I've been using the 180 stab for over 4 months, it's a real upgrade in comparison with the original HA stab.
The glide is far better and the foil feels more alive.
I use the 180 stab for my 3 (640-1040-1440) HA frontwings in combination with the short fuselage.

The only small downside is there is a little whistle/tone when you're up to speed, it's nothing serious.
I've been using a pre-production version so maybe it's resolved for the final version.

pacoz said..
Sounds good. Do you think it's worth buying more than one or do you think the 180 is the way to go for these front wings? I do ride the 220ha until now

I have the 210 and would say it is very similar to the 220HA in speed (but improved turning - I assume due to the lack of wing tips). I use it with the 1240HA and mach 1 1100.

I have the 1040HA and 850 Ultra Jet on order and am tempted to buy the 180 after reading Xinthemix's post.

Can I get some advice please on foil progression please. Me: 80kg, progressed out of the beginner stage, make ~50% of jibes, still on flat water with ambitions to ride bumps. Currently riding 1600ma, it was the only foil I had ridden until the other day when I jumped on a cloud 9 fs1150 which was, well, faster, still turned well and had seriously more glide. Do I head down the HA path to say a 1040 or is the mach 1 900 worth a look also? I will ask around local shops to demo. Also, it seems there's quite the upgrade from the s27 to 2024 models, is it even worth looking at the older gear?

ando_s said..
Can I get some advice please on foil progression please. Me: 80kg, progressed out of the beginner stage, make ~50% of jibes, still on flat water with ambitions to ride bumps. Currently riding 1600ma, it was the only foil I had ridden until the other day when I jumped on a cloud 9 fs1150 which was, well, faster, still turned well and had seriously more glide. Do I head down the HA path to say a 1040 or is the mach 1 900 worth a look also? I will ask around local shops to demo. Also, it seems there's quite the upgrade from the s27 to 2024 models, is it even worth looking at the older gear?

My guess is that the current HA1040 foil (span 980mm) will have something like 120 to 150% of the bottom-end lift compared to a Mach1-900 (span 800mm). The Mach1 would probably roll in-out of carve turns easier, and be more pitch stable at speed. Very different foils, just going by the look of them and the specs and what naish marketing wrote. The 2024 HA series foils are very good all-rounders (speed, turning and bottom end lift) which are happy to surface breach the tips and you can go smaller in size area than most people would guess. If you liked the fs1150 then the 2024 HA1040 might be a lot of fun for you. Yes, the HAs are "quite an upgrade" vs any of the older foils. Experimenting with rear foil mounting shims can make a big difference to ease of use and roll turn response. The old naish 914 is a very well behaved foil which can be pushed fast and turns very well and predictably, if you can find one. But the newer HA840 lifts off a little easier and also glides easier than the 914. If you ever get the HA640, then keep in mind that is way more turn predictable (and superb) when used on a very stiff mast. If you get any noise from a new HA front foil, then block sand top and bottom near the trailing edge to thin the clear-coat and they should go totally silent, and faster too.

Xinthemix said..

pacoz said..
Sounds good. Do you think it's worth buying more than one or do you think the 180 is the way to go for these front wings? I do ride the 220ha until now

I've been given the opportunity to test the whole range, but i've only kept the 180.
The 210 was also good for my range of frontwings but it feels a little to big for my 640 (it was duable).
If my smallest frontwing was a 1040 i would go for the 210.
The fact that i've only have 1 stabilizer keeps everything simple.

I mainly use the jet ha 1440 and the 1040, just sometimes the Mach 1 900, so I try to decide which stab to take.

Could you please maybe elaborate a little bit more, why you would pick the 210 over the 180, if your smallest frontwing is the 1040?

Lavo said..
I am loving this thread! So much information and all this fresh Naish gear is epic.

I have a question RE the new fuselage are we likely to see the HA and other front wings move to the 'hammerhead' fuse in the coming seasons or will we stick with the scarf joint? I can see benefits going both ways.

RE the 2D stab or 'stubby stab' as I've been calling it. My local dealer got a 210 in for us recently and had a couple runs on it with my 1240HA, it definitely feels quicker and hums like a church choir (which I kinda love). I also felt like low end it would grab my pump and I could gain speed again much easier than my previous chopped 220HA. And turns. oh she turns, I have found my chopped 220 would often cavitate or feel like that and I would lose all my power on sharp turns (probably the way it was cut etc) but this felt like it snaked behind nicely. In saying all this I have only had a couple of sessions and placebo effect is likely at play. I will be going smaller for a 180 to play with both an 840 and 1240.

