I am loving this discussion, it shows just how much our favourites are affected by our history.
IN summary this 65 yr old is spending a heap more time back on boards since falling in love with the LT. Decades of racing 4 Lightnings, 2 Mistrals, 3 Speeds got me seriously addicted to raceboards, but when the barn doors with deep keels came along I went back to racing multihulls for many years. Tried Formula, but yeah nah.

When my lovely wife suggested a few years ago to dump my pristine Pan Am, I reluctantly gave in. Those bigger later Eq2/Fanatic ULtra/Starboard Phantoms were the go in marginal conditions, but just felt so big in a blow that the smaller raceboards were fun in, unless you were still racing (very little around in QLD these days).

So I gave the LT a go, and it has lured me back because it is just so convenient. I can throw it on the camper at any place with a puddle or a river mouth, and I have an easy SUP, big waveboard, raceboard of sorts in one package, although I use a grid film old Aerotech 7. This arve I had a few hours spare and headed out of a muddy Cabbage Tree Creek and played carving up 1 m plus waves, laughing the whole time. It rails nicely upwind, and the growing family just love it. I love it and it is staying, although I am not really bothering to race it.

But the extra time on big puddles got me desperate for that mast track forward full railing upwind glide, and that ripping back straps downwind battleship game we all love so much.
So this sinner saw the mint condition 1985 barn find F2 Lightning on Gumtree for $300 a few weeks ago and I am in heaven again. Only 210 litres and quite a gun like the yellow Equipe, the conical single concave just froths like Mr Whippy all the time and in fact something in the concaves stops the upwind railing from tilting too far. Under 14 kg is very attractive too.

So like a girl using one earring to find the other lost one, since sailing this F2 I have found a latest World Cup I might be able to buy with red and black letters (same as the pink and blue lettered WC I should never have sold just because it was soft), as well as a mates 13.5 kg Fanatic Mega Cat in PC. Both probably more suitable to my 85 kg.

So the original question, is there a better longboard than the LT?
Dunno but you need to own one first to find out.

RichardG said..
My longboards are:
Windsurfer LT
Mistral Equipe 1.5 CHS 1993
Tiga Race Prestige 1989
F2 Lightning World Cup Race 1990.

All excellent but the LT gets the most use for racing and is an all around fun package. The other day at the Ledge to Lancelin we all turned up 5 or 6 of us for the daggerboard division, sadly the L2L race was cancelled due to lack of wind. The daggerboard division still could sail (while others remained beached), with some 4 keen Windsurfer LTs and one keen Mistral One Design (Atlanta 1994-96 model) headed out for a sail joined by a Naish SUP (under paddle) ridden by who I believe was the visiting Victorian victorian sailor Cato, a really nice guy and a SUP wave rider exponent. A lot of fun was had by the LT sailors in mucking about in the 3-5 knot winds and doing LT wavesailing in the reefs off Ledge Point. A bit more wind and it would have been wonderful. Thanks to Patrik Diethelm, WWA , volunteers and locals for organising the event at Ledge/Lancelin but we still had loads of fun, even though the race was cancelled, delivered to us by the LT. All boards are compromises but the LT is a very handy tool in the quiver and really can deliver fun in a cost effective simple package, one sail, one board, rider skill driven.

Yep, that was fun. Surprised you didn't get worked on some of those waves. I wish I'd packed the Mistral race board but something had to stay at home

I will be naughty and offer an 8.5 on any of my raceboards against the IC.
Div 2 could come to if you could find one alive, parted with mine long ago and only regret that under 5 knots.

delmar71 said..
Interesting discussion but as usual there's no 'correct' answer. You're level as a sailor, what interests you (racing, cruising, learning, etc), where you sail, etc, all feed into what a good choice might be.
I've come to the point where I've decided that managing the LT in 20kts plus, while slower than my short boards, is as much fun. Different, but just as fun. The no footstrap thing is just part of the skill set you need. You manage you stance as the CofE moves around and waves hit. All part of it.
If you're racing it's similar. It's less about the board, more about the boards. Aka more important to be all on the same thing than having the lightest and latest.
The tight racing, simplicity and low cost of the LT is v appealing. The 145 entries at this weeks nats seem to agree...

