Forums > Wing Foiling General

Does bagging matter?

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Created by patronus > 9 months ago, 28 Jan 2023
Gorgo
VIC, 4899 posts
12 Apr 2023 5:23PM
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Short answer, correct. Zero measurable difference in the canopy. 50mm measurable difference in the frame.

But my measurements are for two wings from one brand, and at rest. Anything could be happening to the wing under load. Other wings could be different.

The leading edge material is dimension polyant so pretty much the same as every other brand. The construction is very light with none of the double panels that other brands might have.

I certainly don't feel disadvantaged in any way using my baggy old wing compared to people with high end super expensive wings. I get my share of waves and probably more than some other people.

Ideally other people investigating their saggy wings would do some comparisons of panels and the frame and we might learn something.

It would be good if a wing designer could do an interview or write and article that discusses how wings age in use and methods of avoiding that aging. It's too easy to say the canopy is stretched just because it looks floppy and that is what you would intuitively expect to happen.

patronus
319 posts
12 Apr 2023 4:23PM
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Some brands are moving to different canopy panel layouts (radial and lateral) "to match and spread loads" let's hope that helps. Not seen much on leading edge beyond another layer near strut or expensive material.
Someone on here said Dacron ages poorly especially in the sun and tubes twist, and higher grades age better.

Driks
105 posts
12 Apr 2023 4:25PM
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It's quit annoying with wing ****ery. Now new slick with mod3 but no penta x. I wondered about north to bring out mode with super new strut and leading edge Material but only double rip canopy. Sometimes I got the impression all wing Designers a drunk all day long! :)

MProject04
427 posts
13 Apr 2023 3:19PM
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My wings immediately look and feel very bagged as soon as new gear hits the market. They feel even more bagged (min. 20% increase) when I see my fellow wing buddies appearing with a spanking brand new 2023 model wing.

warwickl
NSW, 2163 posts
13 Apr 2023 5:39PM
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Gorgo said..
I measured the panels of my two 5m wings, one with 166 hours and looking very bagged and the other with 18 hours and tight as a drum. I was looking for a difference so I could decide on any modifications to the bagged out canopy.

The panels were identical in both span and length. The canopy was not stretched at all.

The manufacturer tells me the two wings are identical apart from the handles and some tweaks to the strut seam to make it more durable.

The one difference I did find is that measuring the span of the wing at rest from strut to wing tip the bagged out wing was 50mm narrower than the newer wing. Pushing the tip out 50mm made the canopy appear perfectly tight the same as the new wing.

That supports the idea that the inflated frame is the part that has aged. I added a bit more air to the bagged wing and that made no difference.

I could put a 25mm tuck across the trailing edge on both sides. That doesn't appeal to me too much. It seems a bit random and I don't like fixing symptoms when the cause is something else. I'm pretty keen home repairer but my confidence doesn't stretch to redesigning a leading edge to make the tips sit a bit wider.

While the old wing looks baggy at rest, including flopping around in the water, it looks fine when it is loaded. It also works very well when powered. I actually use it as my disposable wing of choice when conditions get a bit gnarly. At 166 hours I don't mind damaging it and I've done some major repairs to it so I'm pretty sure I can fix anything that gets damaged. It does feel a bit unstable when pumping in very light winds, but I would use different equipment in those conditions.

PS I have a 6m wing of the later model with 54 hours and it shows no bagging at all.



Can someone explain how a streched leading edge causes the canopy to bag? I would have thought if the leading edge became steched the span would be wider resulting in a tighter canopy?

patronus
319 posts
13 Apr 2023 4:07PM
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warwickl said..

Gorgo said..
I measured the panels of my two 5m wings, one with 166 hours and looking very bagged and the other with 18 hours and tight as a drum. I was looking for a difference so I could decide on any modifications to the bagged out canopy.

The panels were identical in both span and length. The canopy was not stretched at all.

The manufacturer tells me the two wings are identical apart from the handles and some tweaks to the strut seam to make it more durable.

