Forums > Wing Foiling General

Does bagging matter?

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Created by patronus > 9 months ago, 28 Jan 2023
patronus
319 posts
28 Jan 2023 5:38PM
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My Ensis Score 6.2m and 5m F-One Strike V2 have both bagged out. Kinda annoying but don't think it's affected performance much. Maybe an extra pump to get going, and a bit of flapping in strong winds when should be changing down anyway, so it looks worse than it is. Anyone else think this or finding it matters.

King Crash
NSW, 292 posts
28 Jan 2023 8:57PM
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patronus said..
My Ensis Score 6.2m and 5m F-One Strike V2 have both bagged out. Kinda annoying but don't think it's affected performance much. Maybe an extra pump to get going, and a bit of flapping in strong winds when should be changing down anyway, so it looks worse than it is. Anyone else think this or finding it matters.


Bottom end and top end will have their useable range reduced. If you care enough, you can take up on the leach line or do a take up in the leach. Honestly. deal with it, if it gets really bad just get It recut. Otherwise you'll be okay

mindhoc
NSW, 94 posts
28 Jan 2023 10:35PM
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Only if it is Tea related
(sorry , I couldn't resist )

DWF
553 posts
28 Jan 2023 8:41PM
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If you use a harness, you will notice performance loss more than someone who doesn't.

The draft moves more throughout the wind range. Back hand pressure increases.

Driks
105 posts
28 Jan 2023 10:55PM
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Hey!
But there isn't a solution....!? I asked an sail maker and he said... No! If u cut something out and Sew it together again the aerodynamic of the wing would be destroyed!? Or do u guys got another idea?
Greetings

sehraha
13 posts
28 Jan 2023 11:19PM
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Bagging out in kiteboarding kites is a common issue, and it can be caused by a number of factors such as improper storage, leaving the kite inflated for long periods of time, or excessive use. While it may not affect performance significantly, it can lead to uneven wear and tear on the kite and potentially shorten its lifespan. To prevent bagging out, make sure to properly deflate and store your kites when not in use, and avoid leaving them inflated for prolonged periods of time. Additionally, it's important to make sure you are using the correct size kite for the wind conditions and to avoid over-inflating the kite when pumping it up.

robbo1111
NSW, 618 posts
29 Jan 2023 10:58AM
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My much used PPC 3'8 is bagged out but still pumps up nicely onto foil. Conversely my 3m Ozone V2 wing is a bagged out piece of junk that feels reminiscent of the original Naish wing, no real power anymore and not enjoyable to use.

Driks
105 posts
29 Jan 2023 3:40PM
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So the tightness or usability in lifespan of a wing Varied from brand to brand. Any winners in this game.

Poida
WA, 1914 posts
29 Jan 2023 5:46PM
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I'm well into the third season on duotone units and no issues i can tell

Driks
105 posts
29 Jan 2023 7:58PM
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Ah ok. What u think about the slick sls?

MProject04
427 posts
29 Jan 2023 10:24PM
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Can someone define or explain bagging? And how can you see or measure it?

Is it canopy-only related? Strut / LE?

King Crash
NSW, 292 posts
30 Jan 2023 7:47AM
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MProject04 said..
Can someone define or explain bagging? And how can you see or measure it?

Is it canopy-only related? Strut / LE?


We're yet to see Aluula and other exotic leading edges age over enough time. We'll continue to watch this space. Anything Dacron will stretch - this is your leading edge. Then the spinnaker cloth itself with stretch.
I cut the cloth out of my G1 wasp 4 and 5m. Took the 4 out in decent breeze and was shocked at how spongy the leading edge was after using PPC wings for 6 months.
Everything will stretch still as brands are still working longevity. Recuts will keep you going, but you're better off selling used wings and getting newer ones. You'd be surprised at how quicker you develop on good gear - wings, boards and foils included. Im still adamant that Norths should of made the mode canopy of light 3Di raw, and with Ocean Rodeo looking to bring their version later this year. I'd keep an eye on this, albeit, it won't be cheap.
Wings don't last as long as kites plain and simple.