Yes very true. The only true raceboard is one that gets raced every week on any given Sunday or Saturday. Windsurfer Class (Windsurfer LT) is the only such class in Windsurfing that I know of.

plywoodboy said..
I will be naughty and offer an 8.5 on any of my raceboards against the IC.
Div 2 could come to if you could find one alive, parted with mine long ago and only regret that under 5 knots.

As a D2, Raceboard and INternational Canoe sailor (and top 3 in nationals in each class, so fairly up to speed on them all) I'd reckon the IC would have the edge in less than 8 knots wind. The class rules changed a few years ago and the new ICs are lighter, skinnier and of course faster.

Great IC vid thanks, they are certainly a weapon. Based my challenge on the average performances I have seen on them in Qld. They look bloody hard work in chop, I am sure a good raceboarder locked in footstraps would beat them upwind on that course and annihilate them downwind, but not here for that sort of debate.

Check out 100Boards on FB. About $4-4.5k to aus. I'd like but can't.

len024 said..
as a skiff sailor and windsurfer a raceboard on 8.5 would be about even with IC downwind but definitely not upwind the raceboard would be heaps quicker.
against a faster skiff like a 13ft skiff, 29er, 18ft skiff, cherub, 16ft skiff, 49er the canoe would compete. the raceboard would be on par with a 29er the yardstick for a 29er is 93 and canoe is 96.5 so therefore in theory the canoe is slower than the raceboard.

Actually the archival yardstick for a raceboard suggests it is slightly slower than a canoe. This is a strange debate somewhat removed from the intention of the original poster.

Grantmac said..


If I were the OP and I really didn't want to foil (which makes no sense but whatever)

foils blah blah blah.....yawn. This is a longboard discussion.

RichardG said..

delmar71 said..
Interesting discussion but as usual there's no 'correct' answer. You're level as a sailor, what interests you (racing, cruising, learning, etc), where you sail, etc, all feed into what a good choice might be.
I've come to the point where I've decided that managing the LT in 20kts plus, while slower than my short boards, is as much fun. Different, but just as fun. The no footstrap thing is just part of the skill set you need. You manage you stance as the CofE moves around and waves hit. All part of it.
If you're racing it's similar. It's less about the board, more about the boards. Aka more important to be all on the same thing than having the lightest and latest.
The tight racing, simplicity and low cost of the LT is v appealing. The 145 entries at this weeks nats seem to agree...

Yes very true. The only true raceboard is one that gets raced every week on any given Sunday or Saturday. Windsurfer Class (Windsurfer LT) is the only such class in Windsurfing that I know of.

amazing that you don't know of others, I thought you knew everything. One windsurf class I can think of that races a lot other than LT is called IQ,, surprised you haven't heard of the Olympics

cammd said..
Back to the question from the OP "I really enjoy my Windsurfer LT but often wonder if a longboard with foot straps could be more enjoyable in planning conditions?"

The answer is of course a longboard with footstraps would be more enjoyable in planning conditions than one without, that's why every single planning windsurf board since the invention of footstraps on windsurf boards 40 or 50 years ago has got footstraps, every single one. The manufacturer's don't put footstraps on planning boards just for decoration, they do it because its better with them then without.

ps. a modern sail makes them better too.

