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Swapping Naish ws front wing with surf xl

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Created by joe87879 9 months ago, 20 Aug 2018
joe87879
28 posts
20 Aug 2018 2:38AM
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Hey Guys
looking for some advice on the potential to switch the Nash windsurf front-wing to the Nash surf xl wing. (1220cm2 vs 1572cm2)
I am really looking for light wind foiling - max wind is about 12 kts then our water gets pretty rough for foiling/launching etc
(180lbs,great lakes, fanatic blast 130 with easy cheetah 8.0)
Anybody try it. Thoughts?
Cheers
Joe

Hover62
20 posts
20 Aug 2018 5:56AM
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I have not tried the Naish but did the same thing with my Slingshot setup. I had an H4 wing and added an H10 which 83 CM. wide and just over 2066 square cm. I did get the larger small back wing to go with it and it made a huge difference in early planing. I sail in Lake Simcoe and as soon as I can see the odd white cap I can get planing with my 5.8 pumping hard, even earlier with the 7 meter which is the largest I use. Once flying I can carry on even if the wind drops quite low. I can even pump the board to keep going a while if the wind gets really low but it is easier to just wait for the next gust. So based on my experience it sounds like a good idea to get the bigger wing. Maybe the only possible down side is the speeds are not really high. I personally do not care about high speeds. I have used it in winds up to about 20 knots with a 4 meter sail. After that I would be using the smaller wing.

joe87879
28 posts
21 Aug 2018 9:31AM
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Thanks Hover

what kind of wind speeds can you get going in with the 7.0 and big wing?

Hover62
20 posts
21 Aug 2018 7:51PM
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Sorry I have not taken wind readings while out foiling. This is the first season where I have become competent, so the sessions on the 7 meter were a while ago and I was not flying that well. Here if the wind is light it is not steady usually. So with the 5.8 wave sail strapless on a 7' 10" BY 30" sup board that has some rocker in the tail I am guessing I get foiling in a 10 or 11 knot gust by can continue foiling after the gust to quite low but not sure what that is but if I drop off the foil in the lulls I cannot even pump the sail as there is not enough wind to resist the pump. I can go earlier with a kite but often prefer the windsurfer because in the lulls I am not swimming and can still make back to my launch site easily. Your Naish front wing is roughly the same size as my H4 wing, so even though it is a different design I would expect you to find a large difference in early planning with Naish XL wing the same as I did. Your take off speed should be much less and you can use smaller sails. I was using a 4.5 meter when regular windsurfers were using 6.5 and 7 meter sails.

joe87879
28 posts
21 Aug 2018 10:06PM
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Thanks again Hover - please keep this post updated on your progress with the big wing (would love to see some video!) . That sounds like it would be the ticket for really low wind foiling that I am seeking (something that foils in 7-8 to 12knots of wind with a 8.0).
Joe

Hover62
20 posts
22 Aug 2018 3:54AM
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Joe you got me wondering so I took the wind meter out this morning. When I started out it read just over 6 knots gusting to 10.5. The wind was onshore with nothing disturbing it nearby. So the reading should be close to accurate. I used the 5.8, 5 batten wave sail. Just moderate shape low and loose leech. I weight 180. I could not get up on the foil in the lulls but could pump up in the gusts and stay up once there. At the end when I finished took another reading and was up to 8 knots gusting 12.5 knots. I could foil all the time and went much faster. I checked a nearby wind meter and it read similar, 8 knots when I started and 9 when I finished. The wind there would not have been clean but still close to what I read. So with an eight you would definitely go earlier but I prefer the smaller sail because the wind is up and down. Sorry no video.

joe87879
28 posts
22 Aug 2018 10:32AM
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Great info Hover - thanks!
Are you running the 93cm alum slingshot mast?
joe

Hover62
20 posts
22 Aug 2018 10:48AM
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No I am using the 30 inch (75 cm.) one. Some of my launches are shallow out a long way, so this reduces the distance I walk. I am not having any problems with the length unless I head hard upwind into large swell then I breach a bit but can avoid that by reducing my upwind angle and staying flexible over the waves. In small swell I rarely have an issue. Even if I breach the nose just bounces off the water and I carry on.

