I keep the Armstrong exclusively for WinG.



You could consider buying a used foil to get started with windfoiling, and upgrade it later. Just yesterday, a friend windfoiled for the first on a Slingshot i84 I had sold her. She got up for a few short runs, and was very excited about that. I borrowed her gear to check the tuning (she used an old HyperSonic 125 windsurf board), and was surprised how easy and steady the i84 was. I have since switched to various Starboard foils from 800 to 2000, which I've all grown to like a lot, but I think for beginner windfoiling, the Slingshot Infiniti foils are easier (84 if you're close to 200 lb, 76 if lighter, 99 in heavier or the wind is light). The Starboard 2000 front wing, which is similar in size to the i84, feels a lot livelier and turnier than the i84. That's great for me now, because it makes marginal sessions more interesting, but I think I would have struggled more when learning.


Thanks. This is a good idea. That said, I may have found a solution already. I'll update the thread when I know more.

Grantmac
1469 posts
23 Jun 2022 4:22AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Sandman1221 said..
simonp65 said..



Thanks Simon!, guessing he can not load up a lot of weight with the harness (hence the hunched stance) because the wing's inflatable boom would collapse under too much pressure.




You can load up a wing just as much as a sail. The inflatable booms are really rigid and can easily take all your weight without deforming in any noticeable way.

Sam Light in the picture is pro kiter and I think he's using a sort of kite foil stance. A windsurf style stance with a straight back also works.


guess you really have to pay attention to your foil height with that setup, since wing tip is way below the board, easy to catch a wave if you were on waves, looks like he is on flat water but all the same it could trip you up on flat water too.


Only for beginners, dragging a tip is something wingers learn to avoid early on.

eluviis
59 posts
29 Jun 2022 11:15PM
Thumbs Up

I got out again this weekend on a larger board (110L Magic Carpet) and a wing. Was a lot less work than the 85L I have and I can easily jibe and tack it slogging. Not much progress on the foil yet, but it's only my second session out and I'm barely counting the first session because there was almost no wind that first time.

I'm working on an Axis setup for WinD. It's likely going to be a 899 V2 Windsurf fuse, on the 90cm aluminum mast, HPS980 and 880 front wings, Speed 420 and Progressive 400 stabs. I want this board for WinD not WinG anyway. I have the 5.4 rig ready and waiting. Just have to wait for that foil. I'm also including the short fuse for WinG.

There was a guy out on a Armstrong foil but he was on a small 100L-ish freestyle board. I think the mast stiffness on such a small setup might not matter as much as on a larger board/sail. This all said, even though I'm JUST now learning to foil, I have other reasons for switching to Axis.

boardsurfr
WA, 1676 posts
29 Jun 2022 11:37PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
eluviis said..
I'm working on an Axis setup for WinD. It's likely going to be a 899 V2 Windsurf fuse, on the 90cm aluminum mast, HPS980 and 880 front wings, Speed 420 and Progressive 400 stabs. I want this board for WinD not WinG anyway. I have the 5.4 rig ready and waiting. Just have to wait for that foil. I'm also including the short fuse for WinG.\\


Keep us posted how it the gear works out for you! I am curious since most beginners I have seen started on much larger, lower aspect wings, which let you start flying at lower speed.

eluviis
59 posts
30 Jun 2022 12:49AM
Thumbs Up

Thanks ^^^ I'm stubborn because if my long background in wind, kite, surf, and SUP. But what I have proven to myself over the last 2 sessions is I should have just bought my buddy's used SS Infinity foil and started on that. Probably would be up and running by now.That said, I feel I'm one session away from seeing some real progress. Mind you, the Armstrong 1850 I'm learning on isn't a small foil... but it certainly isn't the 2400.I'm not counting a WinD session I had on borrowed gear on a 6.0 sail, 120 liter board and Neilpryde HP19 foil 2 months ago. That was my first time ever trying a foil and I actually spent more time up on foil that day than the next two sessions with a winG. However, it was blowing like 18 knots that day, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. The next two session were in 10 knots or so and with a WinG.

Grantmac
1469 posts
30 Jun 2022 3:10AM
Thumbs Up

10kts just isn't going to work to learn the wing and it would be very marginal for windfoiling unless you have race gear.

