Property prices and stuff

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evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
5 Apr 2011 8:06pm
Mobydisc[/br]
Rents in Sydney are so high and they are the reason why real estate prices will not drop. Why would a place renting for $400 or $500 a week suddenly drop in value to $150K to $300K? If they did people would buy them and get positive gearing on them. Buy 10 and don't work any more. Prices would go back up very quickly.


This. It's similar in Brisbane and even worse in Canberra. Looks like there is a glut of unit in Melbourne.

To reiterate Moby's point: buying well never be (much) cheaper than renting.

See here:
www.news.com.au/finance/real-estate/cowboy-landlords-squeezing-tenants/news-story/04e8b82e23e7d5c27e6b70968be724f4

PS If anyone has an available, furnished, 1brm unit in Melbourne within walking distance to RMIT, circa $350 send me a message. I'm starting work there next week.
dirtyharry
dirtyharry
WA
444 posts
WA, 444 posts
5 Apr 2011 8:01pm
evlPanda said...

Mobydisc[/br]
Rents in Sydney are so high and they are the reason why real estate prices will not drop. Why would a place renting for $400 or $500 a week suddenly drop in value to $150K to $300K?



This. buying well never be (much) cheaper than renting.



When I moved out of the place I was renting in Sydney 12 months ago we were paying $435/week. It sold at auction for $850k. So I reckon prices could fall a looong way before buying was anywhere near as cheap as renting (bearing in mind the return of $435/week they were getting on that property is the gross return - the owner still had to pay out council rates, insurance, repairs & maintenance etc.). Mobysdiscs theoretical example was a touch on the extreme side and probably misses the point that there's some significant back-tracking that can occur in prices before buying is anywhere near the price of renting..


Mobydisc
Mobydisc
NSW
9029 posts
NSW, 9029 posts
5 Apr 2011 11:16pm
If you are renting a place for $435 a week that sold for $850K then thats a great deal. No way would I buy that place. The house I bought last year for $320K we rent out for $410 a week.

Its a risk buying the place but I figure there were not many other places close to the water with water views close to Sydney for under $500k so its worth the risk.

Sailhack
Sailhack
VIC
5000 posts
VIC, 5000 posts
6 Apr 2011 9:04am
NasiGoreng said...

You have to think outside the box a little,

I went rural and just bought a BIG 1 bed unit for $107k.

* 25 mins from the bay
* 50 mins to Bells beach
* and commutable distance to work in Melb CBD

Unit is massive, modern, freshly renowed, new kitchen, huge yard and I sometimes get koalas come visit.
Been there 4 weeks now, and know half the town already.
Only place Ive ever lived where you dont have to lock your car/ house!!

Home Loan balance is 1.2 years wages....

Im 34.

RESULT?....



Nasi's onto it...the inflated price of property in the Aus cities is offset by the reasonable costs of property in the country (using Vic as an example). You can still buy a neat 3-bed W/B house within 30mins drive of a non-capital city in the country for <$100k! $100-$200k will get you a nice home on a few acres, and $200-$300k will get you a modern B/V 4 bed with a swimming pool (might be exaggerating there, but I reckon if you looked hard enough...). An average price for a 3-bed home in town here is only about $240k, and from memory we also have the highest income per capita in the state.

Sorry, but whilst the prices may drop slightly in expensive areas, the 'bubble' will remain because of the increasing value in country property, it's also a supply/demand situation. Ask any Real Estate agent, they'll have a list of investors ready to pounce on land/houses that are slightly lower priced than the market price.

Whilst the WA mining companies (and capital-city based companies everywhere else) are paying inflated wages, the housing market in these areas will remain inflated. Also, why would a battler sell his $1m home that he bought 25 years ago for $80k if he wasn't offered top dollar?
petermac33
petermac33
WA
6415 posts
WA, 6415 posts
6 Apr 2011 7:30am
if petrol reaches $200 a barrel,the price of housing has to drop.

if the stockmarket were to crash,people would lose much of their savings,superannuation.

the price of food is influenced a great deal by the oil price.

food prices are already going through the roof [$55 a kilo for ginger at I.G.A] so if

price of oil continues to climb,pushing up price of food,where is the money going to

come from to buy overpriced housing?

some time back i said on this forum,buy gold or silver,especially silver.

was around $15 U.S an ounce then,now close to $39.

so sell your house asap,rent and then buy a property when in a couple of years they will be half the price they are now.



log man
log man
VIC
8289 posts
VIC, 8289 posts
6 Apr 2011 10:05am
Petermac33 said "[$55 a kilo for ginger at I.G.A]" Is this another dig at the prime minister?
petermac33
petermac33
WA
6415 posts
WA, 6415 posts
6 Apr 2011 8:15am
for $55 i would happily give her a piece.
pweedas
pweedas
WA
4642 posts
WA, 4642 posts
6 Apr 2011 10:10am
petermac33 said...

if petrol reaches $200 a barrel,the price of housing has to drop.

if the stockmarket were to crash,people would lose much of their savings,superannuation.

the price of food is influenced a great deal by the oil price.

food prices are already going through the roof [$55 a kilo for ginger at I.G.A] so if

price of oil continues to climb,pushing up price of food,where is the money going to

come from to buy overpriced housing?

some time back i said on this forum,buy gold or silver,especially silver.
was around $15 U.S an ounce then,now close to $39.

so sell your house asap,rent and then buy a property when in a couple of years they will be half the price they are now.




