Chris 249 forum posts in last 60 days

Sailing Anarchy is probably the best place for information, although that’s not saying much.

I had an ultra long shaft Tohatsu 9.8 2 stroke on a 28 footer, replacing an old Drofin. It was certainly noisier and less economical on fuel than a 4 stroke but overall I find it an excellent motor since while the 4 stoke is doubtless a better motor in many ways, the 2 stroke Tohatsu 9.8 is exceptionally light, cheaper, and in my experience reliable. We also have a short shaft 9.8 Toey on the RIB.

The main thing IMHO is to ensure that the prop is deeply immersed when in use, and that you can get to it easily. I cut the transom and stern locker out of the 28’er and mounted the outboard bracket on a pair of traveller tracks, so that the outboard could be tilted up and then roll forward. It then went into a locker in one quarter. It drove the boat faster than the 13hp diesel with folding prop did in all conditions and made the boat significantly faster under sail.

A through-transom system is unlikely to work on a Roberts but you could perhaps fit an outboard bracket that slides vertically on traveller cars so that you can adjust the height of the outboard, and get it on and off without walking on water.

The other major thing IMO is to ensure that you don’t underpower the boat. If you have a decent sized outboard, you can drive the boat to hull speed in strong winds and that moves the stern wave aft. That will immerse the propeller another 20-30cm or so, and if cavitation occurs (which was almost never on my boat) the prop will be moving forward and out of the pocket of aerated water and into “good” water, rather than beating up the same patch of aerated water as happens with a slow boat cavitating.

The 9.8 on the 28er cavitated for a second a couple of times in sloppy ocean swells, which was fine. One day down the south coast in a vicious westerly, the wind was getting too strong to handle a No 4 headsail and no main, so I went to motor upwind to harbour from about four miles out. To my surprise, instead of suffering from cavitation or lack of power in what were pretty edgy conditions, the only problem was that the 9.8 pushed the boat so hard I got spray to the lower spreaders and a heavy soaking.

jonesmb said..

Can10 said..
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Building-a-hollow-Division-2-sailboard-2Guys

Hi Guys

Feel free to contact my friend Matic at One Hundred Boards in Slovenia. He`s used to build hollowed D2s.

onehundredboardz.com/division-ii/

Cheers

Those onehundredboardz look amazing. I'd be interested in doing a replica build of other DivII design e.g. Davidson, Tornado, M1 etc. So if you or anyone else has access to the design lines that would be great. I'm currently working on my 2nd Lechner build, experimenting with slightly different build techniques.

The link you shared should be www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/General/Building-a-hollow-Division-2-sailboard and I've updated my documentation to a new website buildwind.surf/

Great work on that board build - very very impressive.

I have a Lechner, ex Lars and a ’92 one I think, in northern NSW if you want a live one to check out.

shaggybaxter said..
I don't understand the debate, when did wearing a PFD and swimming become mutually exclusive? That's what inflatable PFD's are for. If you can swim, you can swim with a manual pfd on (I'm referring to not inflated).
When you've run out of gas then inflate the bloody thing.

I can’t swim as well even in a deflated PFD as without one, but there’s no doubt they have their place. My concern is that the importance of a PDF may be being over-stated as a result of studies that use poor data, and the downsides (while limited) are completely ignored on one side of the discussion.


In some ways I’m more in favour of a dinghy-style PFD. They give you some chest protection, they are fairly comfortable, you can move and swim in them, and they don’t need to be inflated. But they don’t fulfil the rules!

So I went to register for SailPass, which I’ve done before but only when I’m skippering and therefore will be bound by the RRS, wsivers etc.

I couldn’t see anything about a waiver or risk warning. So from my quick check it looks like Australian Sailing may have made a very significant mistake with this system.

JonE said..

lydia said..
www.coronerscourt.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/847888/MAKIN-findings.pdf

Yeah got to point 4, that was enough. It would be good if we had a repository of these, maybe Laurie could do a safety section.

