Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...

737 max

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Created by southace A week ago, 13 Mar 2019
southace
QLD, 3929 posts
13 Mar 2019 9:43PM
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intresing a analistest said tonight on abc the engines are extra large and the computer systems are trying to push the nose down to maintain flight. Sounds like they need to tweak the vertical stabliser programming to cope with the bigger engines! It's a shame it took away so many lives to work this out. I'm glad I fly Airbus most of the time. A380 and A350 sales are going to thrive now. Rip.

sn
WA, 2521 posts
13 Mar 2019 10:32PM
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southace said..
intresing a analistest said tonight on abc the engines are extra large and the computer systems are trying to push the nose down to maintain flight. Sounds like they need to tweak the vertical stabliser programming to cope with the bigger engines! It's a shame it took away so many lives to work this out. I'm glad I fly Airbus most of the time. A380 and A350 sales are going to thrive now. Rip.


didn't they stop production of the A380's recently??

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2277 posts
14 Mar 2019 8:18AM
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Even in aviation, it's the market that talks. The flying public killed the A380 (and the billions of worldwide infrastructure investment to support this aircraft) because it wasn't what they wanted; the DC-10 with the public perception of it's dodgy structure; and the Comet again with dodgy structure (and with the Comet, arguably the whole British commercial aviation manufacturing industry). Now imagine if the flying public refuses to step aboard a 737; arguably one of the most used commercial aircraft in history. Now that is a commercial disaster

psychomub
150 posts
14 Mar 2019 6:32AM
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Paddles B'mere said..
Even in aviation, it's the market that talks. The flying public killed the A380 (and the billions of worldwide infrastructure investment to support this aircraft) because it wasn't what they wanted; the DC-10 with the public perception of it's dodgy structure; and the Comet again with dodgy structure (and with the Comet, arguably the whole British commercial aviation manufacturing industry). Now imagine if the flying public refuses to step aboard a 737; arguably one of the most used commercial aircraft in history. Now that is a commercial disaster


Ugh, I don't think you are right.

The A380 is loved by pilots and passengers, but hated by accountants. They have to fly almost full to make money - unless you are a ME airline that gets free fuel.

Chris6791
WA, 3116 posts
14 Mar 2019 6:44AM
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Most people don't know if they're getting on an Airbus or Boeing, they're sure as **** not going to know the difference between an older 737 or a newer MAX without help from the media.

Wouldn't it need to be the horizontal stabiliser that controls pitch, not the vertical? I'm guessing Boeing would have countered the extra thrust by moving the wings rearwards a little, or by some other means if it needed it (maybe seat the fatties at the front). Controlling through trim would just add extra drag and fuel consumption.

FormulaNova
NSW, 8052 posts
14 Mar 2019 10:15AM
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Chris6791 said..
Most people don't know if they're getting on an Airbus or Boeing, they're sure as **** not going to know the difference between an older 737 or a newer MAX without help from the media.

Wouldn't it need to be the horizontal stabiliser that controls pitch, not the vertical? I'm guessing Boeing would have countered the extra thrust by moving the wings rearwards a little, or by some other means if it needed it (maybe seat the fatties at the front). Controlling through trim would just add extra drag and fuel consumption.


I think there will certainly be a few people checking their flight information to make sure its not a 737 Max!

I guess Boeing will be running around right now trying to figure out what happened, which is probably going to be hard without exact information of what the plane was doing at the time. I think these avionics systems are getting incredibly complex.

Was it an A380 that Qantas had an incident where some sensor was telling some other system that it was in a different orientation, so the plane kept trying to correct the pilots inputs even though it was being flown manually? Perhaps they need to develop a system that keeps much more information in the black box recorders to cope with the large amount of information these systems use now?

