Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

Old meets new

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Created by ZoltanL 4 months ago, 4 Jan 2019
Imax1
VIC, 1867 posts
12 Jan 2019 4:44PM
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joe windsurf said..
Georges used to windsurf and went to the dark side
in the winter, kiting on snow makes SO much more sense !!

&t=299s

i am one of VERY few who windsurf in the winter on ice n snow
even Yvente of quebecwind now uses kites in the winter ...



but has been known to windsurf in crazy cold condtions



but all this is NOT about foiling nor old versus new
will stop here now


Love the wading through icebergs , I thought I had it tough living in Vic.
I think my balls would actually climb inside my body .

WhiteofHeart
106 posts
12 Jan 2019 4:34PM
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CAN17 said..

joe windsurf said..
hey CAN17
where on Lake SImcoe are you ??
spent my teenage years in Keswick/Sutton/Jackson's Point
and NO windsurfing - were in motor boat - crazy teens
now dream of windsurfin on water and ice there

ice was > 12 inches thick where fisherman was
in the middle of the river were snowmobile tracks
less than -20 degrees C this weekend
with westerlies and 10 cm snow on ground
ALL are telling me to stay home :-)
we will see ...





I was just visiting relatives. But may get out for a skate again this weekend on the canals in lagoon city( west side of the lake), ice is super smooth I hear.
Saw someone using a umbrella like a windsurf sail with his skates. May have to give it a try

Will try to make it to the lake and see if any windsurfers are out. I have always wanted to try it on snow.

Ps, sorry for the brief thread hijacking ZoltanL.


Last year I went out with my skates and a sail, works pretty well, cut a tennisball in half and put it on your mastfoot, one hand on the mast below the boom, one on the boom, works like a charm!

@Zoltan, congrats to your ingenuity! Do you fly earlier with the raceboard than the formula? I thought you might because the raceboard accelerates much faster and has a higher speed slogging.

ZoltanL
ACT, 117 posts
13 Jan 2019 11:09AM
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Hi Whiteofheart,
Thanks. No, The formula board gets up MUCH earlier than the RB and stays there because of;
1. huge formula board surface area to (low) weight ratio...
2. perfectly matched with a powerful 8.5m 4 cam racing sail...
3. perfectly matched with Starboard GT foil with its 800cm2 front wing and 330cm2 rear stabiliser.

For me this combination feels like it hits a sweet spot for pure light wind AND strong wind foiling perfection!!! And I have plenty of room to make it even sweeter still:
1. Go carbon mast instead of alloy
2. Go bigger, 1100cm2 front wing + 550cm stab. + longer, 105cm fuselage for pure bliss, stable hyper light wind foiling...
3. Go bigger sail... I want 10 or 11m for flying (actually HOVERING) over flat water in very light to light wind. That's the next step for me - to push the lower wind boundary as well. For me, windsurfing /foiling are about chasing as many different experiences / sensations as possible.
1 board and sail is just not enough for me as I like diversity of feeling & experience.

joe windsurf
1456 posts
13 Jan 2019 7:57PM
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so ... forget about raceboard with foil ??

CAN17
217 posts
13 Jan 2019 10:40PM
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joe windsurf said..
so ... forget about raceboard with foil ??


I would imagine the length of the race board gives it too much weight up front. Width really helps with leverage over the rig as well. I use a formula board n foil and I wouldn't want it much longer. Foil specific boards are even stubbier then the formulas. Once up the nose doesn't really matter.

ZoltanL
ACT, 117 posts
14 Jan 2019 6:01AM
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joe windsurf said..
so ... forget about raceboard with foil ??


No way... it's just one in my fleet of 5 boards that can use the foil. It has a place like all the others.

ZoltanL
ACT, 117 posts
14 Jan 2019 6:07AM
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CAN17 said..



joe windsurf said..
so ... forget about raceboard with foil ??





I would imagine the length of the race board gives it too much weight up front. Width really helps with leverage over the rig as well. I use a formula board n foil and I wouldn't want it much longer. Foil specific boards are even stubbier then the formulas. Once up the nose doesn't really matter.




