sprayblaze said..
The boards look sick, can't wait to try the new quad 9. Why only big sizes in haiku package?- maybe not supposed to be jumped as much...
As for the sails I am a bit skeptical- less monofilm means less reactivity, less skin tension. Apart from the mast- monofilm is the motor of the sail. No matter how durable expensive and sophisticated are laminates, nothing beats monofilm. Otherwise race sails would have abandoned monofilm long time ago for good. The 24/25 wave sails were a good compromise between monofilm/scrim surface area and proper positioning of monofilm with a patch above the longest batten- a very important place for the behavior of the sail. Lets see what the reviews will say. Cheers

What do you mean by "reactivity" ? Power up? Depower? It's a bit vague id like to understand your description more? what characteristic do you think monofilm is giving you that laminates don't? Do you have examples or can you describe the feeling of laminates sails relative to film?

What about the feeling of the Goya custom quad9 in Haiku edition, in "real" world choppy sections, before the encounter with a decent wave ? They describe it as stiffer and with a more "crispy" ride and if I am not mistaken it will bear a carbon bottom ? If anyone has already tried one, it would be good to have an Idea.

Nicko29 said..

sheddweller said..

sprayblaze said..
The boards look sick, can't wait to try the new quad 9. Why only big sizes in haiku package?- maybe not supposed to be jumped as much...
As for the sails I am a bit skeptical- less monofilm means less reactivity, less skin tension. Apart from the mast- monofilm is the motor of the sail. No matter how durable expensive and sophisticated are laminates, nothing beats monofilm. Otherwise race sails would have abandoned monofilm long time ago for good. The 24/25 wave sails were a good compromise between monofilm/scrim surface area and proper positioning of monofilm with a patch above the longest batten- a very important place for the behavior of the sail. Lets see what the reviews will say. Cheers

What do you mean by "reactivity" ? Power up? Depower? It's a bit vague id like to understand your description more? what characteristic do you think monofilm is giving you that laminates don't? Do you have examples or can you describe the feeling of laminates sails relative to film?

Monofilm is thicker than the 2 thin films of the laminates, therefore it is stiffer. When pressurised it stretches less then is more reactive to gust.
Carbon laminate is even stiffer if the connection (bonding and or sewing) is well made, and only in the direction of the carbon strippes.
I guess this makes it difficult to use properly in slalom sails, that's why Monofilm is still used.
I guess if a sail designer had unlimited time and budget to design the best slalom or speed sail, he would end up using carbon laminate, or even more 3di. But FEA and CFD are expensive and difficult to use properly on a windsurf sail.

well, i was really looking for actual felt differences, what you have given me is an explanation of why you think it does something, not that it actyually does do that thing or a description of how that thing manifests
so what does "stretches less" and "more reactive to gusts" mean in practice? so really we are talking about wave sails, so the stiffer more reactive sails in film ( if true)- what happens in a gust? do they accelerate quicker? power up quicker? feel more powerful? less powerful? go faster? go slower?
is there any video you could point to where we could see this effect? are there any sails that are noteably more reactive or less reactive that you could point to?

Listen carefully to what JD says at the end - monofilm sails were as crisp and strecthless as it gets although lasting 5 minutes. This why there is no substitute for monofilm in race sails for the time being. Reading behind the lines means that carbon laminates maybe lighter and bells and whistles in the beginning, but over time strecth. If you buy a 150 cm wave sails after using it 20 times it ends up 154 cm which might not be bothering fore some people despite spending a fortune.

Nicko29 said..

sheddweller said..

sprayblaze said..
The boards look sick, can't wait to try the new quad 9. Why only big sizes in haiku package?- maybe not supposed to be jumped as much...
As for the sails I am a bit skeptical- less monofilm means less reactivity, less skin tension. Apart from the mast- monofilm is the motor of the sail. No matter how durable expensive and sophisticated are laminates, nothing beats monofilm. Otherwise race sails would have abandoned monofilm long time ago for good. The 24/25 wave sails were a good compromise between monofilm/scrim surface area and proper positioning of monofilm with a patch above the longest batten- a very important place for the behavior of the sail. Lets see what the reviews will say. Cheers

What do you mean by "reactivity" ? Power up? Depower? It's a bit vague id like to understand your description more? what characteristic do you think monofilm is giving you that laminates don't? Do you have examples or can you describe the feeling of laminates sails relative to film?

Monofilm is thicker than the 2 thin films of the laminates, therefore it is stiffer. When pressurised it stretches less then is more reactive to gust.
Carbon laminate is even stiffer if the connection (bonding and or sewing) is well made, and only in the direction of the carbon strippes.
I guess this makes it difficult to use properly in slalom sails, that's why Monofilm is still used.
I guess if a sail designer had unlimited time and budget to design the best slalom or speed sail, he would end up using carbon laminate, or even more 3di. But FEA and CFD are expensive and difficult to use properly on a windsurf sail.

Isn't that the point. carbon sails are stiffer in the load directions and allow twist in other directions.. I suspect this is part of the issue north are having.. I mean we are talking single monofilm v 2 layers of monofilm with an interlayer.. the interlayer takes the loads so the external monofilm layers can be thinner providing a lighter stronger matrix.

There is also a lot of marketing going on... the laminate material comes from the factory not the sail designer.. the sail designer figures out if he/she wants to use the material or not.. this is why both simmer and Goya seem to be using the same carbon laminates in their sails from the same factory. It's how the material is implemented that provides differences between sail designs.. also there are other carbon laminate materials out there with different interlayer designs. stiffness in multiple directions.. etc. just it seems too expensive at this time.