True, if you don't count the crazy French. AHD/AFS offer both the Tactik and the Sealion, both of which are planing hulls without straps. Tactik is like a pocket D2 with a deep V nose, planing tail, monster daggerboard and a big fin. I'd love to own one for upwind/downwind in steep chop. Sealion is a wide wave-fish which serves as SUP/Windsup/Windfoil/Wingfoil multiple concept, but it does windsurf plane off of twin fins and is even pretty fast off the wind. I do own one of those. They're now offering the Sealion with straps but the pure form has a lot going for it - superb waverider in onshore mush.

len024 said..
as a skiff sailor and windsurfer a raceboard on 8.5 would be about even with IC downwind but definitely not upwind the raceboard would be heaps quicker.
against a faster skiff like a 13ft skiff, 29er, 18ft skiff, cherub, 16ft skiff, 49er the canoe would compete. the raceboard would be on par with a 29er the yardstick for a 29er is 93 and canoe is 96.5 so therefore in theory the canoe is slower than the raceboard.

Current yardsticks put Canoe at 92.5 and 29er is 96.5, so Canoe is rated quicker. Modern Raceboard is rated 93 which is probably a bit slower than they should be. The Canoe is slow downwind in light winds so upwind and close reaching is where is really scores; last winter at the Keepit Kool regatta's river race one of them finished second across the line against a carbon Nacra 20, the world's #3 A Class Classic cat, a multiple Olympic medallist on a Hobie 18, and the national champion Formula 16 cat (sailing fully rigged but one up) in a race with moderate wind close reaching both ways. A D2 or RB could only have equalled that with lots of pumping, which changes everything.

I've been top 3 in Raceboard, IMCO, D2, LT and Canoe nationals and have sailed D2 v Canoe, Canoe v IMCO, D2 v Moth, RB v D2, etc so probably have an unusually good perspective. The reality is that all of them crossover in performance so much, and across such small wind bands, that in any one place and time one will probably have a major advantage and in the next bay or day the other will be unbeatable.

Chris 249 said..

len024 said..
as a skiff sailor and windsurfer a raceboard on 8.5 would be about even with IC downwind but definitely not upwind the raceboard would be heaps quicker.
against a faster skiff like a 13ft skiff, 29er, 18ft skiff, cherub, 16ft skiff, 49er the canoe would compete. the raceboard would be on par with a 29er the yardstick for a 29er is 93 and canoe is 96.5 so therefore in theory the canoe is slower than the raceboard.

Current yardsticks put Canoe at 92.5 and 29er is 96.5, so Canoe is rated quicker. Modern Raceboard is rated 93 which is probably a bit slower than they should be. The Canoe is slow downwind in light winds so upwind is where is really scores.

I've been top 3 in Raceboard, IMCO, D2, LT and Canoe nationals and have sailed D2 v Canoe, Canoe v IMCO, D2 v Moth, RB v D2, etc so probably have an unusually good perspective.

Hi Chris, I could not find a rating for a modern raceboard can you please advise if have you extrapolated from the "archival Open Class" or if the AS document below has been updated further without being published as yet ?
www.sailingresources.org.au/class-assoc/yardsticks/ Thanks.

Chris 249 said..

RichardG said..

Chris 249 said..

len024 said..
as a skiff sailor and windsurfer a raceboard on 8.5 would be about even with IC downwind but definitely not upwind the raceboard would be heaps quicker.
against a faster skiff like a 13ft skiff, 29er, 18ft skiff, cherub, 16ft skiff, 49er the canoe would compete. the raceboard would be on par with a 29er the yardstick for a 29er is 93 and canoe is 96.5 so therefore in theory the canoe is slower than the raceboard.

Current yardsticks put Canoe at 92.5 and 29er is 96.5, so Canoe is rated quicker. Modern Raceboard is rated 93 which is probably a bit slower than they should be. The Canoe is slow downwind in light winds so upwind is where is really scores.

I've been top 3 in Raceboard, IMCO, D2, LT and Canoe nationals and have sailed D2 v Canoe, Canoe v IMCO, D2 v Moth, RB v D2, etc so probably have an unusually good perspective.

Hi Chris, I could not find a rating for a modern raceboard can you please advise if have you extrapolated from the "archival Open Class" or if the AS document below has been updated further without being published as yet ?
www.sailingresources.org.au/class-assoc/yardsticks/ Thanks.