Been a while since you posted, have you been sailing?

US Sailing did an excellent job in terms of having a repository of MOB drills. They used to give medals out for good recoveries although IIRC John Bond, the ex navy guy who ran it, said that the medal was mainly a motivator to get people to write reports for the repository.

They still have good info, including MOB reports, on their site but the link don’t work - just Google US Sailing Safety Reports. Also Google their Lifesling MOB reports. They are heavily in favour of Lifeslings from their studies, which include practical tests. If I recall correctly, the things that struck me when I last looked at the MOB reports were;

1- bowpeople, who are more at risk, go over surprisingly rarely. That’s not surprising in some ways - we are, after all, gods of the sport and examples of perfection in every way although perhaps I’m a tiny bit biased. But the serious thing is that bowpeople are chosen for their physical ability, often trained for it, in a way that the mid and afterguard often aren’t.

2- Lots of boats get lines around props during recoveries, and it can kill the MOB. When I was a tacker we lost a stick at 3am on a nasty offshore race, the skipper sent two separate teams around the boat to independently look for lines over the side. It was a damn good idea. The other thing is that it’s arguably dodgy to rely on being able to pick someone up under power because your prop may be stuffed;

3- Getting someone back aboard is a major problem. Even if they’re in a PFD, where do you clip a halyard? Will that part of the PFD take the strain? How do you clip onto it? If they are hypothermic, when they are pulled out of the water warm blood moves to the legs so they may not survive - do you have a plan and the gear for that?

Eons ago I did some research on this area with people like Bond. That’s one of the reasons I’m concerned about PFDs - not that they are bad, but that the research indicates that they are only a small part of a complex issue and shouldn’t be promoted as a major part of it.

PS - I just scrolled through the US Sailing Lifesling reports. The first case I stopped at referred to a case where "The crew managed to locate him and get him alongside. They then attempted to lift him aboard with a boathook. However, the boathook pulled his PFD off, he drifted away, and the crew lost sight of him. A Coast Guard helicopter
recovered the body two hours later."

A classic case - ues, he had a PFD. No, it did not save him because the issue is far more complex.

I hadn’t heard about that incident. Very sad

Having read the inquest it seems surprising that it came to the finding that a PFD would likely have averted the sad outcome. Obviously I wasn;t there, but the issue of splash drowning of an exhausted person with heart issues doesn’t seem to have been covered in the report. As John Bond, ex-USN and head of US Sailing’s safety committee - which does excellent work - said to me, if you’re unconscious, all a PFD will do is help them to find your body. It’s very well accepted that if you are exhausted or injured then your body will tend to turn around so that you face the chop, and the splash in your face can and often will lead to fatal inhalation of water.

The major problem of getting someone back aboard was highlighted once more, and one of the things that the concentration on PFDs seems to ignore is that they are, at best, only part of the whole issue of MOB recovery. The problem with the inflatable MOB pole could have been very significant - you can’t even buy a rigid pole in Oz these days and I’m making one because of the known problems with the inflatables.

The coroner found that sailing is a dangerous sport, but how is that defined? To make a logical decision about that would surely require analysis of the number of people who sail; the number of injuries they receive; and how that compares to the accident rate of people who do not sail. Since no one has done that, it’s not (with respect) logical to claim that sailing is dangerous. Yes, sometimes people get hurt and die, as I know very well. But people get hurt and die when driving, when working, when sitting in the bath. The mere fact that some people doing a reasonably popular activity are harmed, while said, is NOT proof that the activity is dangerous.

If one is going to classify sailing as a dangerous sport, then surely merely advising for PFDs isn’t going to really help. If it’s a dangerous sport then we need a proper survey of safety gear, including head protection and MOB kit, and not just the well-worn cry “wear a PFD”. And if it’s a sport then almost by definition it’s physical, and people should assess their fitness and not go out if they have health issues that may contribute to their death as in this sad case. And if it’s a “dangerous” sport then don’t do it unless you have worked at your reflexes and your physical agility and ability.

