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Lifejackets mandatory open water

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Created by EugeneZA > 9 months ago, 3 Jul 2016
BSN101
WA, 1599 posts
5 Jul 2016 2:32PM
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DunkO said...

In the name of safety the people enforcing this rule should be forced to wear one of these,





Does it float & keep your head above water

MikeyS
VIC, 1433 posts
5 Jul 2016 5:26PM
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HarryBech said..
Required in SA...I was fined so wore one &got hammered in a 4m swell,couldn't duck dive &broke neck ,losing consciousness only just survived...not worth complying ?



Sounds horrific. Looks like you're back sailing again though, thank goodness.

The authorities would probably argue it's just as well you were wearing a PFD, otherwise you would have drowned when you lost consciousness. Which might be true, yet the PFD got you into that predicament in the first place.

For anyone contemplating using an inflatable PFD, I suggest you put one on and manually inflate it when you're at the beach. They're a bitch, and unless you use a crotch strap, they end up riding around your ears. Which will certainly keep you afloat, but makes it really hard to swim or manoeuvre. They're great when uninflated and I wear one when I'm in my boat, but I don't expect to need it then. Much easier to sail with a vest, like a water skiing PFD.

robdddd
TAS, 164 posts
5 Jul 2016 5:44PM
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So this requires NSW wave sailors to wear a life jacket? Is that correct?

Or is there a loophole?

The wearing of a lifejacket refers to open waters and the definition for this is...
"open waters means navigable waters that are not enclosed waters."

There is no definition for "navigable waters" so it could be argued that navigable waters are where boats can typically navigate.....surely this excludes the surf zone?

hope this never happens in Tassie!

Zachery
584 posts
5 Jul 2016 3:49PM
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Harry if u had the money i think you should sue!!! then you would clear the way for us in SA, bold statement i know!!!

Chris 249
NSW, 1730 posts
5 Jul 2016 6:56PM
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robdddd said..
So this requires NSW wave sailors to wear a life jacket? Is that correct?

Or is there a loophole?

The wearing of a lifejacket refers to open waters and the definition for this is...
"open waters means navigable waters that are not enclosed waters."

There is no definition for "navigable waters" so it could be argued that navigable waters are where boats can typically navigate.....surely this excludes the surf zone?

hope this never happens in Tassie!


Well, I'd have a look at giving that line a spin, if I was in the surf (rather than way out the back when I was caught). When I was at uni I looked up the definition of "navigable waters" and found that there was an old UK case where it was said an artificial lake, big enough to race dinghies on, wasn't "navigable waters".

It seems that these laws may have been put through to make sure that all the states have similar laws. In that case, Tas will probably go the same way.

It costs money to get regs changed; we're going to need a determined effort to have these switched back. I wrote the submission that got these proposed laws canned a few years ago, but that was when they were only a proposal. I'm not confident it could be done that way again, with me just spending a few nights (and some time stolen in quiet times at work) doing the research and the writing. This time we'd need to get some specialist professional advice, and that means either a volunteer or $$$$$.

MrSpinout
NSW, 105 posts
5 Jul 2016 9:43PM
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Australia, as a nanny state, is becoming a ridiculous place to live. It has become a place where everything needs to be fined and enforced rather than reminding people to be safe and assume their own responsibilities.

Mr Milk
NSW, 1535 posts
5 Jul 2016 11:32PM
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It's really just rank hypocrisy. The same lawmakers who have jumped on the domestic violence bandwagon are doing exactly what they claim they are combating.
Using threats to control behaviour. It has nothing to do with public safety.

jn1
SA, 1748 posts
6 Jul 2016 9:07PM
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Zachery said..
Harry if u had the money i think you should sue!!! then you would clear the way for us in SA, bold statement i know!!!



Me and a mate sailed Murray Mouth Yesterday. We were there about 30min and a police car came flying into to the car park, stopped at the ramp and watched us for 10min before speeding off. So, I reckon there's a dobber at this spot (one of the lagoon front properties). Ringing up the police whenever somebody thinks somebody else is breaking the law is sooo South Australian


www.google.com.au/maps/@-35.5479859,138.8767161,527m/data=!3m1!1e3

Nb/ We were both wearing bouy vests and were abiding by the ramp signs.

J

geared4knots
TAS, 2472 posts
13 Jul 2016 8:08AM
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Tassie law (MAST), PFD is required on SUP, and pretty sure same for windsurf?

I know with SUP it must be worn at ALL times regardless of distance from shore. Exempt in surf zone. We use the inflatable bum bag style.

Are there actual approved lifejackets that are compatible with Harness hooks/harness??

I know Ion Vector, NP high hook , Naish Defender are all great, but not approved in Australia.
.

GazMan
WA, 702 posts
16 Jul 2016 8:47AM
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jn1 said...
Zachery said..
Harry if u had the money i think you should sue!!! then you would clear the way for us in SA, bold statement i know!!!