I think you made a good choice with Axis and people I know with the HPS really like them.

eluviis
59 posts
30 Jun 2022 4:53AM
Thumbs Up

Thanks. Yeah, 10 knots is horrid. That's the reason I stopped wind sports when I moved to San Diego. I got tired of chasing wind here as I want spoiled from Maui. But anyway, I have plans in the works and there are some 15knot+ days here.

finno3
VIC, 13 posts
30 Jun 2022 7:21AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Grantmac said..
If you are really dedicated to trying both foiling disciplines then you picked the wrong foil unfortunately. The Armstrong setup just doesn't work for windfoiling.

If I was picking one manufacturer for both it would be Axis. Second might be SAB but as a distant second.


Sorry grantmac that is untrue,Armstrong works fine for wind foiling.
Yes an 80cm fuse would possibly be better however using the shims to adjust the stab has worked for me.
The new CF range sits 2cm farther forward's is an option.
My largest foil is the 1550 smallest 1080 95kgs open ocean conditions

Sandman1221
2019 posts
30 Jun 2022 5:41AM
Thumbs Up

eluviis just an FYI, 10 knots is plenty good for windfoiling IMO, with an AFS F1080 cm2 wing and 5.8 Areotech Freespeed sail, am reasonably fast!

azymuth
WA, 1659 posts
30 Jun 2022 1:46PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Sandman1221 said..
eluviis just an FYI, 10 knots is plenty good for windfoiling IMO, with an AFS F1080 cm2 wing and 5.8 Areotech Freespeed sail, am reasonably fast!


You might be giving peeps the wrong idea - super rare to see someone get up in 10 kn with a 5.8 and that size foil unless they're demon pumpers. Be stoked if you upload a video showing how it's done

Ian K
WA, 3983 posts
30 Jun 2022 6:19PM
Thumbs Up

Saw a tallish, baseball-capped fellow e-foiling in 0 knots at south beach today. Carving and slashing with what I thought was inimitable style. Wasn't you was it?

boardsurfr
WA, 1676 posts
30 Jun 2022 9:39PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
azymuth said..

Sandman1221 said..
eluviis just an FYI, 10 knots is plenty good for windfoiling IMO, with an AFS F1080 cm2 wing and 5.8 Areotech Freespeed sail, am reasonably fast!



You might be giving peeps the wrong idea - super rare to see someone get up in 10 kn with a 5.8 and that size foil unless they're demon pumpers. Be stoked if you upload a video showing how it's done


Very valid point. After about 300 windfoil sessions, I can't foil in "10 knots" with a 7 m foil sail unless I get gusts are noticeably stronger with any of my front wings (800, 1300, 2000). Compared to other windfoilers I have seen at various locations, I'm above average with regards to getting going, although experts like Andy Brandt are in a different league. I'm around 85-90 kg.

That said, I have been told that I can foil in 8 knots by someone who "knew" how windy it was by just looking at the water. The local windmeter that measured about 5 meter above the water with a clear fetch was reading 12 knots. Had another "fail" example of looking at the water to see how windy it is just yesterday, when plenty of experienced windsurfers saw plenty of whitecaps and judged it windy enough, only to end up slogging most of the time. I rigged by the windmeter readings that showed 12 knot averages, and had a blast. 7.0 with 1300 front wing was perfect. A (slightly heavier) friend went out after meter readings had increased to 14 knots, and considered his 6.2/2000 combo perfect.

In my experience, good handheld meters read about 2 knots lower than "good" iWindsurf meters in the best case, although the details depend a lot on the wind direction and meter location. Some higher iWindsurf meters with excellent fetch read 5 knots higher in their "preferred" wind direction. Others read low in most wind directions because of nearby obstructions. Another common occurrence is that the wind gets weaker near shore even in onshore and side-on conditions. At our home spot (Kalmus), going upwind a few hundred meters increases the wind by a knot or two. In Florida and Texas, I've had days where you had to get away about a kilometer from the launch to get to where the wind was strong enough to foil or windsurf. Perhaps the most extreme example were the US Nationals a few years back, where the wind at the races was in the completely opposite direction compared to the launch, and was more than twice as strong. A system boundary that remained stationary the entire day had set up between launch and racing site.