Windgenuity
NSW, 255 posts
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22 Aug 2018 3:27PM
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joe87879 said..
Hey Guys
looking for some advice on the potential to switch the Nash windsurf front-wing to the Nash surf xl wing. (1220cm2 vs 1572cm2)
I am really looking for light wind foiling - max wind is about 12 kts then our water gets pretty rough for foiling/launching etc
(180lbs,great lakes, fanatic blast 130 with easy cheetah 8.0)
Anybody try it. Thoughts?
Cheers
Joe


Hey Joe,

Whilst this seems like a great way to get a tonne of lift in next to no wind, it doesn't work all that well. I tried it and found that although you get a lot of immediate lift, your speed is so limited that you do not get the full advantage of the apparent wind. Just the Large Surf wing will work a little better due to the thicker foil profile, and it still goes a little quicker, but the XL gets you up, then you kind of stall. A large part of why Wind Foiling works so well is the speed. The faster you can go in the lighter stuff the better. I think getting more efficient at your pumping and foiling is far superior to using a bigger wing.

Hope is helps,

JB

Hover62
20 posts
22 Aug 2018 7:09PM
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JB have you seen the Slingshot Infinity foils? If you have can you tell me if was the Naish foils are thicker than the Slingshot one I have. I was wondering if that is what limits the speed using a sail, although mine is not what i would call fast there is enough speed to make it fun. Glad you told Joe your experience.

JB
NSW, 1950 posts
Site Sponsor
23 Aug 2018 9:57AM
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Hover62 said..
JB have you seen the Slingshot Infinity foils? If you have can you tell me if was the Naish foils are thicker than the Slingshot one I have. I was wondering if that is what limits the speed using a sail, although mine is not what i would call fast there is enough speed to make it fun. Glad you told Joe your experience.


Hey Hover,

I have not ridden the Slingshot Infinity yet. But from what I have seen they are definitely a slimmer profile. However how the foil reacts and glides is relative to the amount of lift, drive, thrust and drag it creates. so it's a difficult one to compare. As a guide I find between the XL and L Naish Thrust Surf wings in similar conditions a difference on average of approx. 3-5kmph in speed. The XL gains stability sooner and at lower speeds, but the L will hit higher speeds sooner and easier. Surprisingly I have managed to surf the XL wing at just over 37kmph but usually it's more in the 25 - 33kmph range when you're powered. The Large I have clocked at 44kmph, but will often sit above the 30kmph mark.

Ride safe.
JB

Heliboy999
22 posts
23 Feb 2019 8:48PM
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Hi there.


I am 110 kgs and have been learning since last year.

I have the Naish Hover 144 and have the WS foil on a 70 cm mast.
I have replaced the front wing with the Surf XL wing with really good results.

I have done a series of videos following my progress and the last one was about the XL wing.

Have a look

&t=182s

Cheers

joe87879
28 posts
26 Feb 2019 8:32PM
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Here's a great video that reviews the Naish Xl and the infinity 84 (behind jetski).



Heliboy - any issues with the Naish XL and the speed topping out too early?

Joe

Heliboy999
22 posts
26 Feb 2019 9:45PM
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joe87879 said..
Here's a great video that reviews the Naish Xl and the infinity 84 (behind jetski).



Heliboy - any issues with the Naish XL and the speed topping out too early?

Joe


Hi Joe.

So far don't think I have found the top end but then again I am not good enough to tell if its the foil or my lack of technique.

The long runs I have had were very controlled and comfortable compared to the WS which seemed to always want to rail me, or stall on me because I was either going so fast to make it work or angling it too much due to light wind. The XL mostly had problems due to the rear wing stalling and diving the front wing due to the Vertical stabiliser breaching. The 70 cm mast doesn't give you much to play with in chop.

I want to be able to foil slower and more controlled which it seems to have done.

I think its all about scale. If you are 80 kgs and put this foil on you may find it hard to hold down. If you are 100 kgs you won't have so much problem.

Its just coming into spring here so I should have some more input soon.

Water temperature ( 5 degrees C) is still making may feet numb so control is short lived.

As to that video.
Its a short light board and i think the leverage is tiny compared to a Windsurf board. You can add mast foot pressure and use the weight of the rig to add front pressure to the foil and keep it down compared to the dedicated wake foil board.
I have primarily changed the foil to aid light wind foiling so top end is not my main concern, I may just have to keep it slow until the wind picks up and I can go back on to my WS wing.

I would prefer to be up and running having to watch my speed than be blobbing around not foiling because I am under foiled.

HB


joe87879
28 posts
27 Feb 2019 12:52AM
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Awesome info HB - thanks!

Keep posting your updates - I may just go for the Naish XL wing (as I already have the Naish setup and I am only interested in lightwind foiling).

I really wish would make a XL windsurf wing!

Joe

joe87879
28 posts
27 Feb 2019 3:31AM
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I posted too soon - could be my lucky day!