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2277 posts
14 Mar 2019 9:27AM
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@psychomub, I believe that the A380 was designed as part of an air transport "system/strategy" that used the big plane for hub to hub movements and then passengers transferred to smaller planes to go from the hub to their final destination. It seems the flying public hated transferring from plane to plane and preferred to fly direct with less stops and so the "system" was unviable. So it's not about the market not liking the plane, it's about the plane being specifically designed for a strategy that wasn't embraced by the market. Accountants hate anything that's unviable

What will be interesting to see is whether the same flying public will end up embracing direct long haul flights (like these new generation aircraft can make) and getting off at the other end feeling like a bag of sh!t or whether they will wish they'd stopped in Dubai on an A380 like the good old days. Qantas have been in the press saying they're putting a lot of effort into researching how to make people cope with long haul flights and get off fresher at the other end.

Edit: i see that Boeing are now recommending that the global 737 Max fleet be grounded ................. a public relations disaster ............... the financial losses to both manufacturer and airlines will be massive

Macroscien
QLD, 4597 posts
14 Mar 2019 9:34AM
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What surprise me the most is lack of any video surveillance in pilots cabin in latest planes.
There is hidden camera in every passenger entertainment system .
Planes crashes do not happen very often but when they do, this video recording from pilots cabin could have more clues then the rest of black orange box recordings.
With 4k GoPro video behind pilots back installed we could see all instruments reading, position, action taken by pilot or autopilot, even flight attendant serving pilots ( a coffee).
I would ground ALL AIRPLANES instantly that don't have surveillance cameras in pilots cabin. BTW similar story is developing on International Space Station where Russian decided to install camera just now to discover who may be drilling holes in their cosmic modules.

dmitri
VIC, 1039 posts
14 Mar 2019 10:40AM
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Speaking of A380....just waaaay too many ppl on board to serve..
Takes ages before they bring a food, then the food gets cold before they bring a glass of wine
Flew once..never again !

rod_bunny
WA, 1055 posts
14 Mar 2019 7:44AM
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Paddles B'mere said..
... direct long haul flights (like these new generation aircraft can make) and getting off at the other end feeling like a bag of sh!t or whether they will wish they'd stopped in Dubai on an A380 like the good old days.




Haven't done the direct PER-LHR yet... but doing the whole security, bag check, corralling, sitting doing nothing, finding next gate, running to gate cause last flight delayed, keeping kids entertained, etc etc etc once is fine by me.

You feel like ****e getting off any flight these days.. so,
Get on. Bourbon & coke + sleep pill, get off in London - yes please. (The kids don't really like bourbon, but what are you gonna do eh )

quikdrawMcgraw
954 posts
14 Mar 2019 9:07AM
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FormulaNova said..

Chris6791 said..
Most people don't know if they're getting on an Airbus or Boeing, they're sure as **** not going to know the difference between an older 737 or a newer MAX without help from the media.

Wouldn't it need to be the horizontal stabiliser that controls pitch, not the vertical? I'm guessing Boeing would have countered the extra thrust by moving the wings rearwards a little, or by some other means if it needed it (maybe seat the fatties at the front). Controlling through trim would just add extra drag and fuel consumption.



I think there will certainly be a few people checking their flight information to make sure its not a 737 Max!

I guess Boeing will be running around right now trying to figure out what happened, which is probably going to be hard without exact information of what the plane was doing at the time. I think these avionics systems are getting incredibly complex.

Was it an A380 that Qantas had an incident where some sensor was telling some other system that it was in a different orientation, so the plane kept trying to correct the pilots inputs even though it was being flown manually? Perhaps they need to develop a system that keeps much more information in the black box recorders to cope with the large amount of information these systems use now?


That's it, if they didnt know their Boeing's from their airbus's they prob look into it now

quikdrawMcgraw
954 posts
14 Mar 2019 9:12AM
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rod_bunny said..

Paddles B'mere said..
... direct long haul flights (like these new generation aircraft can make) and getting off at the other end feeling like a bag of sh!t or whether they will wish they'd stopped in Dubai on an A380 like the good old days.





Haven't done the direct PER-LHR yet... but doing the whole security, bag check, corralling, sitting doing nothing, finding next gate, running to gate cause last flight delayed, keeping kids entertained, etc etc etc once is fine by me.

