ka43 said..
As a longtime user of KA72 and an IT dumb arse I think if you excluded the use of KA72 to upload data etc to GPSTC you would alienate a lot of sailors!!! Not everyone is into analysing data, tracks etc. For most its a case of get home, plug in your device and let KA72 do the rest, simples!!
It would be another nail in the coffin, people are getting sick of the elitist mentality that has been creeping in here for quite awhile.
GPSTC was created so everyone could be included.
Yeah I know Im probably not moving with the times but as James said "we are not playing for sheep stations".
I understand where you guys are coming from but look at the bigger picture.
Cheers.

I'd be the same. Having a computer from the last century and an internet to match means Ka72 or Realspeed are my options. I don't post to GPS3 anymore, just too slow or the post fails.
Gave up with Speedreader and Results, stuck with Ka72. Easy to see my history and the Kingdom stuff is a bit of fun.
Probably wouldn't post that much if it wasn't available and just revert to the Garmin for my records.

ive never had a issue with ka 72 until the 5 of dec last year. 72 wont even open/upload my files.
yes im using a canmore gps all i can afford. some of us do this sailing on a shoe string budget.
ka72 cant or wont help with this issue. speedreader my computer needs a coffee update lol

I read all posts and James Farley and Dezza gets a thumbs up and also Decrepit's last post. TBwonder gets red thumbs, if we still had them. Although, I agree that accuracy is everything(at the competitive end), at least KA72 gives everyone access to files.

Yes it's good to raise/discuss the issue, I wasn't aware of that but will keep an eye on it from now on. I gave you a green thumb as well Maybe if any other examples are found they can be reported here. The idea of removing ka72 from posting takes away a lot of the gpstc sport and fun. Results without a back up file available or at least of pic of the tracks arent as interesting to read as there's no info on how the results were achieved. I'd say at lake George most of us spent more time viewing tracks on ka72 than the posts on gpstc

ka43 said..
As a longtime user of KA72 and an IT dumb arse I think if you excluded the use of KA72 to upload data etc to GPSTC you would alienate a lot of sailors!!! Not everyone is into analysing data, tracks etc. For most its a case of get home, plug in your device and let KA72 do the rest, simples!!
It would be another nail in the coffin, people are getting sick of the elitist mentality that has been creeping in here for quite awhile.
GPSTC was created so everyone could be included.
Yeah I know Im probably not moving with the times but as James said "we are not playing for sheep stations".
I understand where you guys are coming from but look at the bigger picture.
Cheers.

Agree!

Well said, great work Dylan thanks for all you do.

Dezza said..
Yes it's good to raise/discuss the issue, I wasn't aware of that but will keep an eye on it from now on. I gave you a green thumb as well Maybe if any other examples are found they can be reported here. The idea of removing ka72 from posting takes away a lot of the gpstc sport and fun. Results without a back up file available or at least of pic of the tracks arent as interesting to read as there's no info on how the results were achieved. I'd say at lake George most of us spent more time viewing tracks on ka72 than the posts on gpstc

Yes I find posts that don't have tracks or even the gear used annoying. In bored moments I like to look at tracks.
I'll get in first before the avalanche... I try to neutralise these type of posts with my 'epic' writeups for bored people to read.

I use more than one device because I fear getting a PB and then having a device fail. Mostly I've used a GW60 on the water and a MiniMotion for uploading through KA72. The difference has usually been about +-0.05. I suppose this backup has the advantage of also highlighting unexpected spikes, not that I've ever seen one.

choco said..
The philosophy of the Challenge:Inclusiveness: That everyone in the windsurfing community be included from fun and social sailors, to the serious including Pro's. Participation: That it is important to participate, to be involved, to develop skills and improve Personal Best Times. Be involved all season, not just summer. Fun: That most importantly we have fun, and however you get it, from stacking it on a 15 knot run, to doing 40+ knots, or just having a beer/bourbon/wine with your friends after a session. Building relationships: That we connect people with the same passion, meet new people, create connections intra, inter-state, international and generally just build relationships and grow our community.More generally, Windsurfing at speed is also about getting fit, developing skills and technique, we can all learn how to windsurf better, and some elements of GPS mean you want to sail more in order to give yourself a better chance of performing better, so more time on water has multiple benefits.

That will need to be changed

Yeah.... As someone who got chucked out of the GPSTC because I would not update my GPS, I find it hilarious that the first sentence in the philosophy section is inclusiveness.

And I find it amusing that KA72 is completely independant of the GPSTC, and probably exists for those preferring something other than GPSTC, yet GPSTC users think KA72 should be adjusted to suit the GPSTC. Maybe GPSTC could add some of the excellent features KA72 has and then GPSTC users would not need to use KA72?

Or play cricket with an oversized bat.

vosadrian said..
1. only there was nothing available I could update to that did not fail in short order or was just unobtainium.

