Paul Kelf said...

ZackAttack said...

Paul Kelf said...

Jman said...
There are plenty of good reasons you can use to justify buying online from overseas and I would not think less of someone for going down that path.

But at the end of the day its more money going offshore and it will cost jobs if we all do it.

Off the topic a bit but I just lost my job because our customers decided to buy from china and I can tell you there is know way we can compete because it is not a level playing field.

I would like to see at least 100% import duty on everything.
Then your money will stay here & there will be plenty of local jobs.
We might not sell as much dirt to China but maybe we could make something with it, they seem to, and then sell it to us

It's like the car industry, the government subsidise it to try & save a few jobs but then allow all the cheap crappy imports into the country to destroy the industry
Sadly people buy all the cheap crap that's imported

Sorry, but have to respectfully disagree. By protecting the automotive industry (or pretty much any manufacturing industry), the government is protecting inefficient industry in which other countries have a comparitive advantage in, they are diverting resources (from taxpayers) away from efficient industries in which Australia can compete worldwide in. So whilst it will prevent short-term structural unemployment, we are costing ourselves jobs in export efficient industries in the long run. Furthermore, it is likely to reduce Australia's economic growth and create inflation leading to lower real incomes.
Finally, it would be against the rules of the WTO.

I don't agree with subsidies either, farming included, that's why I think import duties would solve a lot of our problems.
Australian car companies are only inefficient when compared with the third word & that is mostly safety & wage issues.

What efficient industries in which Australia can compete worldwide?
I can't think of one, especially in manufacturing.

Mining.
But if you look at things on the other side of the coin if it wasn't for import duties/tariffs such as the EU's CAP, our agricultural industry would be in such a better place.

On the topic of whether to buy gear locally, I find buying locally has the advantages of being able to try demo gear before you purchase it so you can make sure you end up with gear that you like. A local retail on the southside of Sydney has a good model whereby he is pretty much based purely online but then has some gear that people can demo.

Sounds like a normal shop to me

Yes exactly, I was just addressing an earlier point Sailhack brought up.

So to summarise I'm all for supporting local windsurfing retailers, I would encourage people to, without them so much of what we enjoy about windsurfing would be lost. I'm just against the imposition of a 100% import duty, that is all.

Paul Kelf said...
It would create jobs for more than a lucky few & why wouldn't Aussie products be as good, I believe they would be a heap better.

It would be nice if all Aussie products were better than the imported variety, and many are. In general, the things we do well, we do very well, but there are many things we will never make well, for a variety of reasons but mostly due to economies of scale.

Hyundai, for example, who build a car every 8 seconds, can spend ten times as much per product on R & D as their Australian competitor, but the R & D cost per unit of output may be only one tenth. The end result is a product which is superior and cheaper.

Instead of diverting scarce resources to compete with them, it makes more sense to use our resources to do what we do best, and just buy our cars from them.

As a result of subsidies, tariffs and "industry assistance", everybody in Australia (including government agencies who have to "buy local" using your taxes) has to pay more for their car than they otherwise would.

A subsidy to one industry = a tax on every other.

Another example of how 'normal' retail shops are suffering through their own ignorance (that sounds harsh as I know that many are doing it tough, but the word 'ignorance' just sums it all up).

I bought some shoes recently - from a 'local' shoe shop as I can't stand bad-fitting shoes. The discussion turned to the economy and the owner told me that about 50% of shoppers that get fitted for shoes in her shop, leave without buying - some not even enquiring about availability or price. The fact that many come in with a pre-conceived brand & style to try on - then leave straight after finding the right fit has made her realise that these shoppers are simply fitting shoes to order online!

I feel for her as she is a hard worker, but in all honesty she is getting reamed by a large amount of what could be 'potential' customers and thereofre has 2 options;

1. Do nothing & let it continue whilst her profits drop, employees lose their job and another shop slowly dies a painful death whilst whining about 'online retailers' that are ruining the industry (that sell the exact same shoe but more efficiently and at much less cost btw)...

2. Do it better! Get wholesalers on board & reduce price even if it means the wholesaler is consigning larger amounts of goods to gain discounts & advertise online whilst offering 'local' service. Push the 'Local' factor whilst advertising online. Regularly hold 'sales' to move certain items. + many more ideas that I can't think of...

I've been self-employed for over half of my life now and one thing I've learnt - You are responsible for your own business therefore if you fall behind - you're making a "rod for your own back". There's no such thing as a 'fixed' business model, it needs to be 'dynamic' (ie; ever-changing to suit the environment) and move with both technology & demand.

[Edit] Btw Paul - I've bought from your company indirectly (via an 'unnamed' auction site) and happy with being able to find a 'bargain' whilst also having the ability to receive support & advice directly from the supplier.

AUS1111 said...

As a result of subsidies, tariffs and "industry assistance", everybody in Australia (including government agencies who have to "buy local" using your taxes) has to pay more for their car than they otherwise would.