IMO, statements regarding "X knots should be plenty for foiling" are completely meaningless (or worse, misleading) if you don't specify how you judge it to be "X knots". Plus the bodyweight - someone weighing 60 kg may have no problem foiling in a 5.8 in "10 knots", while someone weighing 90 kg may need Andy Brandt-level skills.

aeroegnr
799 posts
30 Jun 2022 10:12PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
boardsurfr said..


azymuth said..



Sandman1221 said..
eluviis just an FYI, 10 knots is plenty good for windfoiling IMO, with an AFS F1080 cm2 wing and 5.8 Areotech Freespeed sail, am reasonably fast!





You might be giving peeps the wrong idea - super rare to see someone get up in 10 kn with a 5.8 and that size foil unless they're demon pumpers. Be stoked if you upload a video showing how it's done




Very valid point. After about 300 windfoil sessions, I can't foil in "10 knots" with a 7 m foil sail unless I get gusts are noticeably stronger with any of my front wings (800, 1300, 2000). Compared to other windfoilers I have seen at various locations, I'm above average with regards to getting going, although experts like Andy Brandt are in a different league. I'm around 85-90 kg.

That said, I have been told that I can foil in 8 knots by someone who "knew" how windy it was by just looking at the water. The local windmeter that measured about 5 meter above the water with a clear fetch was reading 12 knots. Had another "fail" example of looking at the water to see how windy it is just yesterday, when plenty of experienced windsurfers saw plenty of whitecaps and judged it windy enough, only to end up slogging most of the time. I rigged by the windmeter readings that showed 12 knot averages, and had a blast. 7.0 with 1300 front wing was perfect. A (slightly heavier) friend went out after meter readings had increased to 14 knots, and considered his 6.2/2000 combo perfect.

In my experience, good handheld meters read about 2 knots lower than "good" iWindsurf meters in the best case, although the details depend a lot on the wind direction and meter location. Some higher iWindsurf meters with excellent fetch read 5 knots higher in their "preferred" wind direction. Others read low in most wind directions because of nearby obstructions. Another common occurrence is that the wind gets weaker near shore even in onshore and side-on conditions. At our home spot (Kalmus), going upwind a few hundred meters increases the wind by a knot or two. In Florida and Texas, I've had days where you had to get away about a kilometer from the launch to get to where the wind was strong enough to foil or windsurf. Perhaps the most extreme example were the US Nationals a few years back, where the wind at the races was in the completely opposite direction compared to the launch, and was more than twice as strong. A system boundary that remained stationary the entire day had set up between launch and racing site.

IMO, statements regarding "X knots should be plenty for foiling" are completely meaningless (or worse, misleading) if you don't specify how you judge it to be "X knots". Plus the bodyweight - someone weighing 60 kg may have no problem foiling in a 5.8 in "10 knots", while someone weighing 90 kg may need Andy Brandt-level skills.



The lowest I've gone with measured speed at the shore was 8-12kts with some gusts probably a little bit more. Not quite whitecaps. 5.6 freek with i76 and the wingers with 2000 wings were going but not me unless it gusted something like 14 on the rare occurrence. I got the 6.3 to work, those ~500cm2 on their front wings really helped the wingers though. For a 5.6 to be only a few pumps of for me I really want to see whitecaps. ~88kg

I think I've gotten the 9.0/900cm2 going in less than that but it was much more work and I didn't measure it. And it was FLAT. One day I'll measure and shim and try to go in really light stuff. But to your point the main spots I go with deep water no matter the tides have fluky wind that you need to sail out into the open spots that aren't in shore/building/tree wind shadows.

Another big thing is water condition. Pumping in disorganized chop/swell in light wind is a recipe for frustration. A little more sail, if possible, makes a bad session into something more enjoyable.

KDog
199 posts
1 Jul 2022 12:20PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
eluviis said..
I got out again this weekend on a larger board (110L Magic Carpet) and a wing. Was a lot less work than the 85L I have and I can easily jibe and tack it slogging. Not much progress on the foil yet, but it's only my second session out and I'm barely counting the first session because there was almost no wind that first time.