Severne who really started this whole thing with their pro models had carbon fibres running in multiple directions and over time have transitioned to similar laminates as simmer and goya. it;s from a different factory and is not the exact same cloth from what I understand. could be wrong..

My 2022-23 carbon Blade pros are lasting really well. I wave sail and get beat up like most in WA who hang out in waves. I'd normally be buying some new sails after 3 seasons but don't need to with this quiver. I'm perfectly happy to do the 2026-27 season and see what they look like.

As for the feel etc... I'll be dropping a sail with my next lot ie 1 less sail from 4.5-5.7. The extended range that some are dubious about undeniably exists in my opinion, might go 4.7, 5.3, 5.7 unless Ben comes up with more genius stuff. I reckon the top end control is where the gains mostly are followed by being extremely tunable. For me there's far less thinking about what to rig on any given day, I like being powered so I am probably sailing bigger than I used to.

There's a case for using std sails in lesser used or smaller sizes... maybe.... but for one, I haven't found a downside to the Severne carbon wave sails after 3 pretty solid seasons out west.

sheddweller said..

sprayblaze said..
Reading behind the lines means that carbon laminates maybe lighter and bells and whistles in the beginning, but over time strecth. If you buy a 150 cm wave sails after using it 20 times it ends up 154 cm which might not be bothering fore some people despite spending a fortune.

Does this amount of stretch happen? Have you observed it?

To add... after 3 seasons my sails are still rigging on the same numbers. The only thing I've replaced on my rigs is rope. If there's any stretching, it's pretty negligible.

Nicko29 said..
Thanks for your long report Jens. As a pyramid 86 (orange) owner, I can totally relate to what you described!
I find kind of funny/surprising that they never compare the polakow to the goya thruster, since the 2 shapes share many similarities : thruster, pointy nose, swallow tail, fast rocker, fins. Even the 92/93 have almost identical width...

I guess the polakow is still more surf and rad, whereas the thruster 5 is a touch easier and better at planning /jumping. But would like to hear it from them

That's what I was thinking too Nick. KT doesn't tend to compare often between the Goya and Quatro alternatives. Probably bad for business. We'll just have to wait for the punters who buy them to tell us.

Not sure you can rely on pictures from the websites to compare outlines... They could be only illustration not respecting the true shapes.
Also not sure if Jason Polakow ever rode that jp radical thruster quad. I reckon it's pretty notorious that he always rode quatro custom...
But maybe the shapes of his custom back then infused in the shaping of werner gnigler for the radical thruster quad.

As Nicko said, Polakow never rode JP/Gnigler boards, always Quatro customs. As Keith mentioned in the video "... we're working together since 20 years...".

Exactly, surely Polakow influenced the shape of that board. Just found a photo with the size of the 85, it's 224.7x57.3 cm. Love the accuracy with those numbers lol. That's quite a bit shorter but that's probably due to the tail. The 2016-2018 83 (closest size) had a 56.5 cm width, so not that far off.

I had the 22' Banzai 5.5 but never really liked it, it felt heavy, wobbly, unstable and poor to control in gusty winds (on the 400 100 mast), it only felt ok when trimmed flat, but then my 5.0 delivered the same power with much better handling and control. So i changed to a 24' Banzai Max 5.5 which felt much better and more stable.
I wonder how the new Banzai 12 5.6 would compare to the Max 5.5 or Banazi 22'/24' 5.5 in terms of stability with all these design changes.

CB1 said..
Personally I like how Goya differentiated the boards in the line-up this year. Takes a little analysis paralysis out of the equation. For any of you Goya/Quatro aficionados, where do you think the Quatro Power 4 Freewave Thruster sits when compared to the One and new Thruster 5? I "think" I read (on the Goya site in the comments) that the Power 4 was a little more wave oriented than the One. And this year it seems the One and Thruster 5 have the same bottom shape, but the Thruster 5 was a more wave oriented outline and rails. If it helps, strictly trying to compare the 105L'ish in all the mentioned models. Thanks!

I prefer thrusters over quads (I find thrusters a bit better for dealing with gnarly conditions, but not sure whether that is me or them...) , so I am a little disappointed that the latest Goya thruster has been 'detuned' (like what Porsche apparently did to the Boxster vs 911??) to take it away from the quad and put it nearer the One. However likely it is still Pyramid > Goya Thruster (or Custom 3 as I will still call them) > Power > One, regarding 'wavyness'.

stehsegler said..
I look in the mirror and then look at their team riders developing and testing their wave gear and it's clear to me I'm not their target market. Most of their wave boards are developed and tested by guys riding boards between 75 and 88 litres. Last time I rode anything sub 95 liters was in my early 20s.

I had their 118 custom quad a few years ago but it was clearly designed as a float and ride board. Great for pure wave riding but not much else. It felt like the board was directed at lighter sailors looking for a super floaty ride.

Clearly their gear works extremely well for the target audience. I am just not game to drop nearly $5k on a board without testing it given my past experience.

I hear you, i had the same thoughts in the past, but back then at my first testride with the ' 22 Quad 104 i found that that this board works ok for my 95 kg as an allround oneboard solution.
Then i ordered a '24 Quad 104 which is a much more compact shape than the '22 modell and i have to say that this board is a perfect match for us heavier riders. Early planing, control, turning, i find no flaws in this board.
With the new '26 models the shapes got even more compact, i assume that'll make them (the bigger sizes) even more suitable for us heavy weights.