Funny you mention that as a couple of weeks ago I noticed a government department vehicle & it was a new Hyundai or Kia SUV

I thought, "that's weird, looks like the government has also given up"
Trying to stick to their budget no doubt.

AUS1111 said...

Paul Kelf said...
It would create jobs for more than a lucky few & why wouldn't Aussie products be as good, I believe they would be a heap better.

It would be nice if all Aussie products were better than the imported variety, and many are. In general, the things we do well, we do very well, but there are many things we will never make well, for a variety of reasons but mostly due to economies of scale.

Hyundai, for example, who build a car every 8 seconds, can spend ten times as much per product on R & D as their Australian competitor, but the R & D cost per unit of output may be only one tenth. The end result is a product which is superior and cheaper.

Instead of diverting scarce resources to compete with them, it makes more sense to use our resources to do what we do best, and just buy our cars from them.

As a result of subsidies, tariffs and "industry assistance", everybody in Australia (including government agencies who have to "buy local" using your taxes) has to pay more for their car than they otherwise would.

A subsidy to one industry = a tax on every other.

Trouble is, what is it that we do better? We really do run the risk of becoming a banana republic with mining (no not literally bananas, but a single industry).

With the AUD so high, probably because of mining, it makes so many things uncompetitive.

I would prefer to subsidize all industries to try and keep some diversity in industry in Australia. Not everyone wants to go work on a mine site.

Even if Australia makes Ford or Holden cars, designed in the USA or elsewhere, and not locally designed, I would prefer that to just importing them. It seems our designers here are good anyway, but it must be impossible to even do that locally without some sort of subsidy.

With Brazil exporting iron ore, and other countries in South America, can we afford to place all our eggs in the mining basket?

AUS1111 said...

FormulaNova said...


I would prefer to subsidize all industries to try and keep some diversity in industry in Australia. Not everyone wants to go work on a mine site.

Yep, I don't think anyone would disagree that it would be nice to have a broad based economy, making world class things over a wide range of industries, just as it would be great to have the world's best school system, a fast train line up the East Coast, ever decreasing emissions, high wages and long holidays for all, not cut any trees down and low taxes (!!)but the real question is; at what cost?

We can't have all of things we want so what are we not going to have? What are we giving up in order to manufacture something at which we have a clear disadvantage? Couldn't we use the resources for something at which have an advantage?

I am not sure we do have an advantage with anything. Our AUD keeps exports expensive, and our labour costs are high.

We may think we are a smart country, but we are no smarter than anyone else.

Saying that we should use our resources for something we have an advantage at is one thing, but I think you would be hard pressed to find that something.

So, if mining is what is keeping our AUD high, and it only directly employs 1.9% (of the workforce, not the population), what else are the remaining 98.1% of the workforce going to do?

Hey Zac Attack, Before you start attacking subsidy's to Australian manufacturing you might want to seek out some facts. An article in the Age a few weeks ago went through the government support to the Australian car industry and ran some figures.
We are the most open, competitive market in the world, lowest tariffs and one of the lowest levels of government assistance.
Every other car making country supports its industry, most way more than Australia. You may be surprised that BMW receive way higher support from German Governments than any of out manufacturers
When you factor how many people work in the industry and tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers, direct taxation more than offsets the cost to the taxpayer from subsidy's. Then factor in indirect taxations, the industry support / stimulation to non directly related businesses and he estimated the return to the Australian taxpayer from the direct subsidy's to the car industry was 600%.That doesn't sound like pissing money against the wall to me.
Then there are all the benefits of having people working rather than on the dole, having hi tech skills in this country Blah, blah bla I could go on for ever.

The bottom line is that it is not a level playing field, we are one of the most unprotected markets in the world and at the moment with a stupidly high dollar we have a perfect storm for Australian manufacturing.

Australians should do more to support local manufacturing rather than believing the right wing economically rationalist crap that the media likes to ram down out gobs.
Buy Australian when you can, while you can.
End of rant!!!!

So to get back closer to subject, when thinking about a new board don't forget we have some custom makers here, Nude , Stone, OES, Cheeky Monkey and Manta/ NSX ( have I forgotten anybody??) Sure customs are not for everybody and production brands offer a huge variety of great product, but don't dismiss getting a custom from one of the local guy's without giving it some thought.
I am about to get another ( when I work up the balls to tell my wife!!!)

Totally ignoring whether something is manufactured here or not here is a very simplified version of retail and buying locally vs buying online and overseas.


Picture 5 people on the beach with $10 worth of $2 coins which they are passing around between each other.

That passing around is called trade, and whilst they are passing around that money that is called employment.

Now picture the same group of people passing around but occasionally someone throws a $2 coin out to sea (ie buying something offshore), when the $10 is gone from the group pool someone has to go (ie they are now unemployed).

Keep throwing coins peoples.

Whether you like it or not, No matter how you justify it to yourselves to save yourself some brass by buying your stuff overseas you are doing it to the determent of all Australians.