I'm working on an Axis setup for WinD. It's likely going to be a 899 V2 Windsurf fuse, on the 90cm aluminum mast, HPS980 and 880 front wings, Speed 420 and Progressive 400 stabs. I want this board for WinD not WinG anyway. I have the 5.4 rig ready and waiting. Just have to wait for that foil. I'm also including the short fuse for WinG.

There was a guy out on a Armstrong foil but he was on a small 100L-ish freestyle board. I think the mast stiffness on such a small setup might not matter as much as on a larger board/sail. This all said, even though I'm JUST now learning to foil, I have other reasons for switching to Axis.


I run axis HPS 930 as a light wind wing that 980 should get you going once you figure out how to make it fly especially if you have some flat water. The 380&420 speed stabs are very thin with a narrow cord also sharp and fragile you might be better off with the progressive.

Sandman1221
2019 posts
2 Jul 2022 7:55AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
azymuth said..





Sandman1221 said..
eluviis just an FYI, 10 knots is plenty good for windfoiling IMO, with an AFS F1080 cm2 wing and 5.8 Areotech Freespeed sail, am reasonably fast!







You might be giving peeps the wrong idea - super rare to see someone get up in 10 kn with a 5.8 and that size foil unless they're demon pumpers. Be stoked if you upload a video showing how it's done






No camera, sorry, but honestly 10 knots is a lot (and when I say 10 knots that means 10.0-10.9 knots) and it is not just about pumping sail, as well as foil too sometimes to add to speed, but it is about leaning out and getting your weight out over the water, that I learned from Andy Brandt. Relatively, not many people get lessons maybe? But hey, I was flying on my 5.8 when the local expert/shop owner was using a 6.8!, and he weighs a bit less than me.

And also on an AFS F1080 cm2 wing? and also a light 80 cm wide slalom board? Wider boards have more drag when on the water and trying to get up.

I see a lot of people here on relatively larger wings, but much over 1200 cm2 and you increase your drag making it harder to get up in light winds.

azymuth
WA, 1659 posts
2 Jul 2022 9:26AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote

Sandman1221 said..No camera, sorry, but honestly 10 knots is a lot, and it is not just about pumping sail, as well as foil too sometimes to add to speed, but it is about leaning out and getting your weight out over the water, that I learned from Andy Brandt. Relatively, not many people get lessons maybe? But hey, I was flying on my 5.8 when the local expert/shop owner was using a 6.8!, and he weighs a bit less than me. And also on an AFS F1080 cm2 wing? and also a light 80 cm wide slalom board? Wider boards have more drag when on the water and trying to get up. I see a lot of people here on relatively larger wings, but much over 1200 cm2 and you increase your drag making it harder to get up in light winds!



Sorry dude, I'm not buying it.
I'm sure you mean well but you're probably confusing newbies with some of your unsubstantiated claims here and on other threads.
Offering tons of advice can be useful but I think at some point you have to demonstrate/prove your skill level and experience so we can judge the value of your tips.

Your comment above - how are you "leaning out and getting you weight out over the water" in 10 knots with a 5.8m?

I need a 11-12 knot gust with a 6.5m sail to get up on a bigger 926mm (1,233cm2) front wing with a narrower 66cm board - I suspect given that you're still learning to foil gybe I've had a heap more foiling sessions

Sandman1221
2019 posts
2 Jul 2022 9:31AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
azymuth said..



Sandman1221 said..No camera, sorry, but honestly 10 knots is a lot, and it is not just about pumping sail, as well as foil too sometimes to add to speed, but it is about leaning out and getting your weight out over the water, that I learned from Andy Brandt. Relatively, not many people get lessons maybe? But hey, I was flying on my 5.8 when the local expert/shop owner was using a 6.8!, and he weighs a bit less than me. And also on an AFS F1080 cm2 wing? and also a light 80 cm wide slalom board? Wider boards have more drag when on the water and trying to get up. I see a lot of people here on relatively larger wings, but much over 1200 cm2 and you increase your drag making it harder to get up in light winds!




Sorry dude, I'm not buying it.
I'm sure you mean well but you're probably confusing newbies with some of your unsubstantiated claims here and on other threads.
Offering tons of advice can be useful but I think at some point you have to demonstrate/prove your skill level and experience so we can judge the value of your tips.