I'm also thinking of trying 2 foils in the CB slot... double the lift and half the strain on each foil. That way I think it's possible the RB will emulate the dual-foil Exocet - and allow me to fly under control with the entire board lifted out of the water and level on 2 foils. But it's an expensive option that I'm not keen to try just yet. Maybe next Christmas the foil fairy might visit again... lol. I'd also maybe like to try a Slingshot H2 foil in the rear behind the GT in front.

joe windsurf
1456 posts
14 Jan 2019 8:35AM
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Exocet
iFoil

scottydog
225 posts
14 Jan 2019 10:37PM
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ZoltanL said..
Hi Whiteofheart,
Thanks. No, The formula board gets up MUCH earlier than the RB and stays there because of;
1. huge formula board surface area to (low) weight ratio...
2. perfectly matched with a powerful 8.5m 4 cam racing sail...
3. perfectly matched with Starboard GT foil with its 800cm2 front wing and 330cm2 rear stabiliser.

For me this combination feels like it hits a sweet spot for pure light wind AND strong wind foiling perfection!!! And I have plenty of room to make it even sweeter still:
1. Go carbon mast instead of alloy
2. Go bigger, 1100cm2 front wing + 550cm stab. + longer, 105cm fuselage for pure bliss, stable hyper light wind foiling...
3. Go bigger sail... I want 10 or 11m for flying (actually HOVERING) over flat water in very light to light wind. That's the next step for me - to push the lower wind boundary as well. For me, windsurfing /foiling are about chasing as many different experiences / sensations as possible.
1 board and sail is just not enough for me as I like diversity of feeling & experience.


I was out foiling the other week with a few moths. What blew me away is how easily they got foiling in winds I could not. It wasn't till the winds were around 8 - 9 knots that I could pump up to foiling. Moths are using 8m sails and their foils are not all that big, but what they do have is very slender hulls to let them get up to foiling speed quite easily. Maybe a moth like board with a narrow center hull which the sailor skillfully balances until it's up and foiling could be one way to improve light wind foiling?

ZoltanL
ACT, 117 posts
15 Jan 2019 3:36AM
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scottydog said..







ZoltanL said..
Hi Whiteofheart,
Thanks. No, The formula board gets up MUCH earlier than the RB and stays there because of;
1. huge formula board surface area to (low) weight ratio...
2. perfectly matched with a powerful 8.5m 4 cam racing sail...
3. perfectly matched with Starboard GT foil with its 800cm2 front wing and 330cm2 rear stabiliser.

For me this combination feels like it hits a sweet spot for pure light wind AND strong wind foiling perfection!!! And I have plenty of room to make it even sweeter still:
1. Go carbon mast instead of alloy
2. Go bigger, 1100cm2 front wing + 550cm stab. + longer, 105cm fuselage for pure bliss, stable hyper light wind foiling...
3. Go bigger sail... I want 10 or 11m for flying (actually HOVERING) over flat water in very light to light wind. That's the next step for me - to push the lower wind boundary as well. For me, windsurfing /foiling are about chasing as many different experiences / sensations as possible.
1 board and sail is just not enough for me as I like diversity of feeling & experience.









I was out foiling the other week with a few moths. What blew me away is how easily they got foiling in winds I could not. It wasn't till the winds were around 8 - 9 knots that I could pump up to foiling. Moths are using 8m sails and their foils are not all that big, but what they do have is very slender hulls to let them get up to foiling speed quite easily. Maybe a moth like board with a narrow center hull which the sailor skillfully balances until it's up and foiling could be one way to improve light wind foiling?