Me and a mate sailed Murray Mouth Yesterday. We were there about 30min and a police car came flying into to the car park, stopped at the ramp and watched us for 10min before speeding off. So, I reckon there's a dobber at this spot (one of the lagoon front properties). Ringing up the police whenever somebody thinks somebody else is breaking the law is sooo South Australian


www.google.com.au/maps/@-35.5479859,138.8767161,527m/data=!3m1!1e3

Nb/ We were both wearing bouy vests and were abiding by the ramp signs.

J



Are you sure there isn't a marine craft speed limit in those waters?

jn1
SA, 1748 posts
16 Jul 2016 5:54PM
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GazMan said..



It was 25-30 knots, pissing down side ways. Nobody there except me and my mate. Yes, I checked the signs. 4 knot limit within 30m of the house fronts. We were on the far side of the lagoon where the flat water is (SW wind direction). Sugars Landing is in the middle of nowhere and a 30min drive from the cops station (and an out-of-the-way drive). It's an SA thing mate. Ring the cops at the slightest chance somebody might be breaking the law. Move down here and you'll see what I mean (My guess is somebody dobbed us in because our life jackets weren't hi-vis).

Imax1
VIC, 1950 posts
16 Jul 2016 7:28PM
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I suppose if your fit , healthy , calm and know what your doing a PFT could be a hindrance , if your unconscious I would recommend a PFD. If the law became anal I believe there would be some groovy easy to live with PFD stuff to choose from. Everyone will benefit from it . Even then kiters could still wear shorts over the wettie and still drown less.

DunkO
NSW, 999 posts
16 Jul 2016 8:27PM
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What's the environmental impact of producing pfd's for all these potentially newly enforced users.

Chris 249
NSW, 1730 posts
16 Jul 2016 10:26PM
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Imax1 said..
I suppose if your fit , healthy , calm and know what your doing a PFT could be a hindrance , if your unconscious I would recommend a PFD. If the law became anal I believe there would be some groovy easy to live with PFD stuff to choose from. Everyone will benefit from it . Even then kiters could still wear shorts over the wettie and still drown less.




If you're unconscious, the only thing a PFD will do is help them find your body, as the head of US Sailing's safety committee once told me. Twenty percent of people who drown are wearing a PFD when they drown.

If you are in a normal windsurfing pfd, you don't normally float face up. If you do float face up and are unconscious or exhausted, the drag of your legs turns you until your face is facing upwind and you then normally die from drowning, caused by inhaling the water that is splashing into your face. It takes a while - an extremely nasty while, apparently, as you drown over a longer period of time.

You reckon everyone will benefit from "groovy" PFDs - may I ask exactly how the next person who breaks their neck because of a pfd will "benefit" from it?

NotWal
QLD, 6920 posts
17 Jul 2016 10:52AM
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^ How do you break your neck from a PFD?

patsken
WA, 670 posts
17 Jul 2016 9:48AM
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Chris 249 said..

Imax1 said..
I suppose if your fit , healthy , calm and know what your doing a PFT could be a hindrance , if your unconscious I would recommend a PFD. If the law became anal I believe there would be some groovy easy to live with PFD stuff to choose from. Everyone will benefit from it . Even then kiters could still wear shorts over the wettie and still drown less.





If you're unconscious, the only thing a PFD will do is help them find your body, as the head of US Sailing's safety committee once told me. Twenty percent of people who drown are wearing a PFD when they drown.

If you are in a normal windsurfing pfd, you don't normally float face up. If you do float face up and are unconscious or exhausted, the drag of your legs turns you until your face is facing upwind and you then normally die from drowning, caused by inhaling the water that is splashing into your face. It takes a while - an extremely nasty while, apparently, as you drown over a longer period of time.

You reckon everyone will benefit from "groovy" PFDs - may I ask exactly how the next person who breaks their neck because of a pfd will "benefit" from it?


Does that mean the other 80% aren't wearing a PDF ??

Pretty good odds I think...

mclovin
SA, 723 posts
17 Jul 2016 11:42AM
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NotWal said...
^ How do you break your neck from a PFD?


Well it starts by reading other people's posts. Harry went over the falls in the shore break due to too much buoyancy. The same reason all windsurfers in the surf oppose it. Fanning doesn't wear one because you can't duckdive well enough. I haven't had one occasion that it would have helped, many that would have seen me get smashed.

kato
VIC, 2473 posts
17 Jul 2016 7:22PM
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Chris 249 said...
Imax1 said..
I suppose if your fit , healthy , calm and know what your doing a PFT could be a hindrance , if your unconscious I would recommend a PFD. If the law became anal I believe there would be some groovy easy to live with PFD stuff to choose from. Everyone will benefit from it . Even then kiters could still wear shorts over the wettie and still drown less.




If you're unconscious, the only thing a PFD will do is help them find your body, as the head of US Sailing's safety committee once told me. Twenty percent of people who drown are wearing a PFD when they drown.

If you are in a normal windsurfing pfd, you don't normally float face up. If you do float face up and are unconscious or exhausted, the drag of your legs turns you until your face is facing upwind and you then normally die from drowning, caused by inhaling the water that is splashing into your face. It takes a while - an extremely nasty while, apparently, as you drown over a longer period of time.

You reckon everyone will benefit from "groovy" PFDs - may I ask exactly how the next person who breaks their neck because of a pfd will "benefit" from it?