I’m gunna sound like a cranky old fart, but when I started racing offshore in the ‘70s the physical side of sailing was stressed - how to hold on, how to keep your head down, why you shouldn’t stand up, etc. That doesn’t seem to be taught in the same way these day - instead people are worrying about gear to save you from the consequences of ignoring that stuff. And the fact that we are, on average, older and less fit is being ignored. If you race windsurfers in Europe you need to have a check from your doctor. If you scuba here, you need a check from your doctor. If sailing is a dangerous sport then if we are going to require all sorts of gear then surely we should also require medical checks. The concentration on PFD use, while ignoring health, MOB gear, MOB drills, PFDs with splash covers, head protection etc seems illogical.

I didn’t realise James Glissan was an expert on rescue, although from the couple of times I met him I may vaguely recall that he did some RVCP work. Sounds like he’s done a lot of it.

garymalmgren said..
Ok, surf lifesavers don't wear PDFs. I get that.
But, they also don't wear shirt, jacket, pants, socks, shoes. beanie . and gloves.
I don;t know about the rest of you, but I don's sail with only budgie smugglers in winter.
gary

I’m not saying don’t wear PFDs - I’m saying that in some situations they can be a hindrance. In others they can be a lifesaver.

I can get my wet weather gear off in the water. In some situations you should definitely leave it on, but in other situations I’d like to be able to swim fast and easily and that means not being encumbered.

I’ve read a bunch of accounts where people doing courses were shocked at how hard it is to swim in sailing gear and a PFD. Personally, I wouldn’t like to be at the mercy of the waves and tides like that. So just as one goes for a few swims over winter to make sure you don’t suffer cold water shock (which can easily kill you in your PFD) IMHO one makes sure that you’re OK getting your gear off in the water if you need to.

If we’re going to really prize wearing safety gear, then shouldn’t one ditch the normal kit and wear a thick wettie and full survival kit, plus a full face helmet which protects against boom strikes etc and helps stop splash drowning? So where does one stop?

Yara said..

Chris 249 said..
Yes, the fact that he had no sails ready to go and was towing even one dinghy shows terrible judgement.
On the other hand, from personal experience a good outboard can be an excellent way of powering a boat even in routine and significant offshore use IF the setup is done the right way. It shouldn’t be ruled out as a realistic way of re-powering an older boat. A good outboard well setup would often be far safer than an ageing diesel in poor condition.

Outboard in a well is a good set-up, the rudder can be behind the prop, plus there is a degree of motor swivel available, so good directional control. I sailed my Bluebird 22 offshore and across bars with that system with no problems. On the other hand, even with the correct set up on a transom mounted outboard, I had an embarrassing failure on the Pittwater bar on a fine, windless day, when the lumpy sea lifted the stern out of the water, the engine revved high, the stern dropped, and the prop hit the water and sheared the safety shear pin. Even though I had a spare shear pin, there was no way to fit it on the water. Got a tow back to the ramp, so no real problem, just teasing from my family. Would be different if we were crossing a real bar.

Actually in my 28’er the outboard wasn’t installed in a well but was (IMHO) well installed as in properly installed - sorry for the poor wording. Having a deeply-immersed outboard (ie an ultra long shaft rather than a long shaft) and a system that allows access to the prop and all other parts of the donk are parts of a good installation IMHO. In my case the OB was on a through-transom mount that was installed on traveller tracks. When not being used, it was tilted and then rolled forward so that the powerhead and prop and all in between could easily be worked on because they were actually inside the cockpit. Because the outboard tiller extended into the pushpit area, there was no steering problem under power because you could steer the outboard and rudder at the same time, spinning like a top and actually making sternway.

No system is perfect but an outboard has advantages like being able to clear the prop easily - something that I miss with inboards because I’m a complete clot when it comes to getting lines around props. Oh dear….