Avoiding collisions

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nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
12 Jan 2006 8:00pm
Hi,

This topic has probably been done to death, but I'd appreciate what you guys think.

Last sunday at the train I was pottering along on my windsurfer, minding my own business, doing the whole "Person on starboard tack goes upwind" passing routine with anyone who looked like they were going to come close to me. All well and good, I passed about 20 guys like this.

Then some windsurfer on the starboard tack decided that he was going to bear off, just as I was busy bearing off (I was on port). We got closer and closer, before I frantically turned upwind, backwinded the sail and just about stopped dead. He didn't back off one little bit, just blasted past me.

I always thought that on flat water you do the whole nautical thing, which is that starboard goes upwind. Another rule with the same result is that you pass with your red light (on the left of your boat) pointing at the other ship, that's a very standard nautical rule, it's been around for ages.

I've had the same thing happen to me when coming towards a kiter, I was on port and he was on starboard, he bore off after I had started to bear off, same result -- I stopped dead and he blasted past.

Is there something you can shout to show you're bearing off? "PORT!"?? "GO UPWIND!"?? "STOP BEARING OFF YOU TWAT!"??

Or maybe "GET A WHITE CANE!"
leski
leski
NSW
661 posts
NSW, 661 posts
12 Jan 2006 11:34pm
simple Nebbian don't bear away. You are right but
if the guy opposite to you is bearing away chances are he want to go somewhere down wind, so just keep going straight.
It's only when you are both going upwind that you let the guy on starboard go pass upwind of you.
To make it easy just let the guy on starboard go where ever he wants.

Besides the kitesurfer was maybe being polite as they may go downwind of incoming windsurfers not to bother them with the lines.
good luck
elmo
elmo
WA
8894 posts
WA, 8894 posts
12 Jan 2006 8:40pm
If you are both trying to battle up wind I try to make eye contact with other party then point to myself and point where I'm going, it's easier if you bear of as well and that way you both don't battle to go upwind and end up in each others face.

Don't forget to give them a big wave and smile as you go by and you'll have generated some good karma which does come back to you

Alby
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
12 Jan 2006 9:18pm
I agree with Leski, interpret the rule as "Starboard has right of way"
The trouble occurs when you get in the wave zone, then everybody seems to have their own ideas, some wave sites have "local rules/etiquette", it's best to find out from a local what's going on.
kitecrazzzy
kitecrazzzy
WA
2184 posts
WA, 2184 posts
12 Jan 2006 10:03pm
if you think that the other guy/girl doesn't know the rules, start being vocal and when they do the right thing give them a smile

5 main rules (sailing)
1. right foot forward has right of way over left foot forward
2. upwind guy gives way to downwind if your both on the same tack (going in the same direction)
3. give time, space and opportunity for the other vessel to adhere
4. tell the other guy what you intend to do if there's a stalemate (highly unlikely to happen as the downwind guy will be copping a lot of spray)
5. avoid a collision
the rules are for sailing but they can still be applied easily
Haircut
Haircut
QLD
6491 posts
QLD, 6491 posts
13 Jan 2006 8:58am
General hot tips for sailing at the train are:

1. there are no rules
2. keep well away from sailors wearing floppy hats
3. keep well away from sailors wearing any form of glasses
4. keep well clear of sailors wearing float coats
5. keep well clear of sailors over the age of 50
6. give a wide berth to anyone who looks like they weigh over 100kg
7. keep a good eye on any folk wearing a GPS
8. steer well clear of people who take more than 2 hours to wash and de-rig - both on and off the water

so that basically means to keep clear of everyone

oh, and admire anyone who has no hair
mkseven
mkseven
QLD
2315 posts
QLD, 2315 posts
13 Jan 2006 9:08am
nebbian, maybe you are still a bit jittery since you are new to the sport maybe not. Believe that 95% of sailers dont know starboard rules, everyday convention has pretty much been 1 points upwind, the other tries to outpoint the first until someone gives up kinda upwind chicken... stupid but it works.

The one area I dont like starboard rules is kites, they are not craft designed for antiquated rules. Maybe kite was being nice and allowing you to go upwind so you dont have to clear his lines.

