Forums > Windsurfing General

North Sails 2021

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Created by GinoZanti > 9 months ago, 8 Apr 2021
Paducah
1891 posts
14 Jun 2022 9:51PM
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stehsegler said..
Sorry but I call bull**** on those Severne prices... or your shop is ripping you off. Australia is currently the most expensive market on the planet from what I see on the net. Nothing to do with Severne but supply chain and exchange rate issues. The Severne Pro edition Blade retails for about AU$1,500. RDM Red is AU$1,120. Both prices are inc 10% sales tax. You can get the RDM Blue which is in my opinion probably the better choice for the Pro Edition sails, especially if you are bit heavier for AU$899 inc. tax. These are RRP prices. If you buy more than one sail or an entire rig you should be able to a small discount.


Call it what you want but Severne is expensive in the US - prices before sales tax. And, no, the retailer is not ripping anyone off. Know them personally and they work hard and sell very fair. Bought a lot of gear from them. And compared to NP, Severne is a bargain. We're even further from China and there's no benefit from the recent strength in the US$ as prices were locked in a while ago.

www.nbwindsurfing.com/shop/Windsurf/Windsurfing-Sails/WaveFreestyle-Sails/p/Severne-Blade-Pro-2022-x22656547.htm

Another shop in the US (ignore the url, it's a 22 on the page)
boardsportscalifornia.com/product/2020-severne-blade-pro/

WindFlyer
99 posts
14 Jun 2022 11:25PM
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stehsegler said..


You are comparing a pure 4 batten wave sail with a 5 batten power wave sail. A better comparison would be using the S1 Pro. The 4.6 sqm S1 Pro is 2.62kg. That's only a 450 gram difference.



read again.
i actually did mention the S-1 Pro, and stated an "interpolated weight" of a hypothetical 4.7 (as they only make 4.6 or 4.8):

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WindFlyer said..
WARNING: more hands-on and facts-based commentary below.

as for quantification, reliability and usefulness, i'd offer these measured these data (from sails i had laying about):

* North Wave 3Di 4.7: 2.26kg
* Severne Blade Pro (membrane) 4.7: 2.97kg (~700g advantage to the North)
* Duotone SuperHero 4.7: 3.41kg (~1,150g advantage to the North)

[for kicks i looked up the specs of two other membrane sails, a hypothetical 4.7 SV S-1Pro (interpolated to 2.6kg) and a 4.7 Duotone SuperHero M (2.75kg), but as i don't have those available i didn't measure them].


i didn't make the S-1 Pro a key comparison sail because i don't have one (whereas i have a 4.7 Blade Pro), and the post i was replying to suggested that the listed spec weights were "unreliable".

all the same, by your own math the weight advantage still goes to the North.

(and if you want talk prices, sure go ahead and knock off 65 USD from the combo price. the North is still a long way less expensive)

WindFlyer
99 posts
14 Jun 2022 11:41PM
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stehsegler said..



Sorry but I call bull**** on those Severne prices... or your shop is ripping you off. Australia is currently the most expensive market on the planet from what I see on the net. Nothing to do with Severne but supply chain and exchange rate issues. The Severne Pro edition Blade retails for about AU$1,500. RDM Red is AU$1,120. Both prices are inc 10% sales tax. You can get the RDM Blue which is in my opinion probably the better choice for the Pro Edition sails, especially if you are bit heavier for AU$899 inc. tax. These are RRP prices. If you buy more than one sail or an entire rig you should be able to a small discount.



look "on the net" again. and call them whatever you want. but those are the SV prices in the US.

and prices have everything to do with Severne (SV sets them, and in fact i got them from an official SV price list). the "supply chain and exchange rate issues" affect all manufacturers.

as for the masts, yeah, sure, you can throw a Gorilla G3 if you want to make the overall price cheaper. but as i noted the point of the price comparison was to try to be as even as possible, so for that an EU-fabricated, 100% carbon was the only choice (Blues or Gorillas are not 100%).

bottom line: in the US with 2022 prices, you can get a new North and its mast for very little more ($1500) than just a similarly sized SV membrane sail ($1450 Blade Pro, $1385 S-1 Pro).

WARNING: more hands-on and facts-based commentary included.

duzzi
734 posts
14 Jun 2022 11:41PM
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WindFlyer said..
WARNING: more hands-on and facts-based commentary below.






















duzzi said..