Naish Surf XX-Large Front Wing Tech Specs:
Front Wing Design:Downturned Delta FoilFront Wing Performance Characteristic:High LiftAspect Ratio:5.1Wingspan:100cmProjected Surface Area:1954cm?


www.naishusa.com/p/2019-front-wing-surf-xxl

Paducah
344 posts
28 Feb 2019 5:54AM
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Joe, how much do you weigh?

joe87879
28 posts
28 Feb 2019 6:58AM
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180lbs & sail in freshwater.

Joe

Paducah
344 posts
1 Mar 2019 12:06AM
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joe87879 said..
180lbs & sail in freshwater.

Joe



Mind the words of windgenuity above. Low flying speed doesn't necessarily meant super early take off in low wind. Big, lifty foils are also draggy. If you were 200+ , I think the extra lift would start to be more important which is why Heliboy999 found it useful.

translated from Glissattitude: marseille.glissattitude.com/blog/windfoil-test-stb-gt-alu.html

"Takeoff speed or mini wind?I take advantage of this topic to discuss an important point about takeoff capabilities in the light wind.The first infancy of foil (4 to 6 years ago) was with models based on large, thick, wide wings. The objective was to manage a high lift even with little float speed.Evolution is allowed to go to thinner and less wide wings to promote sliding and sensations. By dragging less water, it was found that the foil was allowed to take speed faster, and to go towards a better longitudinal stability. A smaller wing also avoids getting out of the water at all times. It was especially noticed that the big wings did not allow to sail with less wind.Indeed, ultra-strong wings will take off the float with very little movement speed, but as they drag much more water, they require at least as much wind as a wing finer.Manufacturers have realized that everyone was looking to glide in very little wind, they begin to offer huge wings. If they may have an interest in initiation (first take-offs), do not think they will allow you to hover with 5 knt of wind ... it's a sight of the spirit. In contrast, the range of use of wings will be lower."

iirc, they've mentioned elsewhere that they didn't really find the 1100 freeride wing to foil much if any earlier than the 800 because of this. The new 1000 is very efficient, like the 800, so does offer earlier lift off.

An efficient race/free race wing and foil from 900-1200cm will begin to accelerate once clear of the water in a way that a draggier foil can't and benefits from the increased apparent wind.

joe87879
28 posts
1 Mar 2019 6:20AM
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Yes I hear you Paducah about the bigger slower foils not really getting going in light winds - great info.

I have been reading alot about the slingshot infinity 84 wing (2066cm2) - some very positive comments about it. Very early take off and good control.
I'm hoping the new Naish wing is similar to the infinity 84!
Joe

RAL INN
VIC, 2695 posts
1 Mar 2019 10:25AM
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In regards the apparent wind.
i had a discussion about using big wings with Nicolas from Zeeko maybe 2 years ago, and having a higher aspect more efficient wing allowed a Windfoiler to take advantage of apparent wind much more effectively.
This came up again when I was discussing with him about using the XXLW Spitfire as a Windfoil.
yes there were some advantages, mainly in having one foil to kite Sup Surf and Windfoil. Also the carving sensation. But the downside is needing power to get foiling. Sort of raw power rather than some power that could be enhanced with apparent wind.
so at this point in time I see the large surf/Sup wings not being able to take advantage of as small a sail and as light a wind for us joe averages.
of course there will be some exceptional atheletes that will show it can be done.

azymuth
WA, 609 posts
1 Mar 2019 9:46AM
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joe87879 said..
Yes I hear you Paducah about the bigger slower foils not really getting going in light winds - great info.

I have been reading alot about the slingshot infinity 84 wing (2066cm2) - some very positive comments about it. Very early take off and good control.
I'm hoping the new Naish wing is similar to the infinity 84!
Joe



I've had one session with the 84 Slingshot Infinity wing (2,066 sq cm) - I reckon I was foiling in about 8-10 knots (no whitecaps) with a 5.7.
I would've needed 10-12 knots with the 76 wing (1,534 sq cm).
Control/feel was identical to the 76, actually carved really well too.
Foiling gybes are even easier with the 84 as you can foil slower

My guess is that freeriding/downwinding with small wave sails - bigger/thicker wings allow foiling in lighter winds.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's not correct for race foils and big race sails.

Paducah
344 posts
1 Mar 2019 10:03AM
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In 10-12, I'm fine on a freerace 1000 with a sail in the mid 5s. That's 50% less area but it's a very efficient foil. That's what I, and others, are trying to caution on - you can't simply say, "this foil has 1.5x the area so it will have a massively bigger low end."