2. As it stands now, can you get on water feedback in an accepted device without running 2 devices?

3. And whatever happened to the GPSTC changes that were supposed to be done a few years ago?

4. "We cater OK for those breaking speed records on a windsurfer with latest equipment as long as you use external software to process your files and manually enter the data since our website is too old to do anything smart with the data. But we are really good at banning you from the website if you corrupt our database by using an unapproved device that has been used in the past for thousands of entries still in the database"

Short responses in turn as follows:

1. The Mini Motion was and is still available for around $160

2. Correct for those who no longer have operating Locosys devices or LDC Motion

3. You'll have to ask the owner of the App why he has not made the changes requested. I suspect the answer is that he either does not have the inclination or time to do so. It

4. The GPSTC relies on use of approved devices and self regulation and monitoring to protect the integrity of the database. Posting bogus results in GPSTC is a bit like cheating at golf - what's the point. Those who use a Garmin device for on water feedback and an approved device for posting know how unreliable the Garmin devices can be.

vosadrian said..

John340 said..

vosadrian said..
1. only there was nothing available I could update to that did not fail in short order or was just unobtainium.

2. As it stands now, can you get on water feedback in an accepted device without running 2 devices?

3. And whatever happened to the GPSTC changes that were supposed to be done a few years ago?

4. "We cater OK for those breaking speed records on a windsurfer with latest equipment as long as you use external software to process your files and manually enter the data since our website is too old to do anything smart with the data. But we are really good at banning you from the website if you corrupt our database by using an unapproved device that has been used in the past for thousands of entries still in the database"

Short responses in turn as follows:

1. The Mini Motion was and is still available for around $160

2. Correct for those who no longer have operating Locosys devices or LDC Motion

3. You'll have to ask the owner of the App why he has not made the changes requested. I suspect the answer is that he either does not have the inclination or time to do so. It

4. The GPSTC relies on use of approved devices and self regulation and monitoring to protect the integrity of the database. Posting bogus results in GPSTC is a bit like cheating at golf - what's the point. Those who use a Garmin device for on water feedback and an approved device for posting know how unreliable the Garmin devices can be.

My comments were in regard to the inclusiveness claim. If anything the GPSTC is exclusive. I don't think your answer to 1 has always been the case, and in regard to 4, the poll instigated on this forum found that most people did not agree with the GPSTC on how they handle GPS devices.

Means little to me though. I used to enjoy the GPSTC. I have not been part of it for over 2 years now. Managed to have one of most enjoyable sailing seasons early this year without it. I still use KA72.

GPSTC was used by 500 sailors last year.

I'm glad you are enjoying your sailing and hope you continue to do so.

inclusiveness is not the same as democracy

I miss the GPSTC for the banter I could have in the comments with my team mates. I miss the motivation to go out with mates from my team for a good team result. I miss the profile page that had my data. My gripe at the time was that I did not change anything in the way I did what I did for many years on the GPSTC, but the GPSTC changed the rules and ruled me out. I could have purchased a watch that had the worst reviews of any electronic device I have ever seen because it usually broke within a year of use. I could have purchased a newer device that had stopped production of display devices due to most of them failing... but a fix to that was to remove the display and nobody could get them anyway due to limited production. Meanwhile I had a device that worked perfectly for me and was reliable over decades and had already significant data in the GPSTC database. I am no speed gun that was breaking records and only occasionally contributed to a team result and mostly for distance. I did not need the hassle to have a special unreliable device that would not give on water feedback unless I carried a second device and then had to manage two devices.

I was not the only one. A simple fix was available. The GPSTC already had a field to check that indicated if the data was positional or doppler which was supposed to indicate whether the speed data was "more accurate". This could be repurposed to indicate if the device was approved and therefore "more accurate" or unapproved. A web developer could have changed the calculations of team scores to remove the unapproved devices from calculated parameters that could be inaccurate (2S really is the only effected), and the team scores would not be effected by this "inaccuracy". Others viewing the data could see the data was from an unapproved device (without D near the data). I can't see how the accuracy nuts could be upset with this solution. Instead this was not done, and people are still posting inaccurate data via KA72 and other methods... so the GPSTC still has inaccurate data, but has been exclusive by telling sailors they need a highly limited range of poor quality devices in order to be part of it.

Someone on this forum started an online poll to see if the above solution was acceptable to the wider windsurfing community and the OVERWHELMING majority thought it was a great solution. I was shocked how little support there was for the GPSTC existing rules. Representatives from the GPSTC said that this would be implemented when it could be done, but in the meantime things would continue as is. That was several years ago and nothing has happened... except for the occasional mention of it by someone here that I am aware of. Perhaps the resources required to do the change are beyond the GPSTC... or perhaps they would rather just forget about it and remain exclusive. Perhaps they don't have the resources to change the inaccurate philosophy in the about section of the WEB page?

So now we have a situation that started this thread where data from approved devices is still getting errors into the GPSTC. This highlights the real problem to me with data accuracy. Regardless of the device, errors can get in. It is possible even with a track based device to look at the results and identify if an error is likely. 5X10S average even when there are errors will be much closer to actual as errors average out. For my sailing style and location I would always get a 2S that was 1-3knots above my 5X10S. If it was higher that that, I knew there was an error. I could inspect that data on a speed trace, and speeds should be smooth. If there was a spike this would confirm the data had an error and could be removed. To an even mildly experienced eye, just a glance at the numbers on GPSTC will indicate if an error is likely and could be investigated further.

At this point I don't expect anything to change. But I have nothing to lose by banging this drum, so I will continue banging when the opportunity arises.

Ive got a few of the latest mini motions just arrived if you'd like one Adrian, (or anyone else wanting to join a gpstc team, pm me), it would be great to see you get back into it for the banter and motivation with your team mates that you enjoyed before