After five pages of posts frankly I am growing doubtful.

Weight? Weight saving is very hard to quantify, because we do not know the weight/m^2 of the material, and we can only compare manufacturers total weight. And that is unreliable and rather useless. All it takes is to use a thin mast base protector, or a different length and number of battens, or a thinner mast sleeve, and you change plus/minus 200 grams in places that have nothing to do with the material used in the sail.










not quite. i have two issues with your argument.

the first is the implied premise that it's all about the weight. i realise it's fashionable around here (and internet fora in general) to have a large dose of cynicism about brands and their marketing, but to imply that sailmakers are heavily compromising on critical components affecting stability (like batten choices and luff sleeve materials) to make a "lightest" claim is a bridge too far. no sailmaker i've ever talked to subscribes to that premise. certainly light weight is a design/construction objective, but one that is balanced against range and stability (performance objectives) and durability.

the second is the notion that the "material used in the sail" is uniform throughout. looking at any wave film/ply sail, it's quite evident that a variety of materials of various thicknesses and weights are used. looking at a "membrane" sail, it is also evident that the load bearing fibres are laid out in different densities in different parts of the sail. and looking at a 3Di sail against the light, one can also discern different layups of the materials in different parts of the sail. to summarise, the weight per surface unit of the materials are different throughout the sail.

so sail designers/makers try to balance the materials they use in the locations they need to meet their performance and durability objectives while trying to minimise weight. and batten and luff sleeve choices are critical element of this effort. so yeah, at the end of the day it is "the manufacturers total weight" that we're riding. as for quantification, reliability and usefulness, i'd offer these measured these data (from sails i had laying about):

* North Wave 3Di 4.7: 2.26kg
* Severne Blade Pro (membrane) 4.7: 2.97kg (~700g advantage to the North)
* Duotone SuperHero 4.7: 3.41kg (~1,150g advantage to the North)

[for kicks i looked up the specs of two other membrane sails, a hypothetical 4.7 SV S-1Pro (interpolated to 2.6kg) and a 4.7 Duotone SuperHero M (2.75kg), but as i don't have those available i didn't measure them].

with respect your comments on some details of construction:
* mast protector: the North mast protector is similar in feel to the Duotone, if a bit less extensive; both are more substantial in feel compared to the Severne
* battens: the number is a choice of the sailmaker to meet their objectives; but in all three cases rod battens are used (not sure whether some are glass or epoxy, but i may look into this just for fun).
* mast sleeve: the North has by far the thickest and stiffest luff sleeve of the lot (very obvious when trying to rig). it is clearly evident that the material allows North to build a beefy luff sleeve without incurring a weight penalty (particularly on a wet sail).

by the same token, it is apparent that the material allows North to make other weight-saving choices: for example, the leech of the sail above the boom is finished "cut" instead of having to have a band of stitched tape; the batten pockets are "built-in", etc.



















duzzi said..










Performance? I just don't see why, or heard any reason why, a 4.7 3D sail, in which at least 1 square meter is regularly stitched window material, should be performing better than any other sail on the market. What exact advantage would the material give? Especially in a sail that is designed to de-power quickly, and for which stability in overpowered conditions is a secondary concern?








first, let's get some facts straight.

* the (measured) size of the window is nowhere near a square metre. it's actually not quite 0.6m (and nearly identical in size as that of the SV 4.7 Blade Pro, as membrane sails also have stitched windows).
* if stability in overpowered conditions was a secondary concern, then North failed miserably as the sail is incredibly stable in overpowered gusty conditions. i can't think of a wave or bump & jump sail that has been in the same league in terms of stability. (and yes, it does depower quickly too).

now for your question of what (performance) advantages would the material give. pretty much everyone i let try my membrane Blade Pros finds the feel of the material and weight of the sail to make it a "game changer". but hey, don't take my word for it, just read this quote from another poster in this same thread talking about them (emphasis mine):











SurferKris said..
I have a few of the Severne Blade Pro sails, 4.2, 4.7 and 5.3 from 2016. I bought them used in 2018 and these are the best wave sail I've ever had or tried. Yes, they are a little more sensitive/delicate compared to a thick monofilm sail, but it is well worth it. The cloth gives a little different feeling (compared to monofilm) and the low weight makes a big difference in marginal conditions. It has certainly changed my view of lightwind sailing in waves.











so, the (measured) weight of the North is lighter than the Blade Pro by about 2/3rds of a kilo, and the feel is both more direct and soft (and stable). where's the performance advantage? it's in what YOU can do with that feel and weight differential (SurferKris has said what it is for him in the case of the Blade Pros).

as i said, the feel is not easily described, but is best experienced. and as i also said, it's not for everyone, so it may very well not be for you.























duzzi said..










