Self Releasing Legrope

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verdo
verdo
WA
21 posts
WA, 21 posts
8 Apr 2006 10:36am
I am doing a major assignment for design and technolgy at university at the moment and am designing a legrope that detaches automatically at a given tension, myself coming from as surfing background have used normal legropes kite surfing and experienced the displeasure of having your board come back at you a thousand miles an hour. i have seen the reel type legropes but even these do not detach after 10 metres of line being relased. what i need is some feedback from people who the product is designed for as to whether you think such an item is warranted, wanted, neccessary, or even general thoughts or ideas. All feedback is valued and appreciated.

Thanking you in advance
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
8 Apr 2006 5:21pm
A couple of my mates who went to the dark side have had bad experiences with leg ropes, the bleeding head kind! So they don't use them anymore, that's fine, but a few guys here have lost their boards thru not having legropes.
Automatic release could save this, but then you've still got the problem of detached board, getting the tension right would be important.
What about a different material for the rope, ideally something that doesn't stretch, that should allow much more tension without the flying back problem.
nebbian
nebbian
WA
6277 posts
WA, 6277 posts
8 Apr 2006 7:59pm
On the kiteboarding forum they talk a lot about "weak links", usually a piece of rope that's got a breaking strain of what you want. So if the leash stretches far enough to have enough energy to fling back, the weak link breaks. www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16903&whichpage=3&SearchTerms=weak,link

Looking at other sports:
Gliding has a weak link in the winch rope, so if too much force is applied the link breaks, not the line, stopping the line flinging back and breaking the airborne glider.
Safety harnesses for doing elevated work has a system where a piece of webbing tears, absorbing the energy.

I reckon the best system would be a reel, that at low speeds has low friction, at high speeds it locks up. Liquid Slip Differentials (LSD... erm no nothing to do with lysergic acid) have the same system.
You can do the same thing with a mixture of corn starch and water, mix it together and you'll notice that you can bend the spoon if you stir fast enough, stir slowly and it's like water.

You can do the same thing with strong magnets and a flywheel.

This would absorb the energy to make a completely safe system, no way it would fling back at you, provided that when the reel ran out of rope it let go.

Good luck with the project, let us know how it goes!
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
8 Apr 2006 9:23pm
Nebian, trouble with getting too complicated, is the mixture of saltwater and sand!! Any reel system will probably have problems with that mix
verdo
verdo
WA
21 posts
WA, 21 posts
9 Apr 2006 7:31am
my initial product uses nickel plated neodium magenets that have very strong magnetic properties embedded in 25mm nylon rod so i can shape the points of attachment. i wanted something that took minimal time to reattch after releasing. i cut a legrope and placed it in series with it and i get 14 kilograms of tension before it releases. i found you still get a fair bit of stretch in the legrope before it releases. I am not sure yet as i have not tested it in real life situations whether this is a good thing or a bad thing but i will let you know. I could either use smaller magnets so it breaks at a lower tension or use nylon rope as the leash but i have to see if a 14 kilogram direct pull on your leg is going to cause injury, smaller magnets would lower the breaking tension but would this be of any benefit if it releases relatively easy like getting caught in whitewash. Testing products and materials to continue.
MikeyS
MikeyS
VIC
1509 posts
VIC, 1509 posts
11 Apr 2006 6:04pm
Verdo, why don't you investigate elastomeric materials that can be stretched quickly but have a slow acting memory. I might be imagining it but I seem to remember little rubber-like figures you'd probably get at a toy shop that you stretch its arms out, and they gradually shrink back to shape, rather than springing back immediately. There's probably a range of polymers available that would have those properties yet have a sufficient tensile strength to still act as a legrope. You are trying to avoid the rubbery elastomers that will store (as potential energy) the kinetic energy of a board flying away from you, which energy is released as it smacks you in the face when the elastomer rapidly "remembers" its shape.
In my work I see a lot of innovation. The more complicated your design is, or the more exotic materials you use, the higher the manufacturing costs will be and the greater the market resistance to buy your product. I'm assuming that part of your project involves the manufacturing, marketing and and cost issues, not just the design. You might like to look at the US Patent Office database (Google it) to search for what others might have done on legropes in the past. Good luck.
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
11 Apr 2006 6:51pm
Elastomeric materials sounds like a great idea, much better than reels.
But I'm wondering if stretch is really needed, guess it reduces the load at the attachment point (ankle). But we aren't talking surfboards here, kite boards are much smaller area, how much load is there???
The load is going to be same once stretch reaches it's limit anyway!
My mates say the worst case is when the board nose dives when kiter is boosting, board is making like a crashdiving submarine and rider is getting winched into sky by a helicopter.