When it starts to get crowded I tend to use alot of hand signals, indicating whether I am going upwind/downwind, intention to turn around or this is what I think of you
ju_724
ju_724
231 posts
231 posts
13 Jan 2006 10:47am
is dutch inn. cott a starboard / port rule???? or heading out into the waves has wright of way?????
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
13 Jan 2006 11:18am
Thanks for the replies, but hmmm... still not much more educated than before. Either that or everyone just plays chicken

I think I'll just have to go with the flow a bit more, sit down into a lotus position and chant "Om Mani Padme Hummm" a couple of times before going out. Then once my crown chakra is nicely dilated I'll just feel through intuition or telepathy which way the other guy wants to go.

If everyone on the water was a programmer like me we'd have a simple set of rules that everyone followed, all the time, no-one would have to think about it, and no-one would come close to an accident... but then if everyone was a programmer it would be a pretty boring sport
leski
leski
NSW
661 posts
NSW, 661 posts
13 Jan 2006 2:28pm
"Starboard has right of way" as Decrep said is the best way of interpreting this rule one the water. (So Nebbian, that should be easy to program no?)

As for Dutchies, it is hardly a wave spot as such, but if there are breaking waves then yeah you should give right of way to a windsurfer going out.
This is a very simple rule to understand I think, as it is easier to come back to the shore with a wave pushing you than having to face it going out.
grumplestiltskin
grumplestiltskin
WA
2331 posts
WA, 2331 posts
13 Jan 2006 12:05pm
Neb, you dork, if everyone was a programmer we would have absolute chaos

witness the world wide web for instance.

Do a google search for programming languages.

Jeezus if there was one simple set of rules and guidelines for programmers to follow then ALL applications would work without any hiccups.

They even have different committee's to decide on which committee's rules to follow.

The only standard is that NOTHING IS STANDARD.




ahhhh, I feel better now
btw I work in IT if you couldn't tell.
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
13 Jan 2006 1:09pm
Grumple:

"Starboard has right of way", all well and good, but which way do you turn to give way? Grrrr! Might be making mountains out of molehills here, so I'll just shut up until I hit someone...


I just had an idea!!

Next time I'm at the train I'll wear a big floppy hat, some blueeye sunnies, a life vest, and strap a GPS to my arm... then everyone will stay out of MY way! YEEHAA!!! [}:)]
ju_724
ju_724
231 posts
231 posts
13 Jan 2006 2:24pm
Mr Nebbs

The way it works with all sailing vesells is - if you are on the starboard tack, then hold your course. It is Mr Port tack's decision to either bear away/head up/ and KEEP out of YOUR way.

Unfortunatley, as mentioned before, very few windsurfers know this rule, and everyone seems to head into the wind so they don't loose ground. Just be weary of oncoming traffic and if it looks like there pointing high into the wind, bear off round the back of them - you loose a bit of ground but it's much better than a head on collision
westozwind
westozwind
WA
1419 posts
WA, 1419 posts
13 Jan 2006 2:25pm
Nebbian,
Starboard has right of way, you do not have to, or should not alter your course. The sailor on Port has to take nessesay evasive action to avoid you if you maintain your current course (heading,direction).
Check out
http://www.windsurfingperth.com.au/tips/water-rules.html
These rules are used maily to sort out disputes when racing but should be exercised at all times when on the water.
Wave sailing is a different kettle of fish. There are general guidelines that may not apply in some locations due to conditions or local law. Always best to check the the locals if you are new to a location. It also does not hurt to check out the locals on the water first as well to see where and how they sail.
Remember that all your fellow sailors may not know the rules and it's better to keep and eye out and avoid collisions.
There's no point in being in the right if a collision occurs and you get injured and miss the rest of the season
westozwind
westozwind
WA
1419 posts
WA, 1419 posts
13 Jan 2006 2:27pm
Hey ju_724, great minds think alike... posted 20 secs apart
Haircut
Haircut
QLD
6491 posts
QLD, 6491 posts
13 Jan 2006 5:42pm
actually, at the train (taking last weekends southerly wind as an example), most folk will give whoever is closest to the sandbar right of way. Most are aware of the starboard rule but certainly won't make you give way if your on port tack and closer to the sandbar (upwind) than they are, providing your not head to head coming straight at each other. However there are the exceptions who want the sandbar no matter what.