Cost? well, there the disadvantage is clear.










off the mark here.

there is no like for like product in the market now for an apples to apples comparison, so the costs have to be seen in perspective. and to do so i'll carry on with the three sails i've measured.
so for 2022 USD prices, i get:

4.7 Duotone SuperHero: 899 USD
4.7 North Wave 3Di: 999 USD
4.7 SV Blade Pro: 1,450 USD

let's also bring in the masts into the picture, using an EU-made 100% carbon mast across the board (Duotone 400 Platinum SLS $819, North 370 Skinny Pro $499, Severne 400 Red $810). that give us sail/mast prices of:

1,498 USD for the North combo
1,718 USD for the Duotone combo
2,260 USD for the Severne combo

sure, you can go for the North Ultimate mast ($669, or $270 extra) for top of the line performance. then at 1768 USD you're at a push with the Duotone (where you can also put down another $250 extra for a Platinum Aero mast)

so, i'm not seeing the clear disadvantage in cost to the North you mention. even in apples to oranges comparisons. if we were to say, for the sake of argument, that the North in feel/weight/performance is equal to or no better than a Blade Pro, it certainly has a significant cost advantage.

i'm sure there are other film/ply sail with their mast combos out there that can produce a lower overall price.
but as i said, the North is not for everyone.





Weight. Sorry, but you need to compare apples with apples. Not a 3+3/4 batten sail with a 5 battens one. Otherwise you are just wasting everybody's time. Best of course would be to find the weight of the fabric(s) and membrane(s) used in the sails. And then you can do a sensible comparison, not just repeat the commercial.

Performance. Well ... we have to trust the commentary of the two people who have used them. But you do oscillate from "a feeling that is hard to describe" and "needs to be experienced", to claiming that it is the most stable sail on the market (?), to saying that it is not for every one. Not exactly confidence inspiring.

Cost? Not twice but getting there. You can buy a Point-7 Salt 4.7 for Euro 639 vs 1049 of the 3Di www.surfpirates.de/?a=89120&lang=eng. A quiver of three sails, 4.2-4.7-5.2, would be Euro 1897 for Point-7 vs a nice 3147 for North.

I am sure these sails are nice, and I am much more curious to see the race ones, but the hype ...

WindFlyer
99 posts
15 Jun 2022 12:35AM
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duzzi said..




Weight. Sorry, but you need to compare apples with apples. Not a 3+3/4 batten sail with a 5 battens one. Otherwise you are just wasting everybody's time. Best of course would be to find the weight of the fabric(s) and membrane(s) used in the sails. And then you can do a sensible comparison, not just repeat the commercial.



go ahead and get a 3 & 3/4 batten sail and send it my way so i can weigh it and post its weight (or do that yourself) so we can all redeem our time spent on this forum.

as i said, i weighed the sails i had laying about of the same size (one 3Di, one membrane, and one film/ply).
i also listed the "spec weights" of two membrane 4-batten sails for reference which i cannot verify.
just stated the facts as i have them.
sorry if they validate "the commercial"

as for "sensible comparison". that's non-sensical to me because of the lack of homogeneity in weight of the materials across the entire body of the sails i've looked at (film/ply, membrane, 3Di).

ultimately, one is sailing the entire sail as it came off the bag: weight, feel, cost and all.
and one likes it or one doesn't. as i said
"it's not for everyone."




Select to expand quote


duzzi said..