Hi Scottydog, I agree. Another factor is moths have 2 wings - and so generate twice the lift - and their narrow centre hull generates very little drag. I think I already have a 'narrow moth-like board': it's the Steve Hayden (RIP) custom built Extreme Slalom board and it's extremely light (~7kg or about the weight of a carbon road bike) for its size. I think it will be great for foiling in light wind when matched with a powerful 7.7m Tushingham X-15 or 7.8m Severne Reflex. I think my Arrows 8.5m is just a bit too big for it... but will try all three sails on it today in under 10 knots. It's all about getting the right lift : weight ratio. I think there is lots of BS in foiling about needing a wide board to leverage the foil. Wide just gives extra stability and better early planing on a short (230cm) board. You can also get extra stability from extra LENGTH, but they're not as fast to get up and planing as a 'slapper' [but add a foil & BINGO... problem solved!!!!!]. You also need better balance on such narrow boards. Enter the 2010 RRD X-Fire V2 122L which at 77cm wide addresses this width/balance problem at a similar weight (7.5kg). For this reason, I think it will be a better light wind foiling board than the bigger and heavier BIC KPR 170 L formula board which suffers a 2-3kg weight penalty over the X-Fire... but then is a better match with the more powerful Arrows 8.5m sail! So, I think those 2 different combinations will turn out to be substantially equivalent in their light wind foiling performance. Again, I'm loving testing these 'radical' ?? ideas on my fleet :D


WhiteofHeart
106 posts
15 Jan 2019 1:30AM
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Relatively speaking formulas fly quite late. It is the ability to be able to handle an 8.6 (no point in going bigger at all except racing for a sub 90kg surfer.) which improves its early flight, but a 110 / 75*200cm board will fly earlier with a 4.8 (say about 12 kts for the average good foiler) than the formula which would need way more (15kts or so?) personally tested this with different setups, and the early flight is way more about matching correct sizes of sail than just having a bigger board. I can fly in 10kts with 4.8 on my 92L, but need a 7.0 in 10kts on the formula with the same foil (Lokefoil LK1 1200) to get going.

too big a sail is also diminishing, my rule of thumb for regular boards for foil is the normal sailrange the board is intended for -2m2.

The moth idea is kind of the same idea I had with the raceboard, seen as you don't have to go through the planing barrier, but in retrospect, in 6-8kts on the formula/8.6, or 10Kts on the 92L with 4.8 I skip the planing fase alltogether and go straight from standing still to pumping up on the foil, only getting up to speed when in the air. (Which defies physics I know, but some foils really feel like they do, its magical) Funnily enough the planing fase comes back when I am more powered up, think its a subconcious thing to increase control or something, because the standing almost still in the air before accelerating part is quite unstable.

looking at the pictures i can imagine you having quite a hard time keeping the boards in the air with the straps so far in front of the box. Ofcourse every bit of foiling is fun, but I can imagine the formula or Xfire having the best fore/aft balance.

ZoltanL
ACT, 117 posts
15 Jan 2019 4:43AM
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WhiteofHeart said..
Relatively speaking formulas fly quite late. It is the ability to be able to handle an 8.6 (no point in going bigger at all except racing for a sub 90kg surfer.) which improves its early flight, but a 110 / 75*200cm board will fly earlier with a 4.8 (say about 12 kts for the average good foiler) than the formula which would need way more (15kts or so?) personally tested this with different setups, and the early flight is way more about matching correct sizes of sail than just having a bigger board. I can fly in 10kts with 4.8 on my 92L, but need a 7.0 in 10kts on the formula with the same foil (Lokefoil LK1 1200) to get going.

too big a sail is also diminishing, my rule of thumb for regular boards for foil is the normal sailrange the board is intended for -2m2.

The moth idea is kind of the same idea I had with the raceboard, seen as you don't have to go through the planing barrier, but in retrospect, in 6-8kts on the formula/8.6, or 10Kts on the 92L with 4.8 I skip the planing fase alltogether and go straight from standing still to pumping up on the foil, only getting up to speed when in the air. (Which defies physics I know, but some foils really feel like they do, its magical) Funnily enough the planing fase comes back when I am more powered up, think its a subconcious thing to increase control or something, because the standing almost still in the air before accelerating part is quite unstable.

looking at the pictures i can imagine you having quite a hard time keeping the boards in the air with the straps so far in front of the box. Ofcourse every bit of foiling is fun, but I can imagine the formula or Xfire having the best fore/aft balance.