I've used "Open Class", which calculations years ago showed to be pretty good. That was when we were doing Windsurfer/Raceboard interclub racing in NSW. The calcs were also based on Dobroyd AC club racing which had top sailors in each class.

The first year we had Open RBs on 93 IIRC, IMCO/7.5 on 97/99, and Windsurfers (with class rule pumping restrictions) on 114. The series was won (narrowly) by the IMCO national champ (also #1 or 2 in Windsurfer lightweights) from the Windsurfer #1 or #2, who was also #2 on IMCOs at the time. Given that those sailors swapped places closely depending on what class they were sailing, the yardsticks looked very accurate.

FYI, at the LT nationals Nick mentioned that they were working on a new yardstick with pumping as per LT class rules and 108/109 was looking pretty good all-round when compared to dinghies. If I swap my Laser/Tasar cap with my LT cap that seems OK.

However, put it this way; if I was cloned (scary thought) and was racing myself on D2, IC, RB 9.5; IMCO 7.4; Laser, Tasar, Radial, or LT it would ALWAYS come down to whichever design was favoured in those particular conditions, which of course means that in any particular place the typical conditions may make any of the above unbeatable on average. The difference between the way each type performs in various conditions is way bigger than the difference between the way sailors from the top 3-7 nationally handle them on any one day. Some days on the LT I get whipped by Laser sailors who I whip easily when I'm on my Laser, other days no one can come close to the LT.

Thanks.

cammd said..

Chris 249 said..

cammd said..
Back to the question from the OP "I really enjoy my Windsurfer LT but often wonder if a longboard with foot straps could be more enjoyable in planning conditions?"

The answer is, of course a longboard with footstraps would be more enjoyable in planning conditions than one without, that's why every single planning windsurf board since the invention of footstraps on windsurf boards 40 or 50 years ago has got footstraps, every single one. The manufacturer's don't put footstraps on planning boards just for decoration, they do it because its better with them then without.

ps. a modern sail makes them better too.

Depends entirely on your personal choice, and there have been plenty of planing boards without footstraps. Every windsurfer planes, including D2s.

"Better" is also completely a matter of personal choice rather than anything being "better", just like the fact that my family's multis are more stable and have more "modern" sails than your yacht doesn't mean that they are better, and the fact that my cruiser may be lighter and faster than yours doesn't mean it's "better". There are plenty of people who have won lots on "modern" sails who sail LTs, for example.

It's all personal choice and perspective. I love Raceboards (and know them extremely well) but these days in planing conditions I go for the LT every time. You may choose differently but that's your personal choice and perspective. There is no wrong or right, just as there is no wrong or right if one person likes scotch and one like red wine. It's like choosing between living in a classic inner-city house on a trendy street versus living in a country acreage; they can't really be compared so neither is "better", merely different.

Yeah I get it's personal choice but I don't agree that really applies to footstraps when on the plane, clearly they offer more performance and more comfort and more stability/security. Every board that is designed to be sailed on the plane (as it's normal sailing mode) has them... d2's windsup etc don't fall into that category.

Why must some people insist the Windsurfer LT be great at everything, no board is great at everything but it seems that if someone asks if a different board may be better at this or that then RichardG and to a lesser extent others must insist that they wont be, it seems like insecurity. LT's are obviously great at what they are designed for, one design fleet racing, recreational cruising, maybe some paddling, the participation and sales numbers tell the story. But when it comes to having a blast on the plane I would argue there are better boards, namely ones with footstraps. That does not diminish the LT, it doesn't have to be great at everything, it is what it is, probably the best selling board in Australia in recent years but not the best planing one.

You're mixing categories.
1. Which is better performing in planing conditions? A = footstraps.
2. Which is more fun, more preferred. A = subjective.

I'm more secure and, I guess, can handle more power and more challenging water with my foot strap boards. But, as with my previous post, when am I having more fun? Very often (and more and more, it seems), on my LT.

Is it the best performing planing board? Nope, not even in my quiver. Is it the most fun planing board? For me, sometimes, yes!