Actually. I think you said a bit more than that.
I seem to remember that you said by October, (LAST OCTOBER that is, not this coming October,) the whole world economy would be in a state of total collapse and our money would be worthless, as well as a lot of other doomsday predictions.
And yet here we are 6 months and counting after that date and the worst you can quote is that ginger is up to $55 a kilo at IGA.
Hardly world shattering news Pweet!
Has doomsday been postponed due to a lack of interest?

Just out of curiosity, did you take your own advice and sell all you had and invest it in silver?
cisco
cisco
QLD
12365 posts
QLD, 12365 posts
6 Apr 2011 2:57pm
An old rule of thumb when buying residential rental property was:-

"A property is worth no more in 1,000s than what it fetches in 100s in rent per week."

This gives a gross return of 5.2% and when interest rates were low and before the local councils started gouging us with their huge rate increases (mine have doubled in 4 years), an acceptable nett return of 4-4.5% was achieved.

Moderate yield, moderate growth and low risk.

Commercial and industrial property generally returned 10-13% with the tenant paying outgoings but with the risk factor of lengthy vacancies which knocks the returns about badly. Returns of 8% seem to be the norm today.

Then over the last 10 or more years we have had "the property boom that would not die" fuelled by the "Renovation Rescue, The Block, Hot Property etc TV shows".

Factor in the effects of the resources boom with it's attendant high wages and the GFC and we find that the historical ratios seem to have got a bit out of whack.

In the longer to long term I think things eventually normalise as it seems to indicate on this combined graph.

http://www.ibbotson.com.au/Assets/Files/IBB-4-002%20SBBI%20Chart_v7.pdf

The chart DOES refer to listed property though, not privately owned residential property.

It might be good to keep in mind the property investor who said to a property agent, "I am looking for a property investment."

Agent asks, "Would that be a long term investment?"

Investor asks, "Is there any other kind?"

A few well heeled people I know, among them a guy who bought a hotel for $5Mil and sold it to Coles for $17.5Mil two years later, have gotten out of property all together, except for their residences, and have invested in bank shares and cash.

For people with that kind of wealth it is probably the best strategy because these are the type of people who buy ailing businesses, fix them up and then sell them for large gains. That is all good if you have the knowlege, energy and balls for it.

For the less well heeled or financially savvy among us, I don't think it is a good time to be dropping your "property bundle".

Rents are at some all time highs and in most places there appears to be housing shortages, so I suggest it is a good time to maximise returns and weather the storm.

If one is overcommitted, selling one property might be a good idea. If you have only one property it might not be a good idea. Once you are out of the property market for a length of time it can be very hard to get back in.

Another rule of property investment is:- "Never sell unless you can replace with equivalent or better."

That is just my take on it but I am however "Dyed in the Wool, Real Estate".

Maybe this is of help in analysing where we are, some are saying we are at 7.15.

theinvestmentclock.com/

busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
6 Apr 2011 1:33pm
petermac33 said...

if petrol reaches $200 a barrel,the price of housing has to drop.

if the stockmarket were to crash,people would lose much of their savings,superannuation.

the price of food is influenced a great deal by the oil price.

food prices are already going through the roof [$55 a kilo for ginger at I.G.A] so if

price of oil continues to climb,pushing up price of food,where is the money going to

come from to buy overpriced housing?

some time back i said on this forum,buy gold or silver,especially silver.

was around $15 U.S an ounce then,now close to $39.

so sell your house asap,rent and then buy a property when in a couple of years they will be half the price they are now.






Thats ob surd to say if oil prices rize that housing will be cheaper.The price of building a house will go up you will get less for your money.

You will loose two years "rent" while the price of everything goes up the cost of building because of oil and carbon tax. You will find in two years time your new block for the same price will be 100sq metres smaller and your house will be minus 1 bedroom.
Im glad i choose to build my mansion just recently before carbon tax mining tax and more wranger (woman ranger) taxes are added.
It got to the stage where it wasn't worth saving money as it was devaluing quicker than i could save because the cost of services materials were increasing.

Just remember money devalues and should be exchanged for assets which intern hold there value or increase.

In anycase you will allways need a place to live. dont matter about if the value decreases or increses. if you sell it you will have to buy back at the inflated or deflated price. Renting is a mugs game and a waste of money. So is overcapitalizing on debt to think your going to get rich quick on property.

Alot of people can barley afford there first house net alone getting 3 and 4 rentals.

Wealth is a accumulated process over generations with healthy partnerships between marriage and asset accumulation in families that stick together.
ginger pom
ginger pom
VIC
1746 posts
VIC, 1746 posts
6 Apr 2011 10:25pm
busterwa said...

petermac33 said...