I still like the idea of no stretch, so no energy storage, (think nylon rope will still store a fair amount of energy). It's just a matter of getting the release tension right then.
elmo
elmo
WA
8894 posts
WA, 8894 posts
12 Apr 2006 7:17am
I would have thought that there is quite a bit of force on a leg rope to stretch it enough so as it's elastic propeties can rifle the board back at you, remebre we have all been in the situation where we have physically been dragged through the water by our boards still caught in the whitewater.

Myself I would never use a auto detach leg rope as it kind of defeats the purpose of the leg rope. I have on a number of occasions down south had the pleasure(?) of wiping out on sizeable surf and having to do the painfull climb back up the legrope.

The only problems I've seen with surfing legropes was a mate who when sitting ing the lineup snagged his on a shallow reef, when a wave went past he went under like he was on an elevator, it was difficult to undo the ankle strap on that one. I have also been Tied up in legg ropes which is not a fun experience, a bit panicy but can be resolved fairly easy.

I have seen what you have described but I think you are greatly underestimating the forces applied here.

A mate of mine was surfing at Old Cobbles down south on a 5 foot day, bailed in a close out section and hios momentum projected his 90+kg body close to 10 feet above the wave, his board caught under the lip slowed his flight to an almost halt fairly quickly then was pulled through the wave to come flying after him. It takes a lot of energy to through 90kg verticaly as well as quickly decelerate it.

Same applies with Kiters the kite has enough energy to loft an 80kg kiter but leave the board stuck in the water and then lauch the board rather rapidly after the kiter.

The problem is in the materials, you have to use an elastic material else if you used a non elastic rope (ie rope) then serious injury is likely to occur once the load is applied.

What is really needed in this case is an elastic material which has a high break strength whilst having a Slow energy release, that is it returns to its original length slowly, the down side of this is after being dumped by a wave your 6 foot leggy may be 7 foot when you paddle out.

It's a fun thing which your trying to do, I think you will learn a hell of a lot if you take it further, Enjoy

All the best.

Alby
verdo
verdo
WA
21 posts
WA, 21 posts
12 Apr 2006 10:08am
some very interesting ideas and observations, i like the sound of a slow return stretch material i will definitely look into it, and yes mikey part of the designing process is weighing up material and manufacturing costs compared to end user demand and willingness to purchase so i am trying to keep it simple, besides this being a uni student i don't have the funds to outsource highly elaborate mechanical setups and manufacturing techniques.

The prototype legrope i designed utilising the magnets works relatively well, i took a kiteboard and the legrope and went out into surf to see if the board getting caught in whitewash was enough to release the legrope and it took a fair amount of whitewash to cause it to release. when the board cavataded but did not release it still came back at you but not with enough force that it would cause damage if it hit you. My main concern is the weight of the materials. The magnets and nylon bar encased in heatshrink are very hard so i placed the join about 25cm from the ankle strap so the recoil action after the join releases sends the other 1.5 metres of legrope with attachment at the end in the direction of the board and not the user. i think the recoil action after detachment is enough to cause damage to the board if it hits it (concern indeed).

The other thing is the megnetic joint connection being 25cm from the ankle strap means the joint would be flapping next to your board as you are planing along the water which could also damge the board so rather than strapping it on your ankle you would need to attach it to your harness (my cabrinha harness has a handle strap at the back where i would attach it in preference to the ankle) this places the join next to your butt eliminating drag and interference with other equipment. testing to continue. Keep the ideas coming.
MikeyS
MikeyS
VIC
1509 posts
VIC, 1509 posts
13 Apr 2006 9:23am
I think I'm getting closer to the materials you need. Try investigating visco-elastic urethanes, like the ones referred to at gallaghercorp.com/hysteresis-in-urethane/
Start talking about hysteresis curves, fatigue, stress/strain, cut propagation, breaking strength etc in your assignment and you're bound to get top marks.
You should be looking for a material with a high viscosity/low resilience. When being stretched, the high viscosity material converts the force (or more accurately, kinetic energy) of a board flying into heat. As mentioned at the webpage, the enemy of urethanes is heat. You have the perfect solution to this- oceans of beautiful cooling medium, namely sea water. Ideal way to dissipate that heat!
verdo
verdo
WA
21 posts
WA, 21 posts
13 Apr 2006 1:39pm
Thanks mike.

A students best friend, i'll make sure you get a start in my reference list.
jeremy
jeremy
WA
202 posts
WA, 202 posts
14 Apr 2006 7:55am
plasma rope..i recently changed my winch line on my trailer boat from a wire rope to plasma rope.I did so because it is safer. Less likely to decapitate you if it breaks or a shackle breaks.Its lighter too. Plasma rope is remarkable. It is incredibly strong, but the interesting characteristic that might interest to you is that it has virtually no elasticity. It is the stored kinetic energy of a stretched elastic leash or board rope that is the problem.

jeremy
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
14 Apr 2006 7:07pm
Good on ya Jeremy, that's what I've been trying to tell them NO stretch is better, the release mechanism takes care of excess load on the body.
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