Stay stoked

Interesting call,are Naish users going to have to pay for the new hammerhead fuselage,when the new wings come out ????I broke a fuselge because it couldnt handle the new larger front wings.

Picked up the new HM Carbon mast, 85cm. Yes I know it was designed for the big wings but is absolutely awesome on the small stuff too. I've had about 4 sessions on it so far, zero ventilation even when pushed really hard. I'm mainly using the Mach 1 900 or 2024 HA1040 for swell riding and jumping.

Ron54 said..

Lavo said..
I am loving this thread! So much information and all this fresh Naish gear is epic.

I have a question RE the new fuselage are we likely to see the HA and other front wings move to the 'hammerhead' fuse in the coming seasons or will we stick with the scarf joint? I can see benefits going both ways.

RE the 2D stab or 'stubby stab' as I've been calling it. My local dealer got a 210 in for us recently and had a couple runs on it with my 1240HA, it definitely feels quicker and hums like a church choir (which I kinda love). I also felt like low end it would grab my pump and I could gain speed again much easier than my previous chopped 220HA. And turns. oh she turns, I have found my chopped 220 would often cavitate or feel like that and I would lose all my power on sharp turns (probably the way it was cut etc) but this felt like it snaked behind nicely. In saying all this I have only had a couple of sessions and placebo effect is likely at play. I will be going smaller for a 180 to play with both an 840 and 1240.

Stay stoked

Interesting call,are Naish users going to have to pay for the new hammerhead fuselage,when the new wings come out ????I broke a fuselge because it couldnt handle the new larger front wings.

No, you will find all the mainstream foils will remain on the standard fuselage system. Through development of the Glider HA line, there was a need to build the Glider Fuselage to provide a stiffer connection for the wider span wings (over 100cm+).

Currently the HA mkii all setup on the standard fuse. Possibly the 1840 might benefit from the Glider fuselage in some instances however from personal experience manages well, the 1440 and under all manage very well on the standard fuse.

It is impressive to actually break a Naish Fuselage??? I am interested as to how you would achieve this. There was one season were Naish removed some bulk from the scarf joint to save on weight, and there were some failures there which were replaced immediately and the fuselage was reverted to solid again mid season once realized it was not sufficient. Those handful aside, we do not have "breaks" on fuselage.

The Glider fuselage is excellent and very stiff, but like wise with other brands, it does take area to accommodate the extra bolts making the front wing thinker wider from the centre, so it is not perfectly suited to smaller foils which is where our existing fuse and scarf joint give a superior efficient join.

Without know exactly what is coming, I would imagine any new larger span foils (say 110+cm) may be designed to be accommodated on the glider fuselage.

Ride safe,

JB

Windgenuity said..

MilesH said..
Has anybody used the new Naish S28 840HA and 850 Ultra Jet?

I can't demo the new range in the smaller sizes and would be keen to get peoples views and what stabiliser they have been using with them?

I know you're after a more non-bias report, but thought I'd at least give you something.

Both the 840 and 850 are very special foils. Worlds apart, but equally impressive.

The 850 Ultra Jet is possibly the best winging foil I've ever used powered up. I am over 90kg, so need some wind to be comfy on it, but once on foil, the 850 is soo comfortable, you'll actually feel like you're going slow! until you check you GPS and realize you've clocked up PB's! It's breech proof and super easy to jump with un comparable recovery on landings. It is such a pity that trend steers serious wingers away from this foil, as I can guarantee a serious winger would lose thier shnit over it.

The 840 brings to the HA line a serious performance increase. Probably as big as the jump in performance from the 1040 to the 1040 mkii, the 840 is all that and more again over the 1040 mkii. Note it is an 840, so smallish and requires some power and skills, but you will be very surprised by how smooth this foil is. Like the 640 which is again another league, the 840 is soo fast but controlled, and as long as you keep above it's minimum speed, actually pumps unbelievable even for a heavy rider. As expected once you go too slow, you're going to start sinking this foil, but it is not a sudden drop like some HA's. Tip breeching is comparable to the 1040 or 1240 (which if you haven't ridden the mkii foils, un believable). I have DW'ed this foil in 15-18kn and hit a PB first go. It was more work than my 1040, but amazing that it was possible for me. If I lived in a windier area, I would likely use this foil all the time. Winging it is fast and free, excellent pumping, but against the 850 UJ, the 840 HA will not let you go fast fast like it does. The 850's control and seemingly limitless top end is simply dreamy.