mikesids
131 posts
30 Jan 2023 7:05AM
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Does bagging matter? Probably not so much unless you are fussy or don't like the canopy fluttering. I recently had a great session on my two year old wing that has had a lot of hooked in use - perfectly powered , balanced between my hands and towed me upwind just fine so I could then ride swell. I otherwise don't ask a lot of it - it just has to get me upwind nicely and then flag out stably without rocking around.
If you are pushing hard upwind hooked in you might notice some fluttering or draft instability as the wings ages , or maybe slightly reduced upwind angles. Otherwise I think we just have to accept that wings are what they are - relatively crude but effective propulsion devices which use kitesurfing technology ( Dacron, TPU bladders , ripstop canopy material). It totally makes sense if you are a kiting company that is moving into wings to use materials that you are very experienced with, it's what you and I would also do if we were in the same position. But it doesn't mean that these materials are well optimised for the demands of winging. I see they are are trying different panel layouts with radial and horizontal seaming to try and better distribute the canopy loads - will be interesting to see if this really helps if the same old materials are still used. Replacing your most used wings periodically is a common response if the bagging bothers you. There's no quantitative data at all around bagging and performance effects, and certainly the wings don't stop working all of a sudden.
At the end of the day , these are depreciating assets. I've seen comments about wings bagging out and warranty claims etc which to my mind is just ridiculous given that everyone knows what they are made of and what the compromises are to keep costs down. They are what they are. Higher tech materials will solve the bagging problem for sure , but the question is - would you be happy spending $4k for a wing?
I think the main issue at play here is in the rider's head - how does your two year old , stretched out wing make you feel ( considering it still works) , is there a sense of pride of ownership now when you look at what everyone else at your local spot is using ? Or does knowing that this year's model is better make you love your existing gear a little less? My two cents.

rgmacca
389 posts
30 Jan 2023 7:53AM
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I've got bagged out wings and used to stress about loss of performance.
now I realise that you can just keep throwing money at new kit to keep up to date or use old kit and accept a lack in performance. im now just dealing with it and rig big if needed.

Gorgo
VIC, 4899 posts
1 Feb 2023 12:00PM
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I have two identical wings, one with 160 hours on it, the other with 3 hours. The 160 hour wing was badly damaged in the surf (badly torn strut and exploded bladder). I bought a new one because it was super cheap on Black Friday sale, then repaired the damaged wing because it was a fun project.

The 160 hour wing has the usual floppiness in the canopy of a bagged out wing. The 3 hour wing is taut and tidy. The bagged out wing feels a little slack when under powered. It feels fine when powered up. The top end range is fantastic, but that might have more to do with the design of the wing.

When I pulled apart the old wing there were all sorts of stretch and stress marks on the strut bladder aligning with the handle positions and the leading edge and the bit that exploded.

I ran a ruler over the panels of both wings and they are identical. No more than 2mm difference in the width and length of the panels.

I am wondering if anybody else has measured their bagged out wings and has any idea on where the bagging is happening.

I had a fiddle with the panels to see if I could tighten up the bagged wing. There's no obvious slack to fold or tuck. It's not like a simple tailoring job. The wing works perfectly well and I don't want to make random cuts and tucks without good reason.

My current theory is that maybe the stretch is in the leading edge. There's a lot more material and tension there to cause stretch. If that's the case then Aluula and N-weave wings might be more resistant to bagging. The jury is still out on that. Reviews say no bagging but user experience says there is.

KB7
NSW, 101 posts
1 Feb 2023 1:12PM
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I agree with your theory that the leading edge stretch cause bagging. I have OR Glide Hybrids in 6m,5m and 4m bought in Oct 2021 at the same time a friend bought the OR glide full Allula versions in the same sizes. We both sail 200+ days a year. All my wings are bagged out much more than his so we believe this has to be the leading edge stretch difference in materials. Also to get the highest performance I over pressure my wings 1-2 psi (stated in OR manual) which probably has not helped.