Agree and think the X-Fire will come up trumps as my go-to light wind foiler :D
Thanks for your own foiling insights too. Very valuable for people like me still early on the learning curve.
z

ZoltanL
ACT, 117 posts
15 Jan 2019 6:43AM
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Just confirming that moths have 2 foils as there is also a foil on the rudder.








CAN17
217 posts
15 Jan 2019 5:38AM
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ZoltanL said..
Just confirming that moths have 2 foils as there is also a foil on the rudder.









The wings are also super high aspect and really big! And yes times this by 2


There is also a new small foiling sailboat called a ufo ( Foiling cat). Simular to the moth.

azymuth
WA, 606 posts
15 Jan 2019 8:58AM
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WhiteofHeart said..
on the 92L with 4.8 I skip the planing fase alltogether and go straight from standing still to pumping up on the foil, only getting up to speed when in the air. (Which defies physics I know, but some foils really feel like they do, its magical) Funnily enough the planing fase comes back when I am more powered up, think its a subconcious thing to increase control or something, because the standing almost still in the air before accelerating part is quite unstable.




In a 10 knot marginal breeze (with a 5.7) I need some board speed to get up on the foil - which is hard with a 1.77m board that doesn't glide at all.

Do you have any video of your technique of "going straight from standing still to pumping up on the foil, only getting up to speed when in the air"

Content
NSW, 6 posts
15 Jan 2019 1:25PM
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Be great to see the video.I have a starboard 122 foilboard 130x75 and use a 6.7 hellcat with a AFS 95 F800 wing which is 1130 sqmt.
Im 90kg and need at least 12 knots to fly but once up i can glide through those 8 /10 knot lulls

ZoltanL
ACT, 117 posts
16 Jan 2019 12:31AM
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WhiteofHeart said..
Relatively speaking formulas fly quite late. It is the ability to be able to handle an 8.6 (no point in going bigger at all except racing for a sub 90kg surfer.) which improves its early flight, but a 110 / 75*200cm board will fly earlier with a 4.8 (say about 12 kts for the average good foiler) than the formula which would need way more (15kts or so?) personally tested this with different setups, and the early flight is way more about matching correct sizes of sail than just having a bigger board. I can fly in 10kts with 4.8 on my 92L, but need a 7.0 in 10kts on the formula with the same foil (Lokefoil LK1 1200) to get going.

too big a sail is also diminishing, my rule of thumb for regular boards for foil is the normal sailrange the board is intended for -2m2.

The moth idea is kind of the same idea I had with the raceboard, seen as you don't have to go through the planing barrier, but in retrospect, in 6-8kts on the formula/8.6, or 10Kts on the 92L with 4.8 I skip the planing fase alltogether and go straight from standing still to pumping up on the foil, only getting up to speed when in the air. (Which defies physics I know, but some foils really feel like they do, its magical) Funnily enough the planing fase comes back when I am more powered up, think its a subconcious thing to increase control or something, because the standing almost still in the air before accelerating part is quite unstable.

looking at the pictures i can imagine you having quite a hard time keeping the boards in the air with the straps so far in front of the box. Ofcourse every bit of foiling is fun, but I can imagine the formula or Xfire having the best fore/aft balance.



I use the front strap sometimes for a bit of extra control in stronger wind on the Bic KPR Formula & the Speed Race Board, but rarely lock myself into the back strap. I prefer middle of board or heel nesting in front of back strap.

when using formula board for slalom blasting, I find it a bit hard to get foot back out of the back strap.

Paducah
344 posts
15 Jan 2019 11:11PM
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azymuth said..

WhiteofHeart said..
on the 92L with 4.8 I skip the planing fase alltogether and go straight from standing still to pumping up on the foil, only getting up to speed when in the air. (Which defies physics I know, but some foils really feel like they do, its magical) Funnily enough the planing fase comes back when I am more powered up, think its a subconcious thing to increase control or something, because the standing almost still in the air before accelerating part is quite unstable.