You feel like ****e getting off any flight these days.. so,
Get on. Bourbon & coke + sleep pill, get off in London - yes please. (The kids don't really like bourbon, but what are you gonna do eh )


Not only the airport chaos but the ascent/descent messes with my noggin my sinuses specifically I basically get vertigo, I did a 3-flight shuffle back from Vietnam recently and my head was spinning mainly from 3 ascents and descents

FormulaNova
NSW, 8052 posts
14 Mar 2019 12:18PM
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rod_bunny said..

Paddles B'mere said..
... direct long haul flights (like these new generation aircraft can make) and getting off at the other end feeling like a bag of sh!t or whether they will wish they'd stopped in Dubai on an A380 like the good old days.





Haven't done the direct PER-LHR yet... but doing the whole security, bag check, corralling, sitting doing nothing, finding next gate, running to gate cause last flight delayed, keeping kids entertained, etc etc etc once is fine by me.

You feel like ****e getting off any flight these days.. so,
Get on. Bourbon & coke + sleep pill, get off in London - yes please. (The kids don't really like bourbon, but what are you gonna do eh )


This year for the first time, I had time to have a day break in Dubai between flights. Its a great way to break up the trip and get used to the timezone change a little better. Some hotels make it easier by allowing a 24 hours check-in and charging, so you only have to pay for a day.

I much preferred that to going to whole way with only a short transit in the airport, but I guess it probably comes down to time and money. if I had the choice between the two for the same price, I would take the day break.

A380s are awesome. It almost made me think I wasted my money on noise cancelling headphones. Its a bit weird in a way as you are used to not being able to hear other people's conversations, but on A380 you can.

airsail
QLD, 306 posts
14 Mar 2019 6:09PM
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The A380 is a dead duck. No more orders so the production line will close. Too expensive to run, not enough flying for an engine manufacturer to build an upgraded engine. Can't be onsold to second level operators as no one want them.
They can't be turned into freighters as the centre deck is structural and can't be removed.
Not enough range to compete with the 787/A350 or the 777X. Too hard to fill all the seats so often they fly half full.
QF can fly 2 x 787's cheaper than 1 x A380. I don't think Airbus ever made a profit from any A380, cost more to build than they could be sold for.
Some are already parked in the scrap yard.

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2277 posts
14 Mar 2019 6:22PM
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Yep, the entire A380 concept/strategy has turned out to be a bit of a commercial failure and it's the consumers that have made it happen. I believe the first two redundant A380's are parked up in the south of France, with the engines returned to their owners, after their lease to Singapore Airlines expired. Even if you push the aircraft R&D and manufacturing costs to one side, the infrastructure spend for the airports that had to upgrade just to accept this aircraft were massive. Given how fickle the market can be, it'll be real interesting to see what happens with Boeing and these 737 Max planes.

southace
QLD, 3929 posts
14 Mar 2019 6:29PM
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I'm going Singapore airlines to the uk this year, they use A350 Adelaide to Singapore and A380 Singapore to Heathrow, last year I went maylaysaisa Adelaide to KL grubby old A330 and a brand new A350 KL to Heathrow. Previous year maylaysaisa was using the A380 KL to Heathrow, I did see a few maylaysaisa A380s sitting around not in use at KL airport. I think Singapore has it worked out . Never fly maylaysaisa again. Both A380 and A350 have 99% flight safety records.

warwickl
NSW, 1114 posts
14 Mar 2019 7:32PM
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I guessing some of my shims were not used-
My experience is if in doubt shim it.

Harrow
NSW, 2546 posts
14 Mar 2019 8:08PM
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Love the 380. Always choose it if I have an option.

southace
QLD, 3929 posts
14 Mar 2019 7:34PM
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Jumbo jet 50 years in the sky is on sbs 2100 hrs , haha the sales team are onto it now!

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2277 posts
14 Mar 2019 7:53PM
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^^^ Bwahaha, that's brilliant, they're onto it already

Kamikuza
QLD, 3702 posts
15 Mar 2019 7:14AM
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Flew A350 Qantas from Japan to Sydney, then 380 Katar to NZ.

Was surprised how fast boarding and baggage collection was... passport control was woeful but they had three counters only...!