Performance. Well ... we have to trust the commentary of the two people who have used them. But you do oscillate from "a feeling that is hard to describe" and "needs to be experienced", to claiming that it is the most stable sail on the market (?), to saying that it is not for every one. Not exactly confidence inspiring.



more than two people have used them.

to quote myself:
"the feel. it's not easy to describe - though i may try at some point - it just needs to be experienced."
simply means that i don't have the words to easily describe that qualitative aspect of the sail and those interested should try it instead of taking my word (or lots of commentary and speculation) for it.
some will like it, some will not.
as with any other sail in the market, it is not for everyone (certainly not for those who don't like the look, feel, material, weight or price of the sail).

to quote myself again:
"the sail is incredibly stable in overpowered gusty conditions. i can't think of a wave or bump & jump sail that has been in the same league in terms of stability."

i'm not sure how any of these comments are mutually exclusive or an "oscillation" of sorts.
i'm not trying to sell these sails to you or anyone, or inspire your (or anyone's) confidence.
just sharing some facts and impressions.


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duzzi said..


Cost? Not twice but getting there. You can buy a Point-7 Salt 4.7 for Euro 639 vs 1049 of the 3Di www.surfpirates.de/?a=89120&lang=eng. A quiver of three sails, 4.2-4.7-5.2, would be Euro 1897 for Point-7 vs a nice 3147 for North.



remind me again. are the Point-7 Salts membrane or 3Di?

they're not?

what happened to your "apples to apples" comparison or "otherwise you are just wasting everybody's time"?

WindFlyer
99 posts
15 Jun 2022 12:44AM
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duzzi said..



I am sure these sails are nice, and I am much more curious to see the race ones, but the hype ...



as i am.

the wave/x-over are likely not for me at this time. but based on my experience with the wave, if the performance is on the same level as other race sails and the weight and feel advantages i've personally experienced also translate to the larger sizes and formats, then the race sails will definitely be a very compelling option - even before some of the other rumoured innovations (air cams, etc) are factored in.

SurferKris
104 posts
15 Jun 2022 3:06AM
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The North 3Di 4.7 sail is listed as a 3 batten sail (?) at 2.35kg.
A slightly fairer comparison would instead be to compare e.g. the 5.3 size, as the 3Di then has 4 battens, and it is listed at 2.6kg.

This can be compare to the Blade Pro 5.3 (a 5 batten sail in all sizes) which comes in at 2.8kg (for the 2016 model which I have myself and have weighted).

The battens in the Blade Pro are all carbon, I don't know what North and the others are using.

duzzi
734 posts
15 Jun 2022 3:25AM
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WindFlyer said..














duzzi said..










Weight. Sorry, but you need to compare apples with apples. Not a 3+3/4 batten sail with a 5 battens one. Otherwise you are just wasting everybody's time. Best of course would be to find the weight of the fabric(s) and membrane(s) used in the sails. And then you can do a sensible comparison, not just repeat the commercial.







go ahead and get a 3 & 3/4 batten sail and send it my way so i can weigh it and post its weight (or do that yourself) so we can all redeem our time spent on this forum.

as i said, i weighed the sails i had laying about of the same size (one 3Di, one membrane, and one film/ply).
i also listed the "spec weights" of two membrane 4-batten sails for reference which i cannot verify.
just stated the facts as i have them.
sorry if they validate "the commercial"

as for "sensible comparison". that's non-sensical to me because of the lack of homogeneity in weight of the materials across the entire body of the sails i've looked at (film/ply, membrane, 3Di).

ultimately, one is sailing the entire sail as it came off the bag: weight, feel, cost and all.
and one likes it or one doesn't. as i said
"it's not for everyone."


















duzzi said..








Performance. Well ... we have to trust the commentary of the two people who have used them. But you do oscillate from "a feeling that is hard to describe" and "needs to be experienced", to claiming that it is the most stable sail on the market (?), to saying that it is not for every one. Not exactly confidence inspiring.









more than two people have used them.

to quote myself:
"the feel. it's not easy to describe - though i may try at some point - it just needs to be experienced."
simply means that i don't have the words to easily describe that qualitative aspect of the sail and those interested should try it instead of taking my word (or lots of commentary and speculation) for it.
some will like it, some will not.
as with any other sail in the market, it is not for everyone (certainly not for those who don't like the look, feel, material, weight or price of the sail).

to quote myself again:
"the sail is incredibly stable in overpowered gusty conditions. i can't think of a wave or bump & jump sail that has been in the same league in terms of stability."

i'm not sure how any of these comments are mutually exclusive or an "oscillation" of sorts.
i'm not trying to sell these sails to you or anyone, or inspire your (or anyone's) confidence.
just sharing some facts and impressions.
















duzzi said..