one good thing about gps frenzy is that most of the guys who were once point-upwind-aholics and would always try to outpoint anyone, are now bearing away downwind alot because they are trying to clock their best speeds, in turn freeing up the sandbar spot for slower folk like me. In fact I can almost have it all to myself these days coz most of the guys are into the gps thing, and i'm one of a very few who can tack. So gps is not all bad however where once upon a time you tried to stay downwind of the point-a-holics so you didn't get wiped out, now staying downwind is just as risky because u got to keep an eye out for the gps wearer suddenly bearing downwind on you and wiping you out as they go for their all time record, so you can't win either way.

not sure whats worse to have upwind of you, a kite or a gps-a-holic?!

just so the non-Trainers can appreciate where Nebs coming from, the run at Train during a southerly is about 700 metres in length and for about 300 metres of it, maybe 20 to 30 metres wide. On a weekend with wind in summer you get about 30 windsurfers packed into this puddle at once, and usually a few kites mixed in, plus jetboats, jetskis, seaplanes, and fishermen, all making use of it. It is southports equivalent to Currumbin creek where 15 to 30 kiters manage to pack themselves into an area the size of two soccer fields end to end. There's not much sailable flat water on the goldcoast that isn't tide affected.
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
13 Jan 2006 4:19pm
Hey Haircut,

That clarified things a lot. I sort of picked up on the "He who has the balls to sail closest to the sandbar wins" rule, I'm a bit chicken to go too close because in the middle of the bar is a shallow section that did its best to rip my fin off a couple of sessions ago

OK I'll shut my eyes to other sailors when on starboard, and sail close to the bar when on port. Problem solved
Haircut
Haircut
QLD
6491 posts
QLD, 6491 posts
13 Jan 2006 6:38pm
Hey Nebbian. The shallow bits have probably snatched a few fins over the years. The worst would be on a NE running down the other side of the sand island when the sun's reflecting off the water mid to late afternnoon, and you can't judge the depth.

On a couple of occasions at high tide on a windy southerly where I've been able to sail straight out accross the sand island on a waveboard with tiny fin, I've had a few guys following me (obviously not locals) and they came to very abrupt stops once they hit the island not realising it was only a foot deep. There used to be a sign there but the pole rusted and now all thats left is a dangerous rusted 2 foot length poking out of the sand.

In the 4.5 years of sailing there the things I've seen floating in the water include; a submerged big green bin floating just under the surface, shopping trolley near the car park, submerged wooden forklif type pellette floating just under the surface, a log after we had the cyclone further north, marajuana leaves, your common crabpots, a paint roller on a brrom handle, womans handbags, lots of caps, and a zillion shopping bags (shopping bags soon seperate the boys from the men ) There's this unspoken law at the train, if you hit a shopping bag and and it makes you crash then you are a girlyskirt, and if you hit a shopping bag and manage keep going then your a real man

p.s. anyone learning some freestyle stuff has complete immunity to all rules and laws o.k?!
junior freestyle
junior freestyle
QLD
546 posts
QLD, 546 posts
13 Jan 2006 9:55pm
yer if u see guys totaly out of control sliding bakwards i would move or mabey if they are getting huge air and comin strait for u MOVE freestylers have rights
JF
fish
fish
WA
155 posts
WA, 155 posts
13 Jan 2006 8:32pm
how the hell can a freestyler get 'huge' air at the train JF?
and another person to keep clear of is that stiffy cliffy dude!
Haircut
Haircut
QLD
6491 posts
QLD, 6491 posts
14 Jan 2006 7:47am
quote:
Originally posted by fish

how the hell can a freestyler get 'huge' air at the train JF?

cruisers make better waves than you find out in the goldcoast surf (joke - sort of)

how do you know Cliffy?!
ju_724
ju_724
231 posts
231 posts
14 Jan 2006 2:25pm
defo best to ask the locals first??????,

at sandpoint VIC probably one of the top speed sailing venues in the world, where you could get 50+ windsurfers trying to get as close to the sandbar as possible for clean, glassy water to get top speeds out of their planks....-

i think i was told the rule was imagine you are driving a right-hand drive car - which made bugger all sensce to me maybe someone can correct me on that one....

i had a few close shaves there but never a head on collision, thank f**k, ( as the impact speed would have been somewhere between 40 - 60 knts) ouch
lauriew
lauriew
WA
53 posts
WA, 53 posts
14 Jan 2006 3:00pm
I agree with the chicken rule. I've been sailing boats and windsurfers for 15 years and there is no port starboard rule for windsurfing. He who points highest wins the ground. Make your effort of pointing high strong early on and most people will back down before you get 50m apart.

L
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