My 5m is especially bagged out with over 200 hours but it still performs great, perhaps low end takes an extra knot or so, but wave riding still one of the best wings out there,

I'm just going to run them all until they take one wave pounding too many.

patronus
319 posts
1 Feb 2023 1:20PM
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Gorgo said..
I have two identical wings, one with 160 hours on it, the other with 3 hours. The 160 hour wing was badly damaged in the surf (badly torn strut and exploded bladder). I bought a new one because it was super cheap on Black Friday sale, then repaired the damaged wing because it was a fun project.

The 160 hour wing has the usual floppiness in the canopy of a bagged out wing. The 3 hour wing is taut and tidy. The bagged out wing feels a little slack when under powered. It feels fine when powered up. The top end range is fantastic, but that might have more to do with the design of the wing.

When I pulled apart the old wing there were all sorts of stretch and stress marks on the strut bladder aligning with the handle positions and the leading edge and the bit that exploded.

I ran a ruler over the panels of both wings and they are identical. No more than 2mm difference in the width and length of the panels.

I am wondering if anybody else has measured their bagged out wings and has any idea on where the bagging is happening.

I had a fiddle with the panels to see if I could tighten up the bagged wing. There's no obvious slack to fold or tuck. It's not like a simple tailoring job. The wing works perfectly well and I don't want to make random cuts and tucks without good reason.

My current theory is that maybe the stretch is in the leading edge. There's a lot more material and tension there to cause stretch. If that's the case then Aluula and N-weave wings might be more resistant to bagging. The jury is still out on that. Reviews say no bagging but user experience says there is.

Someone wrote the manufacturers of Dacron for Leading Edge supply different grades. Some are stiffer and degrade slower after stress and sunshine. I guess the forces from the canopy apply torsion to the LE which twists and canopy bags. I still find bagged out look worse than they are.

dejavu
801 posts
2 Feb 2023 3:18AM
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I suspect rider weight, strut PSI and strut material contribute to wings bagging out. A heavier rider will take out a bigger wing in 20 knots than a lighter rider, which should put more stress on the canopy since it is larger and under more load (a heavier rider can hold the wing down in heavier gusts than a lighter rider, again putting the canopy material under more load, especially if using a harness). If the strut material is stiffer and you've added another 1 or 2 PSI above the recommended level then the strut has less give and something has to take the load -- the canopy material. If the strut doesn't bend allowing the canopy to twist and exhaust the air then this might also lead to the canopy stretching. I may be wrong but I think this explanation makes at least some sense.

Grantmac
1941 posts
2 Feb 2023 3:55AM
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Larger diameter tubes with lower inflation pressure should last longer at the expense of performance. The wings I've used have fallen in this category and don't seem to bag out appreciably.

Gorgo
VIC, 4899 posts
2 Feb 2023 12:05PM
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Last night's session was meant to be strong wind but ended up a light wind session. I was using my oldest wing. When powered it was absolutely fine with the power perfectly between my favourite handles.

As I struggled to keep powered I found I was moving my hands as far back as they would go and that still wasn't enough. That is what I would expect when the camber of the wing moves further back and the deepest part of the profile is not where it is supposed to be. It might be easier to manage with a boom or long rigid handles.

I've experienced something similar with my two oldest wings. I can't recall having that feeling with a newer wing, but I haven't done any proper testing. It's not something I try to do. I prefer to go out and have fun and not deliberately make things difficult for myself.

warwickl
NSW, 2163 posts
2 Feb 2023 5:18PM
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Funny, I read the topic as bragging, well both tend to be a bit inflated and streched out.

So I guess if you have a bagged out windwing and you say with your skills it still works like new then you are bragging. ?

Britfoil360
52 posts
2 Feb 2023 3:27PM
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This is a eight week old 7m mode and doesn't look to be fairing well. The rider is about 70kg and he switches down when the wind picks up .

warwickl
NSW, 2163 posts
2 Feb 2023 8:35PM
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This is an issue known by North and I believe replaced.
That aside they are superb and not all have this issue.

AnyBoard
NSW, 230 posts
2 Feb 2023 9:28PM
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Britfoil360 said..