In a 10 knot marginal breeze (with a 5.7) I need some board speed to get up on the foil - which is hard with a 1.77m board that doesn't glide at all.

Do you have any video of your technique of "going straight from standing still to pumping up on the foil, only getting up to speed when in the air"


Someone else doing it - if this is what you are referring to. I can done this but it's a lot of work for an older guy.

Content
NSW, 6 posts
16 Jan 2019 6:03AM
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All this pumping definitely gets the heart racing.That board in video is more like 110 to 120L as its still floating above the water.
When i take out my 90L freeride board and wind drops to 10kt its a real balancing act, as half my board under the water.Then if you would add the weight of the foil ,you need to be a super hero or 60kg person to get flying.

WhiteofHeart
106 posts
16 Jan 2019 6:33AM
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Content said..
All this pumping definitely gets the heart racing.That board in video is more like 110 to 120L as its still floating above the water.
When i take out my 90L freeride board and wind drops to 10kt its a real balancing act, as half my board under the water.Then if you would add the weight of the foil ,you need to be a super hero or 60kg person to get flying.




I don't have a video (yet). It feels like standing still and getting up to speed in the air, I do however most probably accelerate a 5km/h before getting up, just doesn't feel that way hhaha.

as for the small boards thing, my 92L has almost all volume between the straps and has a very square tail (65cm for 69cm board), this makes floating around A LOT easier. Add to that, that the foils surface basically substitutes board surface when getting on the plane, alltogether it is a lot less superherolike. I have to say, due to the very backward volumedistribution and width I find it a lot easier to uphaul my 92L foilboard, than my 100L freestyle board.

i think I pump even faster / than shown in the horue video. I tried to count the pumps/second during sailing today, I think I'm pumping at about 4 pumps per second (peak, starting fast and slowing down when getting power) when using the really small sails, which is easily possible if you take into account that there is no sailpreassure at all. Also, I keep pumping when in the air to get the adequate board speed to keep flying. If I stop pumping after I get up in such small winds I just fall out of the sky immediately after getting up.

it is very hard to make claims about ones own technique, because one never sees oneself ;), I'm mostly describing my own observations about my technique and the behavior of my kit, although flying with 4.8 in 10 kts is a hard fact.

azymuth
WA, 606 posts
16 Jan 2019 6:46AM
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WhiteofHeart said..

Content said..
All this pumping definitely gets the heart racing.That board in video is more like 110 to 120L as its still floating above the water.
When i take out my 90L freeride board and wind drops to 10kt its a real balancing act, as half my board under the water.Then if you would add the weight of the foil ,you need to be a super hero or 60kg person to get flying.





I don't have a video (yet). It feels like standing still and getting up to speed in the air, I do however most probably accelerate a 5km/h before getting up, just doesn't feel that way hhaha.

as for the small boards thing, my 92L has almost all volume between the straps and has a very square tail (65cm for 69cm board), this makes floating around A LOT easier. Add to that, that the foils surface basically substitutes board surface when getting on the plane, alltogether it is a lot less superherolike. I have to say, due to the very backward volumedistribution and width I find it a lot easier to uphaul my 92L foilboard, than my 100L freestyle board.

i think I pump even faster / than shown in the horue video. I tried to count the pumps/second during sailing today, I think I'm pumping at about 4 pumps per second (peak, starting fast and slowing down when getting power) when using the really small sails, which is easily possible if you take into account that there is no sailpreassure at all. Also, I keep pumping when in the air to get the adequate board speed to keep flying. If I stop pumping after I get up in such small winds I just fall out of the sky immediately after getting up.

it is very hard to make claims about ones own technique, because one never sees oneself ;), I'm mostly describing my own observations about my technique and the behavior of my kit, although flying with 4.8 in 10 kts is a hard fact.


Interesting thanks - how much do you weigh?

WhiteofHeart
106 posts
16 Jan 2019 3:51PM
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azymuth said..

WhiteofHeart said..