Small business and retail employ a huge amount of Australians, without those people employed and their money circulating you won't have your $2 to throw overseas.

Sooner or later something has to be done

mr love said...

Every other car making country supports its industry, most way more than Australia. You may be surprised that BMW receive way higher support from German Governments than any of out manufacturers
When you factor how many people work in the industry and tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers, direct taxation more than offsets the cost to the taxpayer from subsidy's. Then factor in indirect taxations, the industry support / stimulation to non directly related businesses and he estimated the return to the Australian taxpayer from the direct subsidy's to the car industry was 600%.

If other countries wish to heavily subsidise their industries, then rather than try to out-subsidise to compete with them, surely the sensible thing to do is just buy their stuff!

and,

If the return on taxpayer support for our uncompetitive car industry is really 600%, imagine the return we would get from supporting our more competitive industries - 1000%?

Few people would question the sense in some level of support for local manufacturing, but the question, as always, is how much?

How much more are we prepared to pay for cars in order to support Australian manufacturing, for how long and to what end?

At some level the burden is too heavy, and no more our precious resources should be diverted into unviable industries.

As a stable, prosperous, english speaking democracy located near Asia and with very low levels of corruption, Australia is an extremely attractive place for foreigners to invest. We are at massive advantage over other countries in many areas including agriculture, tourism, financial servies and education.

AUS1111 said...
Australia is an extremely attractive place for foreigners to invest. We are at massive advantage over other countries in many areas including agriculture, tourism, financial servies and education.

I still don't know what foreigners will invest in other than our land & resources, stuff we can't ever get back.
Agriculture is buggered & needs propping up by the government, hard to compete with the cheap chemical filled & filthy imported food.
Tourism in Australia is doomed when you can get flights to Asia for a couple of hundred dollars, that's less than a night in a Perth hotel.
Banks are probably the only thing making money and that should be stopped it's almost criminal the way they operate.
Education, yes we are getting a lot of investment there from OS students that then bugger off back to Asia while Aussies can't get a spot in a Uni.

Everyone keeps talking about what we can do better & competatively but have yet to tell us.

I need some wind

FormulaNova said...

AUS1111 said...

If other countries wish to heavily subsidise their industries, then rather than try to out-subsidise to compete with them, surely the sensible thing to do is just buy their stuff!

It's not just about 'buying stuff', its about employment.

Just buying stuff from overseas is far from a sensible thing to do. These countries subsidise these industries because of the same reason we should, to keep people employed. If there was no advantage in doing it, they wouldn't be doing it either.

Do you want to keep people employed here or in another country?

Most of the things I buy online from OS are not manufactured where I but them from. I buy clothes in the UK, not made there. A wettie, not made in the UK. Runners from the US, not made there.

I certainly appreciate your point about wanting a healthy Australian economy, buy we can't be lazy, we have to adapt. I would have bought a wettie here if I could get a good online shop. After a couple of tries, I came across a UK site which was excellent, very user friendly, excellent sizing advice and cheap. If we can't get with the new retail environment (one where we are moving at a rate of knots to online) then we won't survive. However, the smart businesses will thrive. I have seen the emergence of a few players on the online rag trade space in Australia (The Iconic) who don't seem to have a bricks and mortar presence.

I also get very angry at the price gouging we have had to cop in Australia from fat, lazy retailers who could get away with it. I buy ASICS runners from the US for $110 delivered which I have to pay $240 retail for here. I still haven't heard a very good reason as to why.

The internet has made the world our shopping strip and a computer screen is where we window shop now.

What innovation have you seen in retail in Australia lately? What are retailers doing differently? How are they adapting? I walk after shops who seriously don't seem to really care.

You know the adage - adapt or die. Things change, get with the change or disappear.

Certain jobs might disappear from our economy, but others will replace them and the smart people will be in those jobs.

A speech my boss did last year to the National Press Club on the importance of Australian manufacturing. Last word from me on the subject.
Now how do I tell my wife about the new custom board!!!

media.gm.com/content/Pages/news/au/en/2011/Dec/1207_AustralianEconomyNeedsTheCarIndustry/_jcr_content/rightpar/sectioncontainer/par/download_0/file.res/111207%20Press%20Club%20Address.pdf

^^^ Or do what I do - sulk until the 'minister for war & finance' concedes! This way she gets a happy hubby & also gets me out of her way whilst I play with my new toy(s).

"I would like to see at least 100% import duty on everything".

Doesn't work. Witness the Sunshine Harvester example. Sunshine invented the combine harvester. In the name of jobs, we protected them with heavy tarrifs against imports. End result, Sunshine were churning out expensive rubish that no farmer wanted buy, but had too, because of the tarrif.

A lot of public money ended up being wasted on commercial welfare and Sunshine still went bust. A lot of opportunity wasted, over a long period of time.

It's hard and I don't have the answers. Small business has the answers.

Let's hope our innovative small business's aren't strangled by red tape and Fair Work Australia (oxymoron). There's a topic for Heavy Weather.