Correct

So how do we change this stupid ruling?
Is AWA submitting anything in support of sensible regulations.

N1GEL
NSW, 861 posts
17 Jul 2016 8:27PM
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mclovin said..

NotWal said...
^ How do you break your neck from a PFD?



Well it starts by reading other people's posts. Harry went over the falls in the shore break due to too much buoyancy. The same reason all windsurfers in the surf oppose it. Fanning doesn't wear one because you can't duckdive well enough. I haven't had one occasion that it would have helped, many that would have seen me get smashed.


Fanning might not, but how often do you see him towing into Shippies. Think you'll find most big wave surfers wear flotation. Whether towing in at Jaws or windsurfing it, you'd still be wearing a pfd to get you to the surface as quickly as possible. Surfing is not a like-for-like comparison. It's about the size waves you're riding, not the craft.

mclovin
SA, 723 posts
17 Jul 2016 8:10PM
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If you are duckdiving either of those you are in a world of pain. I don't sail there, Harry wasn't sailing there. He was sailing in real world conditions with a slightly heavy shorebreak. Same kind of conditions Fanning would duckdive.

Imax1
VIC, 1950 posts
17 Jul 2016 8:53PM
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Ok , ill retract a comment . Not everyone will benefit from a PFD, but I think most will in a panic ****ty moment . I don't know what the answer is. I don't use one because the ones that really do work are like wearing a beanbag. I would consider a groovy hitech one if it didn't get in the way. Again , I'm sure if they were mandatory and the maket was huge they would make better options .

racerX
NSW, 366 posts
18 Jul 2016 1:34AM
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Imax1 said..
Not everyone will benefit from a PFD, but I think most will in a panic ****ty moment . I don't know what the answer is.




That's the whole point, where is the data that shows PFD use reduces the risk of injury or death in windsurfing, plenty of evidence of risk of injury, plenty of safe use while windsurfing without a PFD, as in other surf based board sports i.e. surfing. Just because you think it's so doesn't make it so!

Magic Ride
719 posts
18 Jul 2016 1:02AM
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Why not just come out with a PFD, coast gaurd approved windsurfing harness developed by windsurfing companies!! Heck, design one for kiters as well!! All they have to do is add more padding and foam to the harnesses and there you go. The harnesses barely float now, just make them so they really float well, but have it made the least floaty of all the other PFD's just to qualify for the law.

kato
VIC, 2473 posts
18 Jul 2016 8:03AM
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Magic Ride said...


Why not just come out with a PFD, coast gaurd approved windsurfing harness developed by windsurfing companies!! Heck, design one for kiters as well!! All they have to do is add more padding and foam to the harnesses and there you go. The harnesses barely float now, just make them so they really float well, but have it made the least floaty of all the other PFD's just to qualify for the law.

The problem with them is that they float !
I do wear a jacket sometimes that has very little float...it's a weight jacket.
I do understand that some may want to wear a pfd , I don't .
Remove the mandatory bit.

Magic Ride
719 posts
18 Jul 2016 6:58AM
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I am thinking about windsurfing manufacturers comeing out with a windsurfing PFD harness all built into one, not a vest, a harness. All it would be is just a beefier looking harness. I think it could be a success, if it's made right. This would make a nice compromise to the new law. I should design one myself and then market it and become a millionaire. Lol Surprises me one has not been designed yet.

Imax1
VIC, 1950 posts
18 Jul 2016 9:33AM
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We could just put floaties around our ankles

Magic Ride
719 posts
18 Jul 2016 7:52AM
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Lol!!!! I learned how to swim in them swimmies when I was just a lil thing. Love it!!!

John340
QLD, 1938 posts
18 Jul 2016 4:40PM
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I would never wear a flotation device in the surf whether I was surfing, windsurfing or SUPing.

However I wear an impact vest when sailing in any non breaking wave conditions (eg bay sailing, GPS speed sailing). The impact vest has flotation, its not an approved flotation device, but it keeps my head clear of the water without having to tread water. It also assists when I'm flying my cam sails when water starting. There are a number of popular brands of impact vest specifically designed for windsurfing - Prolimit, NP to name two. They work very well and are comfortable to wear.

Tony Wills
NSW, 233 posts
18 Jul 2016 5:32PM
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I'm a big fan of the Dakine impact vest for the reasons above along with the fact that it keeps your core warm as well. Even on the cooler days I was pretty much comfortable in a pair of boardshorts and rashie (with the impact vest). Agree that whilst it's not an approved PFD, it's better than nothing.





EugeneZA
NSW, 93 posts
18 Jul 2016 5:47PM
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<div data-block="true" data-editor="7gidu" data-offset-key="bpjp9-0-0">
<div class="_1mf _1mj" data-offset-key="bpjp9-0-0">Please sing the online petition that will be taken to roads and maritime. It is on the KA website, I am not associated, but at the end of the day this law impacts us all (kitesurfers and windsurfers).

us10.campaign-archive2.com/?u=2ff5579144193069ad4343c42&id=9d6c9af362



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"Lifejackets mandatory open water" started by EugeneZA