If you're after fast top speeds, incredible control, hard core wave riding, breech ability, jump ease and recovery, then the 850 Ultra Jet is your good day weapon.

If you want ultimate efficiency blended with tip breech friendly turning and glide then the 840 HA mkii covers a lot of ground and wont leaving you wanting.

Hopfully someone can jump on and give you anther view point also, but I can honestly say if I were a few KG lighter and lived in better wind conditions, the 840 and 850 would always be on my fuses.

Yes, I am Naish Australia, not hiding!

Ride safe.

JB

Very interesting. I had kind of dismissed the jet line from consideration. My first foil was the huuge jet2450. I traded that for the ha2100 which I still have and enjoy. I sold my ha1400 because I bought the hype about high aspect foils (AR 10+). I have buyer's remorse. I don't care for the long takeoff run and the stall is abrupt. When it's in it's envelope it's a joy. It's just a small envelope. I'm definitely going back to the Naish HA. Probably the 1240 for most days. On windy days at the lake the swell gets pretty big and I've had a lot of takeoffs spoiled by swell disrupting the board before lift off. I was looking very seriously at the previous gen MA foils for those days. There's a few bargains around. But perhaps the new jet would be a consideration for that requirement. Could you share a little more perspective?
P.S. I initially chose Naish because of the scarf joint. I still think it's best.

Windgenuity said..

MilesH said..
Has anybody used the new Naish S28 840HA and 850 Ultra Jet?

I can't demo the new range in the smaller sizes and would be keen to get peoples views and what stabiliser they have been using with them?

I know you're after a more non-bias report, but thought I'd at least give you something.

Both the 840 and 850 are very special foils. Worlds apart, but equally impressive.

The 850 Ultra Jet is possibly the best winging foil I've ever used powered up. I am over 90kg, so need some wind to be comfy on it, but once on foil, the 850 is soo comfortable, you'll actually feel like you're going slow! until you check you GPS and realize you've clocked up PB's! It's breech proof and super easy to jump with un comparable recovery on landings. It is such a pity that trend steers serious wingers away from this foil, as I can guarantee a serious winger would lose thier shnit over it.

The 840 brings to the HA line a serious performance increase. Probably as big as the jump in performance from the 1040 to the 1040 mkii, the 840 is all that and more again over the 1040 mkii. Note it is an 840, so smallish and requires some power and skills, but you will be very surprised by how smooth this foil is. Like the 640 which is again another league, the 840 is soo fast but controlled, and as long as you keep above it's minimum speed, actually pumps unbelievable even for a heavy rider. As expected once you go too slow, you're going to start sinking this foil, but it is not a sudden drop like some HA's. Tip breeching is comparable to the 1040 or 1240 (which if you haven't ridden the mkii foils, un believable). I have DW'ed this foil in 15-18kn and hit a PB first go. It was more work than my 1040, but amazing that it was possible for me. If I lived in a windier area, I would likely use this foil all the time. Winging it is fast and free, excellent pumping, but against the 850 UJ, the 840 HA will not let you go fast fast like it does. The 850's control and seemingly limitless top end is simply dreamy.

If you're after fast top speeds, incredible control, hard core wave riding, breech ability, jump ease and recovery, then the 850 Ultra Jet is your good day weapon.

If you want ultimate efficiency blended with tip breech friendly turning and glide then the 840 HA mkii covers a lot of ground and wont leaving you wanting.

Hopfully someone can jump on and give you anther view point also, but I can honestly say if I were a few KG lighter and lived in better wind conditions, the 840 and 850 would always be on my fuses.

Yes, I am Naish Australia, not hiding!

Ride safe.

JB

Thanks JB that's really helpful (as always)

I couldn't decide so I treated myself and ordered both!

ValeryChe said..

Windgenuity said..

MilesH said..
Has anybody used the new Naish S28 840HA and 850 Ultra Jet?

