cammd said..
It would be a big swim from out the back at wide bay bar or jumpinpin. I think I would rather have a jacket than not.

Btw. I didn't say lifesavers don't train with a buoyancy aid I said they don't rescue without a buoyancy aid.

Why is that, why don't they just duck the person they are saving under waves while swimming them back in rather than let them get pummeled by breakers....We all know why because floating is better than sinking. I stand by my call of BS.

But if I’m crossing a bar alone I’m not rescuing anyone. If you are doing a rescue you use rescue gear, if you’re not then you don’t have to. Simples.

If I end up in the water with my crew on a bar then I’d rather they can do what they do for fun and which they have experience at - which is swimming in the surf without a PFD - than suddenly throw them into a situation they have never done, in which they are doing something that basically no one does - which is swimming in the surf with a PFD.

If it’s BS then tell the technical expert from Surf Life Saving I spoke to that he doesn’t know his own job. If wearing a PFD in the surf is a good idea, then why don’t the life saving authorities promote it at normal surf beaches for normal swimmers?

I’m not telling you or anyone else not to wear a PFD, and I wear one myself quite a bit. What I’m saying is that they can cause problems, that the promotion of them is overly simplified and ignores those problems, and that personally I make sure that I don’t have to rely on one. It seems far, far safer to be able to swim well in surf without a PFD than it is to rely on a PFD keeping you safe. In the same way although I’m in favour of having gear to use in MOB situations, I don’t think it’s a good idea for someone in the water to just act like a passive sack - I want to be able to pull myself back on board in case the Lifesling, stern platform, swimming ladder, halyard and lifting tackle fail. YMMV.

Our fitness and ability to move through the elements is arguably a vital part of being safe, and the rise in old and less fit yachties who rely on passiveness and technology is arguably a major reason why we seem to be seeing so many incidents,

lydia said..
www.coronerscourt.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/847888/MAKIN-findings.pdf

Yeah got to point 4, that was enough. It would be good if we had a repository of these, maybe Laurie could do a safety section.

Been a while since you posted, have you been sailing?

lydia said..
www.coronerscourt.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/847888/MAKIN-findings.pdf

Very sobering reading that report. Although I have never had to do an actual MOB I could picture the stress and difficulty from the practice ones I've done.
I can't recall hearing a tack called a granny gybe in general use. I googled it and it is a valid term, I've just never heard it used as a normal term for a tack. Is it common?

Ahh yes. I recall we used the term a fair bit bringing the TP52 Yendys back from Southport short handed many years ago.
Age and memory!!!

I hadn’t heard about that incident. Very sad

Having read the inquest it seems surprising that it came to the finding that a PFD would likely have averted the sad outcome. Obviously I wasn;t there, but the issue of splash drowning of an exhausted person with heart issues doesn’t seem to have been covered in the report. As John Bond, ex-USN and head of US Sailing’s safety committee - which does excellent work - said to me, if you’re unconscious, all a PFD will do is help them to find your body. It’s very well accepted that if you are exhausted or injured then your body will tend to turn around so that you face the chop, and the splash in your face can and often will lead to fatal inhalation of water.

The major problem of getting someone back aboard was highlighted once more, and one of the things that the concentration on PFDs seems to ignore is that they are, at best, only part of the whole issue of MOB recovery. The problem with the inflatable MOB pole could have been very significant - you can’t even buy a rigid pole in Oz these days and I’m making one because of the known problems with the inflatables.

The coroner found that sailing is a dangerous sport, but how is that defined? To make a logical decision about that would surely require analysis of the number of people who sail; the number of injuries they receive; and how that compares to the accident rate of people who do not sail. Since no one has done that, it’s not (with respect) logical to claim that sailing is dangerous. Yes, sometimes people get hurt and die, as I know very well. But people get hurt and die when driving, when working, when sitting in the bath. The mere fact that some people doing a reasonably popular activity are harmed, while said, is NOT proof that the activity is dangerous.

If one is going to classify sailing as a dangerous sport, then surely merely advising for PFDs isn’t going to really help. If it’s a dangerous sport then we need a proper survey of safety gear, including head protection and MOB kit, and not just the well-worn cry “wear a PFD”. And if it’s a sport then almost by definition it’s physical, and people should assess their fitness and not go out if they have health issues that may contribute to their death as in this sad case. And if it’s a “dangerous” sport then don’t do it unless you have worked at your reflexes and your physical agility and ability.