Way more legroom in the 380.

Dawn Patrol
WA, 1977 posts
15 Mar 2019 3:47PM
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Macroscien said..
With 4k GoPro video behind pilots back installed we could see all instruments reading, position, action taken by pilot or autopilot, even flight attendant serving pilots ( a coffee).


You mean all the things a black box does, while usually surviving a plane crash?
Not sure any planes have surveillance in the cockpit...?

lotofwind
NSW, 4944 posts
15 Mar 2019 6:56PM
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Maybe they should build the whole plane out of the same material they build the black box out of.

quikdrawMcgraw
954 posts
Monday , 18 Mar 2019 3:27PM
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With so much attention on nz havnt heard much about these poor souls lately

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2277 posts
Monday , 18 Mar 2019 6:44PM
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Last I saw was that Boeing have recommended the worldwide fleet of 737 Max be grounded pending investigation and they have also stopped delivering any aircraft from the factory, however they are still manufacturing at 42 planes per month and will store them until they get to the bottom of the issue. 11% or US$26b drop on the share market plus the costs of financing all of the delayed revenue from planes not being delivered (and paid for). On top of this, affected airlines will no doubt be pursuing damages as well, it's a commercial nightmare for Boeing but they're a huge company with massive market share (considering they've gobbled up most of their competitors). It does make you wonder if they could have done more after the Lion Air crash and potentially avoided this?

Pugwash
WA, 5760 posts
Monday , 18 Mar 2019 8:13PM
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I liked the A380 as well... 3 ft wide seats, big TVs, layflat beds... never saw the economy seats though

Harrow
NSW, 2546 posts
Tuesday , 19 Mar 2019 10:20AM
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Dawn Patrol said..

Macroscien said..
With 4k GoPro video behind pilots back installed we could see all instruments reading, position, action taken by pilot or autopilot, even flight attendant serving pilots ( a coffee).

You mean all the things a black box does, while usually surviving a plane crash?
Not sure any planes have surveillance in the cockpit...?


The cameras don't need to survive the crash. The video data is sent to the black box. You'd have footage until the moment of impact.

Chris6791
WA, 3116 posts
Tuesday , 19 Mar 2019 9:17AM
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I think if they built in more data storage capacity it would be better allocated to more data/sensor channels than cockpit video. Video isn't going to tell you why the widget gave a faulty reading and why the computers flying the plane took that faulty info and ploughed the plane into the ground.

Its bad bad enough for the crash investigators that have to listen to the CVR, I don't think they need to watch useless video as well.

FormulaNova
NSW, 8052 posts
Tuesday , 19 Mar 2019 1:03PM
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Harrow said..

Dawn Patrol said..


Macroscien said..
With 4k GoPro video behind pilots back installed we could see all instruments reading, position, action taken by pilot or autopilot, even flight attendant serving pilots ( a coffee).


You mean all the things a black box does, while usually surviving a plane crash?
Not sure any planes have surveillance in the cockpit...?



The cameras don't need to survive the crash. The video data is sent to the black box. You'd have footage until the moment of impact.


I think the implication is that adding storage for this is probably harder than you expect.

When you look at the fact that these things survive, mostly with the data intact, yet everything else in the plane is reduced to tiny bits of debris, it suggests that the engineering to do this reliably is not trivial.

Sure, you could add some flash memory and hope it survives, but is it that easy?

Paddles B'mere
QLD, 2277 posts
Tuesday , 19 Mar 2019 7:31PM
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I'd be surprised if a lot of systems data isn't transmitted in real time via satellite directly to aircraft and engine manufacturers these days.

FormulaNova
NSW, 8052 posts
Tuesday , 19 Mar 2019 8:58PM
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Paddles B'mere said..
I'd be surprised if a lot of systems data isn't transmitted in real time via satellite directly to aircraft and engine manufacturers these days.


I would be. Satellite bandwidth is relatively expensive and for engine functions they probably don't care too much about indepth realtime stats.



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Forums > General Discussion   Shooting the breeze...


"737 max" started by southace