I can't demo the new range in the smaller sizes and would be keen to get peoples views and what stabiliser they have been using with them?

I know you're after a more non-bias report, but thought I'd at least give you something.

Both the 840 and 850 are very special foils. Worlds apart, but equally impressive.

The 850 Ultra Jet is possibly the best winging foil I've ever used powered up. I am over 90kg, so need some wind to be comfy on it, but once on foil, the 850 is soo comfortable, you'll actually feel like you're going slow! until you check you GPS and realize you've clocked up PB's! It's breech proof and super easy to jump with un comparable recovery on landings. It is such a pity that trend steers serious wingers away from this foil, as I can guarantee a serious winger would lose thier shnit over it.

The 840 brings to the HA line a serious performance increase. Probably as big as the jump in performance from the 1040 to the 1040 mkii, the 840 is all that and more again over the 1040 mkii. Note it is an 840, so smallish and requires some power and skills, but you will be very surprised by how smooth this foil is. Like the 640 which is again another league, the 840 is soo fast but controlled, and as long as you keep above it's minimum speed, actually pumps unbelievable even for a heavy rider. As expected once you go too slow, you're going to start sinking this foil, but it is not a sudden drop like some HA's. Tip breeching is comparable to the 1040 or 1240 (which if you haven't ridden the mkii foils, un believable). I have DW'ed this foil in 15-18kn and hit a PB first go. It was more work than my 1040, but amazing that it was possible for me. If I lived in a windier area, I would likely use this foil all the time. Winging it is fast and free, excellent pumping, but against the 850 UJ, the 840 HA will not let you go fast fast like it does. The 850's control and seemingly limitless top end is simply dreamy.

If you're after fast top speeds, incredible control, hard core wave riding, breech ability, jump ease and recovery, then the 850 Ultra Jet is your good day weapon.

If you want ultimate efficiency blended with tip breech friendly turning and glide then the 840 HA mkii covers a lot of ground and wont leaving you wanting.

Hopfully someone can jump on and give you anther view point also, but I can honestly say if I were a few KG lighter and lived in better wind conditions, the 840 and 850 would always be on my fuses.

Yes, I am Naish Australia, not hiding!

Ride safe.

JB

Hi JB. If I have a Mach 900, does it make sense to buy an Ultra Jet 850?

Hey V,

They are different beasts, The 900 has a slickness about it that is super fun for blasting and racing. The Mach-1 series has an innate ability to hold an incredible average speed over long runs. Whilst the peak speeds may not be as high as you can achieve on a Ultra Jet, the average speed you can achieve easily over a longer distance and through lulls is superior. Also with turning less of an objective with the Mach-1, they are stiffer and more direct/responsive.
The Ultra Jet handles the power basically, you can give it hell and it will just take it with no arguing! I've never felt more secure hitting large white waters in cutbacks and floaters or being confident in throwing air than on the UJ. Where other foils would be on the edge of exploding the UJ just smiles and says "Let's GO!"

I am so lucky to have access to all foils, but the 850 is always in my van along with a small wing, just for those crazy days. It just makes every session fun even when you're scared .

Hope this helps,

Ride safe,

JB

Yes, I have a similar question JB, for outright blasting but with an easier to live with front wing for me it's a toss up between the HA 840, 640 or the Mach 1 700. The Mach 1 900 is brilliant, so stiff and totally reliable in the roughest conditions but is slightly speed limited when loading up for jumps. Chasing higher top speed but also low speed lift to get going after landing a jump.


My gut feeling is the larger wingspans of the HA's will provide the extra lift to get going compared to the Mach 1 so erring towards the HA's. Obviously the 640 will be faster than the 840 but is it too small and be difficult to get going again after landing? And will the 840 have any speed advantage over the Mach 1 900? Maybe the 740 is the answer if there was one.


Would be great to be able to demo all wings like yourself, would make the decision easy.

airsail said..
Yes, I have a similar question JB, for outright blasting but with an easier to live with front wing for me it's a toss up between the HA 840, 640 or the Mach 1 700. The Mach 1 900 is brilliant, so stiff and totally reliable in the roughest conditions but is slightly speed limited when loading up for jumps. Chasing higher top speed but also low speed lift to get going after landing a jump.