Cost? Not twice but getting there. You can buy a Point-7 Salt 4.7 for Euro 639 vs 1049 of the 3Di www.surfpirates.de/?a=89120&lang=eng. A quiver of three sails, 4.2-4.7-5.2, would be Euro 1897 for Point-7 vs a nice 3147 for North.









remind me again. are the Point-7 Salts membrane or 3Di?

they're not?

what happened to your "apples to apples" comparison or "otherwise you are just wasting everybody's time"?







Come on ... it is not a difficult concept: comparing a TOTAL sail weight is useless to learn about the weight of the sail material. TOTAL includes all the other paraphernalia, and the extra battens ... Point is that to this day I have no idea about the weight saving obtained using 3Di in the body of a windsurfing sail. I'd like to see some numbers just for curiosity.

And why should I not compare 3Di with the cost of a POINT-7 Salt, or any other wave sail for that matter? North 3Di costs almost twice as much as a Salt, and it remains to be seen if it offers any advantage.

WindFlyer
99 posts
15 Jun 2022 4:27AM
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WARNING: more hands-on and facts-based commentary included.




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SurferKris said..
The North 3Di 4.7 sail is listed as a 3 batten sail (?) at 2.35kg.



i guess the one i got to ride came in below spec weight.
and it does have a 3/4 batten.




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SurferKris said..
A slightly fairer comparison would instead be to compare e.g. the 5.3 size, as the 3Di then has 4 battens, and it is listed at 2.6kg.

This can be compare to the Blade Pro 5.3 (a 5 batten sail in all sizes) which comes in at 2.8kg (for the 2016 model which I have myself and have weighted).



have at it. get them, weigh them and post away.
i weighed and posted what i have (2021 Blade Pro), because your guys suggest the spec weights are "unreliable"

FWIW, stehsegler noted the 4-batten 4.6 S-1 Pro at 2.62kg. would be a better comparison.
guess what, the North is still lighter.




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SurferKris said..
The battens in the Blade Pro are all carbon, I don't know what North and the others are using.



haven't looked at the ones in the Blade Pro, but the ones in the North i rode are NOT carbon (not sure whether they're just glass or epoxy, like Duotone uses/used on the Idols).

but at the end of the day, for me anyway, the weight is just one attribute at play. it's the totality of the experience that makes, or makes not, the difference.

and hey, i get that the game changed for you with the SV Pro sails in 2016/2018.
and as you yourself noted, "the cloth gives a little different feeling (compared to monofilm) and the low weight makes a big difference in marginal conditions. It has certainly changed my view"

can you not accept that another brand or technology can be the game-change vehicle for other people?

(p.s. i do have Blade Pros too)

SurferKris
104 posts
15 Jun 2022 4:54AM
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WindFlyer said..
can you not accept that another brand or technology can be the game-change vehicle for other people?


Sure, I have no problem with that, I just think that one should make a fair comparison if one is looking at the weight.

WindFlyer
99 posts
15 Jun 2022 5:18AM
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SurferKris said..

Sure, I have no problem with that, I just think that one should make a fair comparison if one is looking at the weight.


i posted the data i could gather, readers can make the comparisons they seem "fair" and draw their own conclusions.

Mark _australia
WA, 21592 posts
15 Jun 2022 5:40AM
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Is the wave (3.75 batten sail) more stable than your Blade Pro?

WindFlyer
99 posts
15 Jun 2022 5:52AM
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duzzi said..