I’m gunna sound like a cranky old fart, but when I started racing offshore in the ‘70s the physical side of sailing was stressed - how to hold on, how to keep your head down, why you shouldn’t stand up, etc. That doesn’t seem to be taught in the same way these day - instead people are worrying about gear to save you from the consequences of ignoring that stuff. And the fact that we are, on average, older and less fit is being ignored. If you race windsurfers in Europe you need to have a check from your doctor. If you scuba here, you need a check from your doctor. If sailing is a dangerous sport then if we are going to require all sorts of gear then surely we should also require medical checks. The concentration on PFD use, while ignoring health, MOB gear, MOB drills, PFDs with splash covers, head protection etc seems illogical.

I didn’t realise James Glissan was an expert on rescue, although from the couple of times I met him I may vaguely recall that he did some RVCP work. Sounds like he’s done a lot of it.

JonE said..

lydia said..
www.coronerscourt.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/847888/MAKIN-findings.pdf

Yeah got to point 4, that was enough. It would be good if we had a repository of these, maybe Laurie could do a safety section.

Been a while since you posted, have you been sailing?

US Sailing did an excellent job in terms of having a repository of MOB drills. They used to give medals out for good recoveries although IIRC John Bond, the ex navy guy who ran it, said that the medal was mainly a motivator to get people to write reports for the repository.

They still have good info, including MOB reports, on their site but the link don’t work - just Google US Sailing Safety Reports. Also Google their Lifesling MOB reports. They are heavily in favour of Lifeslings from their studies, which include practical tests. If I recall correctly, the things that struck me when I last looked at the MOB reports were;

1- bowpeople, who are more at risk, go over surprisingly rarely. That’s not surprising in some ways - we are, after all, gods of the sport and examples of perfection in every way although perhaps I’m a tiny bit biased. But the serious thing is that bowpeople are chosen for their physical ability, often trained for it, in a way that the mid and afterguard often aren’t.

2- Lots of boats get lines around props during recoveries, and it can kill the MOB. When I was a tacker we lost a stick at 3am on a nasty offshore race, the skipper sent two separate teams around the boat to independently look for lines over the side. It was a damn good idea. The other thing is that it’s arguably dodgy to rely on being able to pick someone up under power because your prop may be stuffed;

3- Getting someone back aboard is a major problem. Even if they’re in a PFD, where do you clip a halyard? Will that part of the PFD take the strain? How do you clip onto it? If they are hypothermic, when they are pulled out of the water warm blood moves to the legs so they may not survive - do you have a plan and the gear for that?

Eons ago I did some research on this area with people like Bond. That’s one of the reasons I’m concerned about PFDs - not that they are bad, but that the research indicates that they are only a small part of a complex issue and shouldn’t be promoted as a major part of it.

PS - I just scrolled through the US Sailing Lifesling reports. The first case I stopped at referred to a case where "The crew managed to locate him and get him alongside. They then attempted to lift him aboard with a boathook. However, the boathook pulled his PFD off, he drifted away, and the crew lost sight of him. A Coast Guard helicopter
recovered the body two hours later."

A classic case - ues, he had a PFD. No, it did not save him because the issue is far more complex.

I tried reading it - seemed like someone forgot to read the bit in the sailing instructions where it says that it is the responsibility of skippers to race. Maybe we should amend it to say "all sailors".

Bugger people who sue.

Relevant afternoon from another boat.

MorningBird said..

lydia said..
www.coronerscourt.qld.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/847888/MAKIN-findings.pdf

Very sobering reading that report. Although I have never had to do an actual MOB I could picture the stress and difficulty from the practice ones I've done.
I can't recall hearing a tack called a granny gybe in general use. I googled it and it is a valid term, I've just never heard it used as a normal term for a tack. Is it common?

Grannying is very common in dinghy racing. It's the girly way to avoid taking a swim from a badly executed gybe. In Finns and other single handed sailing dinghies it is generally accepted that it is just as quick to gybe, capsize and recover and continue compared to grannying. But sailing in a winter series in a strong breeze I would prefer to granny!

A few years ago, US Sailing did a report after a series of MOBs (some fatal)
Most dangerous postion on a boat?
Having a piss off the stern particularly at night by off watch crew coming on deck.
Hence boat rule, if you can't swim back to the boat , use the head.😎

So I went to register for SailPass, which I’ve done before but only when I’m skippering and therefore will be bound by the RRS, wsivers etc.

I couldn’t see anything about a waiver or risk warning. So from my quick check it looks like Australian Sailing may have made a very significant mistake with this system.

Just sent to me by another member….

ballinanewsdaily.com.au/2026/05/yamba-to-ballina-bar/

This thread is going sideways

Now on front page of SMH !

If the vessel that was being rescued was impounded instead of being moved on none of those lives would have been lost.