My gut feeling is the larger wingspans of the HA's will provide the extra lift to get going compared to the Mach 1 so erring towards the HA's. Obviously the 640 will be faster than the 840 but is it too small and be difficult to get going again after landing? And will the 840 have any speed advantage over the Mach 1 900? Maybe the 740 is the answer if there was one.


Would be great to be able to demo all wings like yourself, would make the decision easy.

Think I kind of answered a lot of this above, but with the Mach-1's. I think they are easier to hold speed as opposed to hitting top speeds. In saying that the 700 or even 550 Mach-1's have incredible top speed. They are a little more punchy in their profile section, as opposed to the HA or UJ (smaller ones), so they will ride bigger than they are comparatively.

If I was looking at jump recovery and top end speed/control, then the UJ is pretty hard to skip. But if you want lift and glide/carry then the HA all the way.

I think the hardest thing is people want everything and it is just not possible. Every time a slider is moved towards on characteristic, is moves away from another. This is evident in any foil craft out there (aeroplanes, hydrofoils)

Speed - The faster it can go the less lift it will produce
Lift - The more lift it produces the less stable is will become
Stability - The more stable it becomes, the more drag and stiffer it becomes
Maneuverable - The more maneuverable it becomes the less glide efficiency it will have
Glide - The more glide it has the more the stability is reduced

These are not set guidelines as there is ways to group some characteristics and sometimes achieve 2,3 or maybe if extremely lucky 4 of them at a reasonable effectiveness. but you are always giving something up to achieve something else generally.

egards,

JB

Windgenuity said..

ValeryChe said..

Windgenuity said..

MilesH said..
Has anybody used the new Naish S28 840HA and 850 Ultra Jet?

I can't demo the new range in the smaller sizes and would be keen to get peoples views and what stabiliser they have been using with them?

I know you're after a more non-bias report, but thought I'd at least give you something.

Both the 840 and 850 are very special foils. Worlds apart, but equally impressive.

The 850 Ultra Jet is possibly the best winging foil I've ever used powered up. I am over 90kg, so need some wind to be comfy on it, but once on foil, the 850 is soo comfortable, you'll actually feel like you're going slow! until you check you GPS and realize you've clocked up PB's! It's breech proof and super easy to jump with un comparable recovery on landings. It is such a pity that trend steers serious wingers away from this foil, as I can guarantee a serious winger would lose thier shnit over it.

The 840 brings to the HA line a serious performance increase. Probably as big as the jump in performance from the 1040 to the 1040 mkii, the 840 is all that and more again over the 1040 mkii. Note it is an 840, so smallish and requires some power and skills, but you will be very surprised by how smooth this foil is. Like the 640 which is again another league, the 840 is soo fast but controlled, and as long as you keep above it's minimum speed, actually pumps unbelievable even for a heavy rider. As expected once you go too slow, you're going to start sinking this foil, but it is not a sudden drop like some HA's. Tip breeching is comparable to the 1040 or 1240 (which if you haven't ridden the mkii foils, un believable). I have DW'ed this foil in 15-18kn and hit a PB first go. It was more work than my 1040, but amazing that it was possible for me. If I lived in a windier area, I would likely use this foil all the time. Winging it is fast and free, excellent pumping, but against the 850 UJ, the 840 HA will not let you go fast fast like it does. The 850's control and seemingly limitless top end is simply dreamy.

If you're after fast top speeds, incredible control, hard core wave riding, breech ability, jump ease and recovery, then the 850 Ultra Jet is your good day weapon.

If you want ultimate efficiency blended with tip breech friendly turning and glide then the 840 HA mkii covers a lot of ground and wont leaving you wanting.

Hopfully someone can jump on and give you anther view point also, but I can honestly say if I were a few KG lighter and lived in better wind conditions, the 840 and 850 would always be on my fuses.

Yes, I am Naish Australia, not hiding!

Ride safe.

JB

Hi JB. If I have a Mach 900, does it make sense to buy an Ultra Jet 850?

Hey V,

They are different beasts, The 900 has a slickness about it that is super fun for blasting and racing. The Mach-1 series has an innate ability to hold an incredible average speed over long runs. Whilst the peak speeds may not be as high as you can achieve on a Ultra Jet, the average speed you can achieve easily over a longer distance and through lulls is superior. Also with turning less of an objective with the Mach-1, they are stiffer and more direct/responsive.
The Ultra Jet handles the power basically, you can give it hell and it will just take it with no arguing! I've never felt more secure hitting large white waters in cutbacks and floaters or being confident in throwing air than on the UJ. Where other foils would be on the edge of exploding the UJ just smiles and says "Let's GO!"