Come on ... it is not a difficult concept: comparing a TOTAL sail weight is useless to learn about the weight of the sail material. TOTAL includes all the other paraphernalia, and the extra battens ... Point is that to this day I have no idea about the weight saving obtained using 3Di in the body of a windsurfing sail. I'd like to see some numbers just for curiosity.




perhaps i misunderstood you. material weight is indeed the way to learn of material weight. and if that's the key metric to you, go for it.

but perhaps i did not make myself clear that, even if one confines oneself to the sail body, the "material weight" is not a useful metric to me.

for example, let's take the Point-7 Salt. i see that it appears to be made of two materials (monofilm and dacron). even if i assume (likely wrongly) that the same thickness/weight of monofilm is used throughout, knowing the weight per surface area unit of the monofilm and/or the dacron doesn't really tell me much about the sail body's weight. for that i would need to know how much of each is used. and even that information, would not tell me much about what i really care: how will the sail will feel in my hands out on the water. Andrea's description of where he's laid out the materials and what effect that has, along with the total weight of the sail are much more instructive to me - but still not substitute for a test out on the water. Andrea has also had to balance how many battens (and mini battens) he needs to get a stable sail in his target wind range, and has no doubt also paid attention to what luff sleeve material will give him the best compromise of stability, performance, weight and durability. it is that totality (and the price) that i'm buying when i get a sail and what will determine whether i like it or not.

as for the "material", as i understand things, "3Di" is not a material per se, but the name of the technology. the "material", such as it were, are "Dyneema Aramid" fibres which are laid out over a surface in different patterns and thicknesses and then "baked" together. to simplify, it's like 3-D printing a sail: some parts will have more of the fibres overlapping in different directions, others less, etc. so, even if you were to cut a square metre of sail and weigh it, your numbers would be different depending on which square metre you cut.




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duzzi said..




And why should I not compare 3Di with the cost of a POINT-7 Salt, or any other wave sail for that matter? North 3Di costs almost twice as much as a Salt, and it remains to be seen if it offers any advantage.




you can compare anything to anything else (apples to apples, to oranges, to burritos, to cars) to your heart's content.

just don't get on a soapbox and cry uncle and complain that one is "wasting everybody's time" when presenting data for which no true "apples to apples" comparison exists.

WindFlyer
99 posts
15 Jun 2022 6:07AM
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Mark _australia said..
Is the wave (3.75 batten sail) more stable than your Blade Pro?


going from "experience memory" yes.

did not go back-to-back on the North vs Blade Pro on the same day - as i wanted to maximise my time on the North.

WindFlyer
99 posts
15 Jun 2022 6:43AM
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JakeNN said..



Even on the recent NP sails, the bat-cam is hard to pull open to adjust. Even harder with cold fingers often causing a bit of pain.

As the batten tension is rarely adjusted, I'd just prefer the DuoTone allen key design with a smooth simpler design.



i'd agree.

i myself prefer the conventional batten key/tool tensioning systems. i like to have an immediate tactile and visual reference of the effect of tension adjustments. can't get that the the batcam system that requires to close to see the effect, and don't have a way to provide a tactile feedback.

Ben1973
793 posts
15 Jun 2022 8:22AM
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WindFlyer said..
i also listed the "spec weights" of two membrane 4-batten sails for reference which i cannot verify.
just stated the facts as i have them.





that bit made me chuckle
also you're doing a great job of talking people out of buying one.

duzzi
734 posts
15 Jun 2022 9:27AM
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WindFlyer said..










duzzi said..





Come on ... it is not a difficult concept: comparing a TOTAL sail weight is useless to learn about the weight of the sail material. TOTAL includes all the other paraphernalia, and the extra battens ... Point is that to this day I have no idea about the weight saving obtained using 3Di in the body of a windsurfing sail. I'd like to see some numbers just for curiosity.





perhaps i misunderstood you. material weight is indeed the way to learn of material weight. and if that's the key metric to you, go for it.

but perhaps i did not make myself clear that, even if one confines oneself to the sail body, the "material weight" is not a useful metric to me.



Well, I am not sure what there is to misunderstand: weight of a sail material is the ONLY metric of importance if one wants to claim, as North does, that 3Di is lighter than other sails materials ...

Flying Dutchman
NSW, 676 posts
15 Jun 2022 11:43AM
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My sail is the best it weighs 4 grams.



stehsegler
WA, 3307 posts
15 Jun 2022 10:40AM
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Flying Dutchman said..
My sail is the best it weighs 4 grams.




Looks pretty poorly made... I can already see a black tape patch at the top of the sail.

Flying Dutchman
NSW, 676 posts
15 Jun 2022 12:50PM
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stehsegler said...
Looks pretty poorly made... I can already see a black tape patch at the top of the sail.