Content said..
All this pumping definitely gets the heart racing.That board in video is more like 110 to 120L as its still floating above the water.
When i take out my 90L freeride board and wind drops to 10kt its a real balancing act, as half my board under the water.Then if you would add the weight of the foil ,you need to be a super hero or 60kg person to get flying.






I don't have a video (yet). It feels like standing still and getting up to speed in the air, I do however most probably accelerate a 5km/h before getting up, just doesn't feel that way hhaha.

as for the small boards thing, my 92L has almost all volume between the straps and has a very square tail (65cm for 69cm board), this makes floating around A LOT easier. Add to that, that the foils surface basically substitutes board surface when getting on the plane, alltogether it is a lot less superherolike. I have to say, due to the very backward volumedistribution and width I find it a lot easier to uphaul my 92L foilboard, than my 100L freestyle board.

i think I pump even faster / than shown in the horue video. I tried to count the pumps/second during sailing today, I think I'm pumping at about 4 pumps per second (peak, starting fast and slowing down when getting power) when using the really small sails, which is easily possible if you take into account that there is no sailpreassure at all. Also, I keep pumping when in the air to get the adequate board speed to keep flying. If I stop pumping after I get up in such small winds I just fall out of the sky immediately after getting up.

it is very hard to make claims about ones own technique, because one never sees oneself ;), I'm mostly describing my own observations about my technique and the behavior of my kit, although flying with 4.8 in 10 kts is a hard fact.



Interesting thanks - how much do you weigh?


86kg's, but I'm very fit, 192cm and its all muscles haha

joe windsurf
1456 posts
20 Jan 2019 8:55AM
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ZoltanL said..

CAN17 said..




joe windsurf said..
so ... forget about raceboard with foil ??






I would imagine the length of the race board gives it too much weight up front. Width really helps with leverage over the rig as well. I use a formula board n foil and I wouldn't want it much longer. Foil specific boards are even stubbier then the formulas. Once up the nose doesn't really matter.





I'm also thinking of trying 2 foils in the CB slot... double the lift and half the strain on each foil. That way I think it's possible the RB will emulate the dual-foil Exocet - and allow me to fly under control with the entire board lifted out of the water and level on 2 foils. But it's an expensive option that I'm not keen to try just yet. Maybe next Christmas the foil fairy might visit again... lol. I'd also maybe like to try a Slingshot H2 foil in the rear behind the GT in front.


check what frpgear are doing with 2 foils on one fin box connection



know they are NOT a fan of joe windsurfer

ZoltanL
ACT, 117 posts
20 Jan 2019 2:58PM
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joe windsurf said..


ZoltanL said..



CAN17 said..






joe windsurf said..
so ... forget about raceboard with foil ??








I would imagine the length of the race board gives it too much weight up front. Width really helps with leverage over the rig as well. I use a formula board n foil and I wouldn't want it much longer. Foil specific boards are even stubbier then the formulas. Once up the nose doesn't really matter.







I'm also thinking of trying 2 foils in the CB slot... double the lift and half the strain on each foil. That way I think it's possible the RB will emulate the dual-foil Exocet - and allow me to fly under control with the entire board lifted out of the water and level on 2 foils. But it's an expensive option that I'm not keen to try just yet. Maybe next Christmas the foil fairy might visit again... lol. I'd also maybe like to try a Slingshot H2 foil in the rear behind the GT in front.




check what frpgear are doing with 2 foils on one fin box connection



know they are NOT a fan of joe windsurfer



AWESOME!!! That video just increased the probability of me buying a second foil for the RB in a year to 95%

Twice the lift so flight at half the speed on a single foul.

Hereby named "RaceFoil 2.0"

ZYX
60 posts
17 Apr 2019 7:39PM
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ZoltanL said..


joe windsurf said..







check what frpgear are doing with 2 foils on one fin box connection



know they are NOT a fan of joe windsurfer




AWESOME!!! That video just increased the probability of me buying a second foil for the RB in a year to 95%

Twice the lift so flight at half the speed on a single foul.

Hereby named "RaceFoil 2.0"


:-)



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"Old meets new" started by ZoltanL