Your comment above - how are you "leaning out and getting you weight out over the water" in 10 knots with a 5.8m?

I need a 11-12 knot gust with a 6.5m sail to get up on a bigger 926mm 1233cm2 front wing with a narrower 66cm board - I suspect given that you're still learning to foil gybe I've had a heap more foiling sessions


Well like I said, the local expert who used to race formula, was using a 6.8 in the same conditions I was used a 5.8. Sounds like you need a lesson from Andy Brandt!

azymuth
WA, 1659 posts
2 Jul 2022 9:35AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Sandman1221 said..


azymuth said..







Sandman1221 said..No camera, sorry, but honestly 10 knots is a lot, and it is not just about pumping sail, as well as foil too sometimes to add to speed, but it is about leaning out and getting your weight out over the water, that I learned from Andy Brandt. Relatively, not many people get lessons maybe? But hey, I was flying on my 5.8 when the local expert/shop owner was using a 6.8!, and he weighs a bit less than me. And also on an AFS F1080 cm2 wing? and also a light 80 cm wide slalom board? Wider boards have more drag when on the water and trying to get up. I see a lot of people here on relatively larger wings, but much over 1200 cm2 and you increase your drag making it harder to get up in light winds!






Sorry dude, I'm not buying it.
I'm sure you mean well but you're probably confusing newbies with some of your unsubstantiated claims here and on other threads.
Offering tons of advice can be useful but I think at some point you have to demonstrate/prove your skill level and experience so we can judge the value of your tips.

Your comment above - how are you "leaning out and getting you weight out over the water" in 10 knots with a 5.8m?

I need a 11-12 knot gust with a 6.5m sail to get up on a bigger 926mm 1233cm2 front wing with a narrower 66cm board - I suspect given that you're still learning to foil gybe I've had a heap more foiling sessions




Well like I said, the local expert who used to race formula, was using a 6.8 in the same conditions I was used a 5.8. Sounds like you need a lesson from Andy Brandt!



I'm sure lessons would be useful, I've lots to learn.

How about answering the question I asked.

ZeroVix
296 posts
2 Jul 2022 12:43PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
azymuth said..


Sandman1221 said..




azymuth said..











Sandman1221 said..No camera, sorry, but honestly 10 knots is a lot, and it is not just about pumping sail, as well as foil too sometimes to add to speed, but it is about leaning out and getting your weight out over the water, that I learned from Andy Brandt. Relatively, not many people get lessons maybe? But hey, I was flying on my 5.8 when the local expert/shop owner was using a 6.8!, and he weighs a bit less than me. And also on an AFS F1080 cm2 wing? and also a light 80 cm wide slalom board? Wider boards have more drag when on the water and trying to get up. I see a lot of people here on relatively larger wings, but much over 1200 cm2 and you increase your drag making it harder to get up in light winds!








Sorry dude, I'm not buying it.
I'm sure you mean well but you're probably confusing newbies with some of your unsubstantiated claims here and on other threads.
Offering tons of advice can be useful but I think at some point you have to demonstrate/prove your skill level and experience so we can judge the value of your tips.

Your comment above - how are you "leaning out and getting you weight out over the water" in 10 knots with a 5.8m?

I need a 11-12 knot gust with a 6.5m sail to get up on a bigger 926mm 1233cm2 front wing with a narrower 66cm board - I suspect given that you're still learning to foil gybe I've had a heap more foiling sessions






Well like I said, the local expert who used to race formula, was using a 6.8 in the same conditions I was used a 5.8. Sounds like you need a lesson from Andy Brandt!





I'm sure lessons would be useful, I've lots to learn.

How about answering the question I asked.



LOL. Azymuth, good luck with that. Don't waste your time with him. He would learn more by just watching some of your videos.

Sandman1221
2019 posts
3 Jul 2022 12:04AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
azymuth said..



Sandman1221 said..





azymuth said..













Sandman1221 said..No camera, sorry, but honestly 10 knots is a lot, and it is not just about pumping sail, as well as foil too sometimes to add to speed, but it is about leaning out and getting your weight out over the water, that I learned from Andy Brandt. Relatively, not many people get lessons maybe? But hey, I was flying on my 5.8 when the local expert/shop owner was using a 6.8!, and he weighs a bit less than me. And also on an AFS F1080 cm2 wing? and also a light 80 cm wide slalom board? Wider boards have more drag when on the water and trying to get up. I see a lot of people here on relatively larger wings, but much over 1200 cm2 and you increase your drag making it harder to get up in light winds!