It's a prototype 2027 Ezzy. Because of the arms race between brands, Ezzy has been forced to reduce quality to get the weight down. The sails will be made of recycled ultra thin condoms.

stehsegler
WA, 3307 posts
15 Jun 2022 10:54AM
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Looking at the prices across the board on those web sites I now understand why windsurfing has bit the bullet in the US...

Mark _australia
WA, 21592 posts
15 Jun 2022 12:58PM
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Flying Dutchman said.. Ezzy has been forced to reduce quality to get the weight down. The sails will be made of recycled ultra thin condoms.


I'm supplying the material for the Formula sails.

Flying Dutchman
NSW, 676 posts
15 Jun 2022 3:35PM
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Mark _australia said...
I'm supplying the material for the Formula sails.

Makes sense, there's no demand for the sails.

WindFlyer
99 posts
15 Jun 2022 2:01PM
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stehsegler said..


Looking at the prices across the board on those web sites I now understand why windsurfing has bit the bullet in the US...


and there can be sales tax on top, which can run as high as ~10% depending on where you live/buy.

WindFlyer
99 posts
15 Jun 2022 2:15PM
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duzzi said..



Well, I am not sure what there is to misunderstand: weight of a sail material is the ONLY metric of importance if one wants to claim, as North does, that 3Di is lighter than other sails materials ...




hrm; that seems a bit odd to me. the little info i have looked at (the recently launched North WS website mostly), clearly describes 3Di as a technology rather than a material; whatever mention of material i've seen mentions fibres (dyneema aramid in particular).

but since you may be significantly better informed of the brand and product claims than i am, you may undoubtedly be right.

in that case you should absolutely take your question up to North and demand that they provide the proof you need or cease making claims they cannot prove.

their website provides contact information:
northwindsurfing.com/pages/contact

aeroegnr
812 posts
15 Jun 2022 7:49PM
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WindFlyer said..



stehsegler said..



Looking at the prices across the board on those web sites I now understand why windsurfing has bit the bullet in the US...



and there can be sales tax on top, which can run as high as ~10% depending on where you live/buy.


The 6 month or longer wait due to global issues for some new equipment didn't help this either

Paducah
1891 posts
15 Jun 2022 9:11PM
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stehsegler said..


Looking at the prices across the board on those web sites I now understand why windsurfing has bit the bullet in the US...


Not only prices but the limited number of brands. It can be frustrating sometimes when I see the options available elsewhere. It's especially difficult when looking at things like foiling gear where the diversity of offerings is slim and shipping is expensive.

Anyway, thanks for checking out the links. Hope it provided some context.

stehsegler
WA, 3307 posts
15 Jun 2022 10:06PM
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Paducah said..
Not only prices but the limited number of brands. It can be frustrating sometimes when I see the options available elsewhere. It's especially difficult when looking at things like foiling gear where the diversity of offerings is slim and shipping is expensive.

Anyway, thanks for checking out the links. Hope it provided some context.


The irony is I remember a time when windsurf gear in the US, in particular the Gorge and Maui, was dirt cheap compared to Europe or Australia. In the early 90s I bought a custom from Windance for US$900. A similar board was about double that in Germany. Later bought some gear on Maui and again prices were quite a bit cheaper. The exchange rate about similar maybe a bit worse than it is now so can't be an issue with exchange rates.

Madge
NSW, 456 posts
16 Jun 2022 7:58AM
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The way that the North 3Di sails are made is in some ways a technology rather than a material. A material usually comes on a roll and has a directional thread line, or it's a film based product.

The North process is to build up layers, this can be of different materials, these are moulded on a wing line table, then vacuumed and cured. The batten pockets and patches are incorporated within the layers and not stitched in like a conventional sail. So no actual rolls of material are used rather than passes of the filament head over the various layers. Also no edging tapes are sewn on.

Membrane sails are different again. They are not moulded but the patches are in some ways incorporated between the layers. Still stitched together and edged.

The two processes are very different, each has its own merits as does a conventional panel sail, which I still really like.

I've made 3Di sails in the past for yachts and the new technology is another level again.

Henners
226 posts
17 Jun 2022 5:49AM
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WindFlyer said..
WARNING: more hands-on and facts-based commentary below.


Thank you very much for the review. I thought it was very insightful and interesting.
If you could only go for one set of sails would it be North?



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"North Sails 2021" started by GinoZanti