The 84 does sounds impressive, though. And both the 76 and 84 are wonderful wings - not knocking them or how much fun you have on them. It's likely if I had conditions like yours, I'd be on the same kit. Where I am, the wind is very light and water is flat which favor an efficient foil which can easily accelerate.

Heliboy999
22 posts
7 Apr 2019 6:42PM
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Hi.

been getting out on the water finally after the winter but all the sessions have been overpowered on 4.5 and 5.0 sails so not really a good way to test out low speed foiling.

Managed to get a session yesterday but I have changed to a 90cm mast and also to the Naish Lift sails so lots of changes to counter.

Wind was showing 9mph to 15mph on the beach with occasional 19mph.

I originally changed to the Surf XL foil because the supplied WS front wing needed so much speed to get me up and foiling I was either not getting up and going or totally out of control when I was up. I wasn't learning. Since the change to the XL I am foiling almost the whole time on every session so I am enjoying the sport and learning.
The foil does respond well to pumping and is solid under foot as it starts to work. You feel the sail begin to lighten in your hands as it produces lift. Its not fast by any means but for me that is helping me because I am in control and able to pick my way through the chop and also raise the height for bigger chop ahead of going over it. The clip does show that I am averaging 13 mph speed and to be honest it feels fast enough for now. I had a day last week (which wasn't filmed but i did have my GPS watch on) sailing a 5.0 (20-25mph wind) and very powered up on flat water which allowed me to settle and fully weight my front foot. It almost felt like i was leaning forward of sail at some points and the nose was pointing down but the speed was greater, averaging 18mph with occasional 21mph.

I think it was Shlogger who said about standing up very "SUP" like that made a huge difference and I have adopted that stance which really helps to control the foil underfoot. I no longer rail over and lose control. We don't get the swells here, just wind chop but I have managed a couple of times to feel the wave pick me up and relax the back hand on the sail for a couple of seconds which feels great.

I put the WS back on when it was very powered on the 5.0 and it felt great. Faster for sure and a bit more sensitive in roll axis but nice to ride because there was wind and I have learned so much on the XL. Its now my Stronger wind foil and I now look forward to using it whereas before it stopped me from learning.








Select to expand quote
joe87879 said..
Here's a great video that reviews the Naish Xl and the infinity 84 (behind jetski).



Heliboy - any issues with the Naish XL and the speed topping out too early?

Joe

h20
VIC, 420 posts
7 Apr 2019 8:51PM
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Heliboy999 do you have your back foot in the back straps. Hard to see on videos?

Heliboy999
22 posts
7 Apr 2019 7:10PM
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h20 said..
Heliboy999 do you have your back foot in the back straps. Hard to see on videos?


Depends on wind strength.
In straps when lighter, back foot in front of straps when stronger.
Contemplating taking off back straps to be honest as I would prefer a single centre strap.

remery
WA, 366 posts
7 Apr 2019 8:26PM
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I've been testing the smaller surf foil on a Hover 122 with 700 mast. I found it not much more difficult to get up but a little more forgiving.

Heliboy999
22 posts
7 Apr 2019 9:36PM
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remery said..
I've been testing the smaller surf foil on a Hover 122 with 700 mast. I found it not much more difficult to get up but a little more forgiving.


What weight are you?

h20
VIC, 420 posts
8 Apr 2019 4:14PM
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Heliboy999 said..

h20 said..
Heliboy999 do you have your back foot in the back straps. Hard to see on videos?



Depends on wind strength.
In straps when lighter, back foot in front of straps when stronger.
Contemplating taking off back straps to be honest as I would prefer a single centre strap.


The reason I ask is that the back of board seems to slap a lot. I find with my hover 122 I need to be in straps 100% of time for really controlled flight. Only remove on gybes. I run my mast about 1cm fwd of the line with a small extra lift angle in the tail.

remery
WA, 366 posts
8 Apr 2019 8:50PM
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Heliboy999 said..


remery said..
I've been testing the smaller surf foil on a Hover 122 with 700 mast. I found it not much more difficult to get up but a little more forgiving.




What weight are you?



90kg (should be 85 (wife says I should be 80)).

Heliboy999
22 posts
9 Apr 2019 5:17AM
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Select to expand quote
remery said..


Heliboy999 said..




remery said..
I've been testing the smaller surf foil on a Hover 122 with 700 mast. I found it not much more difficult to get up but a little more forgiving.






What weight are you?





90kg (should be 85 (wife says I should be 80)).

I have 20 kg on you so the XL wing is needed. :0)



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"Swapping Naish ws front wing with surf xl" started by joe87879