I am so lucky to have access to all foils, but the 850 is always in my van along with a small wing, just for those crazy days. It just makes every session fun even when you're scared .

Hope this helps,

Ride safe,

JB

Hi JB. Thanks for the answer. Mostly I use 1040 HA 2024, in light winds 1240 HA 2024. Sometimes Mach 1100 and Mach 900. Mach 900 is difficult to use in our conditions (very gusty wind, sometimes 14-28 knots and gusts can be from different directions). Mach 900 drops when there is not enough speed and does not glide as well as 1040 Mach. Also, when mounting it on a sinker (half my weight), it is much more difficult to run than the 1040. I was thinking about buying an 840 HA or 850 UJ for such conditions. Will they be better?

Thank you.

winddoc said..
From a windsurfing background, top end speed is a big thing for me.
Would you agree with me that the Fastest theoretical foil combination from Naish would be a
640 HA front and 160 stab. combination ? For winging.

Short answer = No. The Kite650 and Mach1-550 are both significantly quicker and more controllable than the HA640. But the HA640 is more versatile...

I can share with you the top end cruising speeds for four of the smaller naish foils. Speeds they do easily, in flat water, before they load up and push a lot of water - just before you feel much load in your arms or feet. This is with the new 180 rear, which is about 1 kt faster than the older 220 at the same angle and drive force, and the 180 is looser in yaw. If you have some stiff and flat sails, then these cruising speeds will prob go up another knot. All these foils had their surfaces block fair sanded with 800 grit.

- HA840 feels like it starts to push significant water at 22.5kts. Tip breaching is no issue. Flat breach recovery = I don't know. Upwind it's ok at times, but it doesn't feel like a VMG race foil to me.
- HA640 cruises up to 24.5 kts. Loads up over 25, and I've never cracked 26 on it. The wide speed range of this foil is excellent, and how well it carve turns is remarkable considering how easily it can glide across lulls. Tip breaching is a non-issue, and it'll tolerate some flat breaches without board touch-down. eg. Flat air breaching in a tack is no problem, but downwind at higher speeds I'm usually crashing when this foil pops out of the water. For all round fun at speeds which create lots of options, this foil is difficult to fault. And it really does shine when used with a stiff mast. Upwind VMG feels pretty good with a suitable sail and ample wind power.
- Kite650 literally cruises up to 26kts. This foil is super easy to control in pitch and at speeds above 20kts it has a very natural roll-carve response - assuming correct angle on the stab. Tip breaching is never noticed. Plus you can flat breach it and skim it on the surface and put it back in the water and it reattaches every time. A great foil for playing around when you can reach all day. Some sessions when I thought maybe I can crack 30kts, I could not do better than low 27s. I've carefully fair-sanded the clear-coat paint, durapox faired the middle nose fairing and also considered clipping a few mm off the twisted tips, but as is, this foil has a very high stall speed and it very difficult to get up on, for a 74kg winger. This foil is diabolically bad for going upwind unless you are substantially powered up with a good upwind sail. This foil is superb for long line tow foiling.
- Mach1-550 cruising speed = I'm not sure yet. On first trial it did just over 25 kts for 3secs with a 5.2m sail in a brief gust of about 12 kts of wind, and it felt very well behaved. So I think it wants to go, and I'm hoping it'll cruise up into the 27s. The Mach1-550 lifts off with perhaps 70% of the effort vs the kite650, and has reasonable upwind perf, somewhere between the Kite650 and HA640 (assuming a decent sail). When breaching a tip, this foil will hold onto an air bubble for long enough that you need to concentrate to shake it off. Downwind twice I accidentally flat breached it and reattached very quickly which made me really happy, since this matters a lot since all foils go a lot faster if you can pilot them just under the surface.

These experiences are using a 103cm SAB M103 mast (12.6mm thick), with my own custom made fuselage which is pretty sleek and 5cm longer than a stock Nash fuse. In flat water I guess these speeds would go up a little with a shorter mast that makes it easier to keep the foil just below the water-air surface.