The one difference I did find is that measuring the span of the wing at rest from strut to wing tip the bagged out wing was 50mm narrower than the newer wing. Pushing the tip out 50mm made the canopy appear perfectly tight the same as the new wing.

That supports the idea that the inflated frame is the part that has aged. I added a bit more air to the bagged wing and that made no difference.

I could put a 25mm tuck across the trailing edge on both sides. That doesn't appeal to me too much. It seems a bit random and I don't like fixing symptoms when the cause is something else. I'm pretty keen home repairer but my confidence doesn't stretch to redesigning a leading edge to make the tips sit a bit wider.

While the old wing looks baggy at rest, including flopping around in the water, it looks fine when it is loaded. It also works very well when powered. I actually use it as my disposable wing of choice when conditions get a bit gnarly. At 166 hours I don't mind damaging it and I've done some major repairs to it so I'm pretty sure I can fix anything that gets damaged. It does feel a bit unstable when pumping in very light winds, but I would use different equipment in those conditions.

PS I have a 6m wing of the later model with 54 hours and it shows no bagging at all.




Can someone explain how a streched leading edge causes the canopy to bag? I would have thought if the leading edge became steched the span would be wider resulting in a tighter canopy?


Speculating - when under load the outside is being stretched, so when lieing on the beach and under inside air pressure it's the outside that gives. Someone here said the canopy is stitched onto upper or outer edge of Leading Edge so under load causes the Dacron to twist and deform.

Gorgo
VIC, 4899 posts
17 Apr 2023 4:33PM
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warwickl said..
...

Can someone explain how a streched leading edge causes the canopy to bag? I would have thought if the leading edge became steched the span would be wider resulting in a tighter canopy?


I measured the leading edge panels on my two wings and they are identical. There is no measurable difference at all. There is no systemic difference in leading edge or canopy panel dimensions that would account for bagging.

I can detect only two differences in the wings.

The arc of the leading edge of the new wing is a bit straighter across the front before the bend to the tips. I did measure that and it plots out on a graph to look reasonable.

The old one feels generally soft. The new wing is crispy. My current guess is simply that new fabric is simply in better condition and better suited to building a rigid inflatable structure. All the PR about Aluula and others says how much stiffer they are without having higher pressures so I have to assume the coatings and and age and design of the fabric has an effect on the final shape.

patronus
319 posts
20 Apr 2023 5:28PM
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Gorgo said..

warwickl said..
...

Can someone explain how a streched leading edge causes the canopy to bag? I would have thought if the leading edge became steched the span would be wider resulting in a tighter canopy?



I measured the leading edge panels on my two wings and they are identical. There is no measurable difference at all. There is no systemic difference in leading edge or canopy panel dimensions that would account for bagging.

I can detect only two differences in the wings.

The arc of the leading edge of the new wing is a bit straighter across the front before the bend to the tips. I did measure that and it plots out on a graph to look reasonable.

The old one feels generally soft. The new wing is crispy. My current guess is simply that new fabric is simply in better condition and better suited to building a rigid inflatable structure. All the PR about Aluula and others says how much stiffer they are without having higher pressures so I have to assume the coatings and and age and design of the fabric has an effect on the final shape.


I wonder if stitching stretches? A guy who works with a kitesurf company said if a strut is misaligned by 5mm when stitched to the leading edge he notices it so maybe small variances make big differences?

Gorgo
VIC, 4899 posts
21 Apr 2023 7:44AM
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All the seams are glued and sewn. The glue is fairly strong. It's easy enough to peel open a seam. Not so easy to simply pull it apart.

The glue is used to aid in precision sewing and to make the seam stronger and more water resistant. The glue sets around the threads locking them into place.

You can see a little tension on the stitch holes when the bladder is fully inflated, but not enough to measure.

kersh
NSW, 88 posts
21 Apr 2023 10:56AM
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Numpty question but, if the canopy is bagging, wouldn't it actually hold more wind?
Not as efficient for pumping of course but OK when on foil.

Gorgo
VIC, 4899 posts
21 Apr 2023 2:03PM
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Super super simplified, the lift is felt at the very top of the camber in the wing/sail/whatever. In a rigid/stiff wing that lift is locked in to a specific spot that roughly aligns with the middle of the handles.