Sorry dude, I'm not buying it.
I'm sure you mean well but you're probably confusing newbies with some of your unsubstantiated claims here and on other threads.
Offering tons of advice can be useful but I think at some point you have to demonstrate/prove your skill level and experience so we can judge the value of your tips.

Your comment above - how are you "leaning out and getting you weight out over the water" in 10 knots with a 5.8m?

I need a 11-12 knot gust with a 6.5m sail to get up on a bigger 926mm 1233cm2 front wing with a narrower 66cm board - I suspect given that you're still learning to foil gybe I've had a heap more foiling sessions







Well like I said, the local expert who used to race formula, was using a 6.8 in the same conditions I was used a 5.8. Sounds like you need a lesson from Andy Brandt!






I'm sure lessons would be useful, I've lots to learn.

How about answering the question I asked.




RE: Your comment above - how are you "leaning out and getting you weight out over the water" in 10 knots with a 5.8m?

I need a 11-12 knot gust with a 6.5m sail to get up on a bigger 926mm 1233cm2 front wing with a narrower 66cm board - I suspect given that you're still learning to foil gybe I've had a heap more foiling sessions


FYI, Leaning out AND pumping at the same time any sail is a balancing act, for sure, and you need a stable platform to do it effectively, your narrow board makes it more difficult!, especially since you need to keep the foil wing level.

1) Narrower board than 80 cm not good for light wind foiling, can not get enough planing speed to take off in light winds. Sorry, that is a newbie mistake to use a board that narrow for foiling in light winds, regardless of rider weight
2) bigger wing does not help, creates more drag. And just surface area alone does not describe a wing's performance in light wind. What brand wing are you on, and what is the aspect ratio?

I have not made foiling gybes a priority until this past March when I got a lesson from Andy, and even then still not a priority, practice when conditions are right (steady wind and flattish water, but do not get that often) but have done several now, been foiling for 3 years year-round in very gusty conditions with 1-3' waves 2/3 of the time.

What is your complete kit, board, foil, sail, and your weight? If you are experienced enough, bet you would get up on my kit with the proper technique!

Grantmac
1469 posts
3 Jul 2022 1:36AM
Thumbs Up

Wide boards are inefficient, narrow boards don't work in light wind, smaller wings work better in light wind, switch to a smaller wing when your biggest gets overpowered, cutouts help low end, don't bother working on gybes, make sure you pad your recessed deck, keep those harness lines short and whatever you do don't forget to stretch your back 10x a day.

What a load of crap.

ZeroVix
296 posts
3 Jul 2022 1:56AM
Thumbs Up

Sandman ??,





Sandman1221
2019 posts
3 Jul 2022 1:59AM
Thumbs Up

I hear peanuts getting cracked, fortunately I can not see them!

Sandman1221
2019 posts
3 Jul 2022 3:25AM
Thumbs Up

The other trick to foiling in light winds on a slalom board (on top of leaning out while pumping sail) is to keep the board level front to back while you are pumping the sail, and because a slalom board tail will sink you need to stand forward of the front foot strap until you get the board planing, then you have to step back into front foot strap and also start pump the foil if needed, then when you have enough speed pop the tail to get up. Need to do that all in one smooth movement, otherwise you will disturb the foil and then you will not get up. And you need to do it fast so you get up in the gust before it passes you.

WhiteofHeart
750 posts
3 Jul 2022 5:22AM
Thumbs Up

Am feeling the need to say a little on the subject too so here goes. I think getting flying with a small sail in 10 knots is a feat pretty much no one can do, whatever the kit, and if you can, its like a once in a session thing after which you are exhausted. At least thats how it goes for me when I pump up my 4.6 or 4.9 in a 12 knot gust. After that I'm ready to go back to shore and enjoy a beer. An edited version of my reply in another topic which I think also applies here:

I'm a very active sailor & good pumper. If this is your style, a compact setup is great! By compact I mean mastfoot, footstraps and foil mast all crammed into a very small area. My foil mast is right underneath the backfoot (new school balz style, it has been like this on my setup for years now), mastfoot all the way back as far as it can go and boom way up high. This really increases the power you get from pumps. My board is 180cm, which I feel is a tad short for early flight, I think the optimal compromise length for an early flying foilboard is around 200cm. (As it gives some glide) Here, a nice parallel outline with square tail with a lot of volume will help a lot as it will allow to pump the foil as early as possible. A slalomboard for example due to the low volume & narrow tail cant be pumped the same way and is therefore later to fly in my experience (and I have both and used both extensively).