This is a eight week old 7m mode and doesn't look to be fairing well. The rider is about 70kg and he switches down when the wind picks up .


Wow.
What is a 70kg rider doing with a 7m wing? Maybe 4-6 knots and the canopy is bagged?

How can we trust brands. This can't be true.

dejavu
801 posts
2 Feb 2023 10:52PM
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AnyBoard said..

Britfoil360 said..



This is a eight week old 7m mode and doesn't look to be fairing well. The rider is about 70kg and he switches down when the wind picks up .



Wow.
What is a 70kg rider doing with a 7m wing? Maybe 4-6 knots and the canopy is bagged?

How can we trust brands. This can't be true.


I agree! How did this happen? Either this particular wing has defective material or something we're unaware of occurred. There are lots of videos on Youtube of wingers using Modes and if they were experiencing issues I think we'd be hearing the complaints by now -- lots of complaints. When there were some handle issues (handles pulling out) with the Duotone Unit V2 there were complaints here and videos on Youtube about the problem. Here's hoping we don't start seeing a number of videos on Youtube of bagged out North Mode wings. .

"This is an issue known by North and I believe replaced." I sure hope so!

Driks
105 posts
3 Feb 2023 12:28AM
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Conclusion.... Bagging matters, happens faster then we want, bigger guys bagging more then the tiny once and u need good stuff!??!

lobodomar
14 posts
3 Feb 2023 12:57AM
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In my experience bagging out actually increases lowend power. Everything else gets worse though, specially upwind performance.

Oahuwaterwalker
189 posts
3 Feb 2023 1:06AM
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lobodomar said..
In my experience bagging out actually increases lowend power. Everything else gets worse though, specially upwind performance.


I've experienced the same thing.

The only wing I've owned that hasn't bagged out significantly with a lot of use is a Reedin X Wing. The trade off right now seems to be heavier material. There's probably other materials that also keep their shape.

Oahuwaterwalker
189 posts
3 Feb 2023 1:07AM
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lobodomar said..
In my experience bagging out actually increases lowend power. Everything else gets worse though, specially upwind performance.


I've experienced the same thing.

The only wing I've owned that hasn't bagged out significantly with a lot of use is a Reedin X Wing. The trade off right now seems to be heavier material. There's probably other materials that also keep their shape.

Gorgo
VIC, 4899 posts
11 Apr 2023 3:11PM
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I measured the panels of my two 5m wings, one with 166 hours and looking very bagged and the other with 18 hours and tight as a drum. I was looking for a difference so I could decide on any modifications to the bagged out canopy.

The panels were identical in both span and length. The canopy was not stretched at all.

The manufacturer tells me the two wings are identical apart from the handles and some tweaks to the strut seam to make it more durable.

The one difference I did find is that measuring the span of the wing at rest from strut to wing tip the bagged out wing was 50mm narrower than the newer wing. Pushing the tip out 50mm made the canopy appear perfectly tight the same as the new wing.

That supports the idea that the inflated frame is the part that has aged. I added a bit more air to the bagged wing and that made no difference.

I could put a 25mm tuck across the trailing edge on both sides. That doesn't appeal to me too much. It seems a bit random and I don't like fixing symptoms when the cause is something else. I'm pretty keen home repairer but my confidence doesn't stretch to redesigning a leading edge to make the tips sit a bit wider.

While the old wing looks baggy at rest, including flopping around in the water, it looks fine when it is loaded. It also works very well when powered. I actually use it as my disposable wing of choice when conditions get a bit gnarly. At 166 hours I don't mind damaging it and I've done some major repairs to it so I'm pretty sure I can fix anything that gets damaged. It does feel a bit unstable when pumping in very light winds, but I would use different equipment in those conditions.

PS I have a 6m wing of the later model with 54 hours and it shows no bagging at all.

Driks
105 posts
12 Apr 2023 12:19PM
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"That supports the idea that the inflated frame is the part that has aged."

If u are right than it's pointless to buy mod3 stuff or other fancy canopy and more important to get penta-x, aluula, n-weave etc.!?



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"Does bagging matter?" started by patronus