In a soft, floppy wing the top of the camber moves, generally backwards as the wing billows out. When you're nicely powered up and cruising it's not a problem. When you're at the lower limit of the power and the lift is centred over your back hand, that sucks. You end up pitching your wing higher and higher but the power still feels like it's in the wrong place.

Captain_Morg
TAS, 722 posts
28 May 2023 1:17PM
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Has anyone had the leach " tucked" , as that is wheer i have noticed becomes loose. or does it ruin overall shape as one poster mentioned.

Thatspec
319 posts
28 May 2023 9:37PM
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MProject04 said..
My wings immediately look and feel very bagged as soon as new gear hits the market. They feel even more bagged (min. 20% increase) when I see my fellow wing buddies appearing with a spanking brand new 2023 model wing.


Best explanation

martyj4
494 posts
29 May 2023 6:03AM
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I started on a 5m Echo. Some use (maybe 50 hours?). It's a little bagged out now.
Upgraded to 5m Slick. Heaps of use (maybe 100 hrs??). Fairly bagged out. Still good to use in a wide range of winds.
Further upgrade to 5m Slick SLS. Fair bit of use and wind range is slightly wider than the original slick. It's not as bagged out as the original either. I have become very tuned into the slicks since they're what I've been using for light wind wings.
Repaired a slow leak in the bladder in the 5m Echo the other day and took it for a run - having not used it for a few years. The lower end was not as good as the slicks, but OK. However, the upper end of the Echo was disasterous. Back winding, unstable and heavy in 20 knots+. I have also recently tried an old matador and it too was a disaster for the upper end.
My take on this is that wing design is more important than age and bagginess of the wing. But I do feel bagginess does play a part in getting up on foil early. When pumping, if the canopy is tight, the reaction to your hands when you pull is faster, because the wing isn't filling up the bagginess before transferring power. So I think baggy wings are marginally less responsive than tighter canopies.

Thatspec
319 posts
29 May 2023 9:25AM
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Captain_Morg said..
Has anyone had the leach " tucked" , as that is wheer i have noticed becomes loose. or does it ruin overall shape as one poster mentioned.


Yes.
I bought used V1 3.5 Strike without demoing it first, looked fine to my eye but I'm no sailmaker.Trailing edge flapped loudly on just one side when well powered, other side was silent. Local sailmaker looked at and said it wasn't sewn correctly originally (Canopy wasn't perfectly centered on the strut towards the TE). Too expensive to bother with deconstructing the strut etc. he took a tiny pie shaped wedge out of the TE panel and it's much quieter now. Ruined the resale value but that's ruined anyway now from age, great backup, works fine

Dspace
VIC, 279 posts
29 May 2023 2:15PM
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martyj4 said..
Further upgrade to 5m Slick SLS. Fair bit of use and wind range is slightly wider than the original slick. It's not as bagged out as the original either.


SLS Slicks are the first wing models I'm holding onto for at least two full seasons. I have a 6, 5, 4, 3m quiver so no one size gets a huge amount of use. To be honest I don't notice any bagging at all, even though I assume there's at least a small amount there. Spousal approved toy fund being redirected to a Foil Drive+

riverripper
10 posts
29 Nov 2023 9:09PM
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I am riding the latest 2023 model and after 30+ rides, the standard dacron strut material streches as expected and the wing starts to bag out, due to the loss of profile tension.

Hopefully Duotone switches from the standard Dacron to Penta AX (like on the previous Slick SLS) or to an even stiffer new strutt material.

Any news/videos/images spotted yet on the upcoming 2024 DUOTONE Slick ?

Shlogger
388 posts
29 Nov 2023 9:59PM
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I've bought the 6.8 M and 4.2 North Mode Pro's mostly because of the materials upgrade, and particularly because of the new canopy material. Let you know in a year.

warwickl
NSW, 2163 posts
30 Nov 2023 4:35PM
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Just in a fun mood atm.
Bagging is not nice just be friendly to everyone ??



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"Does bagging matter?" started by patronus