Here's an older vid of me pumping my kit (4.6 wavesail, 900cm2 foil and 105L 180x72cm board, parallel rails) up in a 12 knot gust on a 10-12 day. I was around 90kgs at the time. Doing this takes huge endurance and strength, which I no longer posses since I stopped racing. These kind of "feats" are no longer within the realm of possibility for me now. I picked up winging which allows me to do the same on these kind of days with similarly sized kit (1280cm2 foil as opposed to 900cm2), but with a lot less exhaustion as cost.

www.instagram.com/tv/ByP0omlhJ7m/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

In the same wind you can get up with less strength & skill using a bigger front wing. I prefer the smaller wings even in light winds because they are faster which helps me glide from gust to gust. I choose to exchange some lift in my setup for more time & distance when passing a lull up in the air. A bigger wing will get up earlier, but in my experience also travel less far in a lull where the wind is not enough to keep you powered up on either (the big or small wing). In the end its all a compromise.

Here with 'bigger' I mean a wing which is larger in surface area, but also lower aspect and thicker, as that is generally the way freeride wings are designed when they get larger. A large surface area, flat/thin, relatively high aspect wing would have a lot of both worlds, but for the brand (F-One) I ride that doesnt exist. I believe the SAB 1110 or the new F-One Seven Seas 1200/1400 (which are not fit for windsurfing due to the fuselage length) would be examples of such a wing.

Sandman1221
2019 posts
3 Jul 2022 6:23AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
WhiteofHeart said..
Am feeling the need to say a little on the subject too so here goes. I think getting flying with a small sail in 10 knots is a feat pretty much no one can do, whatever the kit, and if you can, its like a once in a session thing after which you are exhausted. At least thats how it goes for me when I pump up my 4.6 or 4.9 in a 12 knot gust. After that I'm ready to go back to shore and enjoy a beer. An edited version of my reply in another topic which I think also applies here:

I'm a very active sailor & good pumper. If this is your style, a compact setup is great! By compact I mean mastfoot, footstraps and foil mast all crammed into a very small area. My foil mast is right underneath the backfoot (new school balz style, it has been like this on my setup for years now), mastfoot all the way back as far as it can go and boom way up high. This really increases the power you get from pumps. My board is 180cm, which I feel is a tad short for early flight, I think the optimal compromise length for an early flying foilboard is around 200cm. (As it gives some glide) Here, a nice parallel outline with square tail with a lot of volume will help a lot as it will allow to pump the foil as early as possible. A slalomboard for example due to the low volume & narrow tail cant be pumped the same way and is therefore later to fly in my experience (and I have both and used both extensively).

Here's an older vid of me pumping my kit (4.6 wavesail, 900cm2 foil and 105L 180x72cm board, parallel rails) up in a 12 knot gust on a 10-12 day. I was around 90kgs at the time. Doing this takes huge endurance and strength, which I no longer posses since I stopped racing. These kind of "feats" are no longer within the realm of possibility for me now. I picked up winging which allows me to do the same on these kind of days with similarly sized kit (1280cm2 foil as opposed to 900cm2), but with a lot less exhaustion as cost.

www.instagram.com/tv/ByP0omlhJ7m/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

In the same wind you can get up with less strength & skill using a bigger front wing. I prefer the smaller wings even in light winds because they are faster which helps me glide from gust to gust. I choose to exchange some lift in my setup for more time & distance when passing a lull up in the air. A bigger wing will get up earlier, but in my experience also travel less far in a lull where the wind is not enough to keep you powered up on either (the big or small wing). In the end its all a compromise.

