What makes a board loose?

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oceanfire
oceanfire
WA
718 posts
WA, 718 posts
15 Jul 2013 8:53am
There's a couple of forums here I could post this question in, but I'm not sure which would be the best one.

I'm hoping to get some advice on on what makes a board, whether it's a surfboard, SUP or kite-surfboard, 'loose' in the water.

I figure there would be some sort of similarities between all of them, but not being a user of any of them, yet, I don't have the experience to work it out myself.

What I'm trying to find out is, what makes a board pivotable and loose on the tail end.
Is it hull shape? Or fin set up? Or what sort of combination of both?

What would the characteristics of a board be if you wanted to make it nose swing quickly from side to side, pivoting on the tail end, whether moving of standing still?

Hope this makes sense, any advice would be really helpful.
Cheers :)


Tux
Tux
VIC
3829 posts
Tux Tux
VIC, 3829 posts
15 Jul 2013 11:02am
Tail shape
Bottom contours
fin placement
fin size and orietnation
Foot placement
rail shape
oceanfire
oceanfire
WA
718 posts
WA, 718 posts
15 Jul 2013 9:10am
Tux said..

Tail shape
Bottom contours
fin placement
fin size and orietnation
Foot placement
rail shape



Thanks Tux, I probably didn't put my question right;
I was wondering how to configure those variables to make the board as loose as possible.
chrispy
chrispy
WA
9675 posts
WA, 9675 posts
15 Jul 2013 11:31am
Go talk to a shaper
roder
roder
27 posts
27 posts
15 Jul 2013 11:44am
rocker
choco
choco
SA
4186 posts
SA, 4186 posts
15 Jul 2013 2:52pm
a lot of sex?
WA71
WA71
WA
1382 posts
WA, 1382 posts
15 Jul 2013 3:01pm
choco said..
a lot of sex?


Board not broard
decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
15 Jul 2013 4:02pm
I'll go with Roder, rocker is the main ingredient, the more rocker the looser it will be, but unfortunately also slower. I have a theory, that for purely wave riding, this isn't quite true, because the wave face is also curved.

Plan shape is also a factor, parallel rails and wide tails will stiffen a board up. The angle the rail makes to the fin, when the board is leaned into the water helps to turn the board. So a fairly pinny tail expanding smoothly into a widdish middle should turn well.

Bottom shape, a rolled bottom is easier to lean over, but has reduced planing efficiency, so slower.

Fin length, the longer the fin, the more effort is needed to lean the board over.
Fin position, further forward looser, further back stiffer.
And of course multi fins, the more "toe out" on the outside fins and the further forward the centre fin the looser it will be

Radial inertia, or "swing weight" the further the centre of gravity is from the fin and the heavier it is, the harder it will be to turn.
So there are a lot of variables, people have been playing with them seriously since George Greenough came on the scene with his loose fast knee board in the mid 60s. (he could literally run rings round the top surfers of the day)
Getting a mal to replicate that was impossible, that's the main reason surfboards started to shrink, now the modern multifin board is very close to the mark, may be even better.
The trick is to achieve looseness without sacrificing too much speed.

Plan shape, radial inertia and fin length/position are about the only ones that don't affect speed, but fin position affects control, and reducing radial inertia without just making the board shorter isn't that easy, and plan shape is basically about how much area you need where, a narrow tail is fine on bigger more hollow waves, but can bog down in smaller mushy stuff.

Multi fins make things a bit more complicated, and they're a bit after my time, although I've ridden them since the late 80s I haven't done a lot of experimenting with fin position and angle on different width boards.

EDIT>
Just reread your question, getting the nose to swing around on a board that isn't moving?

It's the movement of water over the bottom of the board that gives it it's manoeuvrability, more drag one side makes it turn in that direction, plus the tilted board then offers a curved surface to the water, plus if one toed in fin comes out of the water leaving the other toed in fin in, you have a big turning moment.
Without relative water flow, all you can do is twist your body slowly one way and fast the other, putting more weight on the back foot for the fast side. If you really need to do this, radial inertia becomes the biggest factor, rail shape may help if you want to stop the board turning back in the slow direction, fat square rails a bit forward of the water line and fine tapered rails in the water line, when the weight is back. But I'm only guessing here, you'll need to experiment.
CMC
CMC
QLD
3954 posts
CMC CMC
QLD, 3954 posts
15 Jul 2013 8:30pm
Every variable has a positive and negative. It's all a combination of outline, rocker, bottom contours, fin size, fin position etc etc. it's a tug of war between looseness and speed. You can have something that pivots on the spot with no drive, you can have a board that flies but won't turn.

It's kind of complex and in the end the right answer is having a medium amount of all so that the board is fast and loose.

Nothing makes something loose than going fast afterall.

decrepit
decrepit
WA
12885 posts
WA, 12885 posts
15 Jul 2013 10:20pm
CMC said..

Every variable has a positive and negative. It's all a combination of outline, rocker, bottom contours, fin size, fin position etc etc. it's a tug of war between looseness and speed. You can have something that pivots on the spot with no drive, you can have a board that flies but won't turn.

It's kind of complex and in the end the right answer is having a medium amount of all so that the board is fast and loose.

Nothing makes something loose than going fast afterall.



But there again, you can go fast if you're manoeuvrable enough to get into the pocket quickly. Nothing else helps speed quite like a vertical drop.

I don't like sacrificing drive for looseness though. That's what I didn't like about twin fins, pushing out of a hard turn can give you acceleration.
Hit the lip, vertical drop, accelerating bottom turn back to the top.
A straight line speeder can't do that, nor can a wishy washy loose floppy thing.
rockmagnet
rockmagnet
QLD
1458 posts
QLD, 1458 posts
18 Jul 2013 9:30am
Forgetting to use your tie down straps!
snoopydog
snoopydog
WA
71 posts
WA, 71 posts
18 Jul 2013 9:20pm
when alot of blokes/ or laidies use it
king of the point
king of the point
WA
1836 posts
WA, 1836 posts
19 Jul 2013 6:03pm
LIKE TO ADD

Tail ........Thickness , width , rocker and V

Fin Rack and Flex ............More upright the more lift and drive more ,,,,,this is where it gets a bit confusing as a more up right side fin
can get you vert and be snappier more snappier but less inclined to hang in on slides. The more racked back the greater
the effort to drive vert .........combo of flex and rake vs v and rocker
............More flex more back foot slide off the bottom

Try overdoing it some day thats the flex and slide off the bottom ,,, to often people are way over finned and never increase the flex and release enough to find the sweet spot of slide grip and control
Test pilot 1
Test pilot 1
WA
1430 posts
WA, 1430 posts
19 Jul 2013 10:52pm
WA71 said..

choco said..
a lot of sex?


Board not broard


Doncha meen board not broad
oceanfire
oceanfire
WA
718 posts
WA, 718 posts
22 Jul 2013 12:30pm
Thanks for the info guys

Anyone know where I can get an elcheapo board I can cut, drill & destroy, in Perth?
Carantoc
Carantoc
WA
7285 posts
WA, 7285 posts
22 Jul 2013 3:22pm
Northbridge 1am Saturday morning ?
Carantoc
Carantoc
WA
7285 posts
WA, 7285 posts
22 Jul 2013 3:23pm
Sorry, I just noticed the topic is back on board not broad.
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