[u]

food prices are already going through the roof [$55 a kilo for ginger at I.G.A] so if


**** I'm worth $4565....
ginger pom
ginger pom
VIC
1746 posts
VIC, 1746 posts
6 Apr 2011 10:27pm
The Macster is right

if oil prices go up, people will have less cash.

People with less cash, tend to bid less at auctions.

If oil prices go up, fewer businesses are viable.

People working for businesses that they suspect are not viable, tend to bid less at auctions..
evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
6 Apr 2011 11:10pm
^ Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with a housing bubble.
Aorta
Aorta
VIC
244 posts
VIC, 244 posts
6 Apr 2011 11:26pm
If stockmarkets crash, wouldn't we will see more houses getting put on the market, tipping the scale for supply/demand of houses? I guess how far it tips depends on the size and duration of the crash.

busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
6 Apr 2011 9:31pm
I still having trouble understanding how the price of manufacturing building stuff will go down if prices of materials and oil go up..

process of crude oil (hydrogen catalytic cracking). produces...
* Asphalt
* Diesel fuel
* Fuel oils
* Gasoline
* Jet fuel
* Kerosene
* Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG)
* Lubricating oils
* Paraffin wax
* Tar
* Petrochemicals
Any manufacturing production line using these fuels (mainly diesel)such as for transporting etc. will increase the consumer will pay.
There is no way that higher oil prices will mean cheaper goods.
Just have to look at the price of petrol to work that out.
busterwa
busterwa
3782 posts
3782 posts
6 Apr 2011 9:38pm
Aorta said...

If stockmarkets crash, wouldn't we will see more houses getting put on the market, tipping the scale for supply/demand of houses? I guess how far it tips depends on the size and duration of the crash.




Alot of people in to much debt.
Least the price of housing in W.A now is relative.
You build a house on a block and that is what its worth.
During the boom real estate agents developers were pulling prices out of a magic hat

One could only hope the ones caught with gfc debt deficit (ones boasting to me how there block when up 40 grand in a month)have learnt a valuable lesson.
Least the banks have with there lending.
dirtyharry
dirtyharry
WA
444 posts
WA, 444 posts
6 Apr 2011 9:57pm
busterwa said...

I still having trouble understanding how the price of manufacturing building stuff will go down if prices of materials and oil go up..


I don't think anyone is suggesting that the price of manufacturing building stuff will go down if oil goes up.

But the issue is that the price of housing in Aus at present has little to do with the material inputs that go into making a house. It has much more to do with speculative investment in residential property (spurred on by negative gearing, which in turn has been fuelled by the above average, and in the opinion of many unsustainable, growth in property prices in the last 5-10 years), readily available credit, historically low interest rates and the slow process of land release.

If oil prices go up there are many that believe:
- People will have less cash to put into mortgages, meaning they will be unable to keep pushing up prices
- Businesses will feel the pinch, meaning higher unemployment and lower wage growth, meaning people will be unable to keep pushing up prices
- Mortgage defaults will increase due to less expendable cash
- Inflation will increase putting pressure on interest rates
- And probably other impacts that would put downward pressure on prices that I can't think of

I don't know how right those opinions are (but obviously have to admit they sound feasible to me). Either way I'm pretty convinced that increasing oil prices aren't going to put upward pressure on house prices.
dirtyharry
dirtyharry
WA
444 posts
WA, 444 posts
6 Apr 2011 9:59pm
evlPanda said...

^ Perhaps, but that has nothing to do with a housing bubble.


It has a lot to do with the prick that could pop it.
evlPanda
evlPanda
NSW
9207 posts
NSW, 9207 posts
8 Apr 2011 9:38am
^ What housing bubble?

The only proof people can offer, like the American property guy linked to above, is that the price of housing is "above average".

Averages change.

If it is the case that everything must always return to a statistical average then we must also expect a huge drop in living expenses such as electricity, petrol and groceries, and huge rises in the cost of cars and electrical goods ... or are they all statistical exception too? Which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
dirtyharry
dirtyharry
WA
444 posts
WA, 444 posts
8 Apr 2011 8:24am
evlPanda said...

^ What housing bubble?

The only proof people can offer, like the American property guy linked to above, is that the price of housing is "above average".

Averages change.

If it is the case that everything must always return to a statistical average then we must also expect a huge drop in living expenses such as electricity, petrol and groceries, and huge rises in the cost of cars and electrical goods ... or are they all statistical exception too? Which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.


I guess the answer to that would be that cost of living has increased across the board roughly in proportion to salaries, so in absolute value has changed but not in relative terms. Not so for housing - historical average for the median house price is something like 4-5 times median salary, currently is something like 8 times.
the gibbo
the gibbo
WA
776 posts
WA, 776 posts
8 Apr 2011 10:28am
petermac33 said...

if petrol reaches $200 a barrel,the price of housing has to drop.


so sell your house asap,rent and then buy a property when in a couple of years they will be half the price they are now.






Explain please ?
Most things simply are a supply and demand basis.
70,000 people a year are to move to WA, prediction up to 2016. Demand for new housing in excess of 25,000 plus how are the prices of housing going to be halfed ?

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