Here with 'bigger' I mean a wing which is larger in surface area, but also lower aspect and thicker, as that is generally the way freeride wings are designed when they get larger. A large surface area, flat/thin, relatively high aspect wing would have a lot of both worlds, but for the brand (F-One) I ride that doesnt exist. I believe the SAB 1110 or the new F-One Seven Seas 1200/1400 (which are not fit for windsurfing due to the fuselage length) would be examples of such a wing.



Oh I never mean to imply getting up in light wind was easy from a physical stand point, it is a workout that I enjoy! Now my runs are usually 3/4 to 1-1/4 miles long, and in light wind gusty weather a gust is a one way run, so when I turn around have to wait for the next gust and then pump up all over again, that does take effort on a 90 degree F day.

miamiwindsurfe
66 posts
3 Jul 2022 10:12AM
Thumbs Up

I have stated that on diff threads before...
I'm light weight 135lb, and know how to pump, biggest sail Goya cipher 5.1, while IQ foil guys need 5kn to get going with 9m2,all i need is another half a knot with big front wing >=1500cm2. Of course not as fast or the same angle as they do... Just like someone on other post, i use short board where mast track/foil are close together, board width >=80cm

eluviis
59 posts
11 Jul 2022 2:22AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
finno3 said..

Grantmac said..
If you are really dedicated to trying both foiling disciplines then you picked the wrong foil unfortunately. The Armstrong setup just doesn't work for windfoiling.

If I was picking one manufacturer for both it would be Axis. Second might be SAB but as a distant second.



Sorry grantmac that is untrue,Armstrong works fine for wind foiling.
Yes an 80cm fuse would possibly be better however using the shims to adjust the stab has worked for me.
The new CF range sits 2cm farther forward's is an option.
My largest foil is the 1550 smallest 1080 95kgs open ocean conditions


What fuse are you using though. I could imagine that the 70 would be bit of a satisfactory compromise.

eluviis
59 posts
11 Jul 2022 2:38AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Sandman1221 said..
eluviis just an FYI, 10 knots is plenty good for windfoiling IMO, with an AFS F1080 cm2 wing and 5.8 Areotech Freespeed sail, am reasonably fast!


I know. Hard to explain, but it might have something to do with the "fullness" or density of the air... or how well it passes through. Or how much it gusts up and down. But 10 knots here feels like 6 knots in Puerto Rico.

eluviis
59 posts
11 Jul 2022 2:45AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
KDog said..

eluviis said..
I got out again this weekend on a larger board (110L Magic Carpet) and a wing. Was a lot less work than the 85L I have and I can easily jibe and tack it slogging. Not much progress on the foil yet, but it's only my second session out and I'm barely counting the first session because there was almost no wind that first time.

I'm working on an Axis setup for WinD. It's likely going to be a 899 V2 Windsurf fuse, on the 90cm aluminum mast, HPS980 and 880 front wings, Speed 420 and Progressive 400 stabs. I want this board for WinD not WinG anyway. I have the 5.4 rig ready and waiting. Just have to wait for that foil. I'm also including the short fuse for WinG.

There was a guy out on a Armstrong foil but he was on a small 100L-ish freestyle board. I think the mast stiffness on such a small setup might not matter as much as on a larger board/sail. This all said, even though I'm JUST now learning to foil, I have other reasons for switching to Axis.



I run axis HPS 930 as a light wind wing that 980 should get you going once you figure out how to make it fly especially if you have some flat water. The 380&420 speed stabs are very thin with a narrow cord also sharp and fragile you might be better off with the progressive.


Thanks. My order is pending. I haven't finalized it yet. On the list, I have a short (703mm) fuse for winging and a windsurf long (899mm) for WinD. But I'm considering downsizing both. Say, Ultra Short (643mm) for WinG and Standard (784mm) for WinD. Reason being, I intend to WinD smaller boards. I'm not really planning on riding wide race or slalom boards... where the longest 899 fuse might be more suitable. That 784mm Axis is still longer than the 70cm Armstrong. I do have one progressive 400 in the order, but the 420s is the speed. Maybe I should just get s smaller progressive instead. OR maybe a 425 progressive and the 400.



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Windsurfing Foiling


"Foil Front Wing Sizes - Windfoiling vs Wingfoiling" started by eluviis