Thirty five years ago the C.S.I.R.O. conducted an experiment to ascertain whether modern urban homes could be independant of the power grid or not.

In Can'tberra (did I spell that right?), a city not known for an abundance of sunlight, or intelligence, they built a home with all the modern conveniences of the day (lighting, cooking, fridge, washing machine etc) and set it up to be independant of the power grid.

The systems put in place were backed up by an automatic start up diesel power plant in a shed at the rear of the house.

The experiment ran for a full year and at no time did the diesel power plant start up.

How do I know this?? Because the ABC ran a programme on television publishing the results of the experiment and I happened to be watching it that night.

You can search the C.S.I.R.O. and ABC web sites and you will not find any reference to it. WHY????.........What happened to the data????

The experiment proved that the only need for the power grid and base load power generation is for:-

1. Essential services.
2. Industry.
3. High density occupation buildings. ie office and apartment buildings.

Undisputedly the technology used 35 years ago has been improved upon so one HAS to ASK.......... WHY are Urban Houses STILL on the GRID??

The answer is that we have been CONNED. We are subsidising multinational industries on their power use to say the least.

None of you are going to give me the "conspiracy theory" shyte on this one because I know what I saw.

Anybody know more about this than I??

cisco said...



Anybody know more about this than I??

Maybe PM33?

I fully agree with you Cisco...but what can we do about it? Riot, strike, fast? Or have a gripe on a watersports website forum until it's argued out of existence, then go back to what we were doing before the topic was raised.

Hmmm.....(baa)

It's not a conspiracy, just normal market economics.

To be fully grid-independent, you need to meet your current energy needs. Let's assume you'll go with PV (photovoltaic) solar, as this is currently the most applicable technology.

The daily energy you need in summer is roughly (peak period):
12 kW/h for the pool pump+chlorinator (1500W running 8 hours per day)
7.5 kW/h for the evap (but if you live in a place more humid than WA, multiply this by 5 as you'll be using a proper heatpump-based and very energy-hungry reverse-cycle aircon)
2.5 kW/h for energy-efficient lighting
5 kW/h everything else (fridge, music+tv, etc...)
let's assume cooking and hot-water are through natural gas.

Total: 27 kW/h per day. Looking at my utility bill - sounds about normal.

Now let's dimension your solar system:
Assuming 8 hours of sunlight at 80% average insolation.
Assuming you are using the best PV panels money can get (Sunpower 318's?) that are 19.5% efficient.
Assuming peak solar irradiation per square metre is 1 kW.
Assuming inverter efficiency of 98%.
You need about 14 panels - a 4.5 kW system.
You need 25m2 of North-facing, sun-lit area (roof?).
You need heaps of lead-acid battery backup capable of storing about 10 kW/h or energy (if your pool pump and aircon are set to work during the day time). You will need lots of indoor space for the batteries!
This should cover your needs 95% of the time, but for the remaining cloudy days, you need a backup diesel generator.
The inverter needs to be really fancy, in order to control the batteries AND the diesel genny.

I'm not in this business, but my guess is that it will set you back $30000 minimum. However, this will not add nearly as much value to your house, so it's a very poor capital investment. I don't have Excel around to do the PV/FV calculations, but I suspect you can settle your regular electricity bills for about 20 years, given the current value of $30k. After 20 years, your photovoltaic system will need replacement anyway.

It just doesn't make financial sense. Makes more sense to go for a grid-tie system that covers the majority of your daytime peak demands only, and can pay itself back after 8-10 years or so...

One reason may be that nearly every house is running a 3 kw air con unit .

It is possible to set up a small solar 12 volt set up and occasionally run an inverter for washing machine and other power hungry devices .

But we are all too accustomed to chewing through the power now it seems .

i designed a house about 2 years ago that was completely off grid. full solar/battery, grey and black water recycling, rainwater harvesting, natural ventilation, 80% approx recycled building materials, solar hot water, heat exchange stove. the world could stop and this place would be self sufficient

i think 40k was in the ball park from memory maybe a little more or less, it was a while ago...
rainwater tanks are not part of that cost as they are required by code and this place also needed bushfire tanks.

it becomes economical for remote/rural applications.
for eg running power up the side of a mountain or onto a large property can cost 30k or more.

it's old news really and no conspiracy,

the cutting edge stuff is applying the concepts to high rise buildings. about 4 years ago i did a 6 star high rise building. rainwater harvesting, greywater, green walls, green roofs, a/c fancoils used to ventilate carparking, naturally ventilation where possible. never got built unfortunately. 6 star was a marketting angle prior to the gfc.

this building was design about 8 years ago
www.gbca.org.au/uploads/73/1609/Brisbane_Square.pdf

I got my monthly $30 phone line rental cut off.

Tomorrow, going to put my gas hot water system down to vaccation.

Healthy anyway to have a cold shower.

I now turn off my large amplifier and t.v off when not in use.....bloody private corporatists have us in servitude, REPCO in the process.

Now they're planning to nuke us,the poor souls on the grid with the smart meters,not all about money you know.

According to William Deagle interviewed on Jeff Rense, the radiation omitted from these smart meters compared to a mobile phone is like a candle compared to a flame thrower.

sounds good to me I think i paid about $870 last quarter so 15- 30k dun look so bad really

cisco said...

Thanks for that comprehensive response.

Let's take out the ....

Don't forget the energy you'll need to charge the Holden Volt.

Theres a lot of propaganda getting around at the momment about the merits of alternative energy. I for one would love to have an efficient system and save a fortune and the planet, Its just so difficult to sort the facts from fiction.

couple of years ago there was a documentary called who killed the electric car. It raved on about how great these cars were and greedy big business killing it off. Fact is that the experiment failed because batteries are an inefficient way to store electrical energy and still are.

An example. I know a person who bought a prius not long after they were introduced. She became a total pain at social functions as she would seek people out with big cars and acuse them of planet murder. After a year and a half when she was on the verge of breaking even with the extra perchase cost the batteries failed and the replacement cost of them was more than the cars worth. All she achieved with this vehicle was a pile of evil nickel cadmium in landfill.

I'm yet to be convinced a rooftop solar panel will ever produce the energy it took to manufacture it and get it on the roof. Where will they end up in 10 or 20 years when they're buggered. These things are just moving the problem to China.

I fully agree with the development of alternative power sources and I realise it can only happen with constant development. I am worried about the mass manufacture of inefficient technology to pay for it.

"WHY are Urban Houses STILL on the GRID??

The answer is that we have been CONNED. We are subsidising multinational industries on their power use to say the least."

And you've only realized this now?
Go and read the Book "Suppressed Inventions and other ideas" , Its enough to make you cry.

And WHY ARE URBAN HOUSES STILL BEING CONNECTED TO THE NBN GRID, whether you want it or not.

We have also been conned into believing

A) it will cost only $36 billion
B) it will mean you never have to visit a hospital again as you can do surgery over the net
C) it is essential for modern life
D) you need it to be able to download software that will calculate your grid power usage

And WHY ARE URBAN AREAS CONNECTED TO HIGHWAYS ?

I saw a TV programme years ago that said by 2000 we would all have personnal hoverboards and teleporters. Yet this technology has been sidelined in favour of cars, busses and roads.

And WHY ARE URBAN HOMES CONNECTED TO THE SEWERAGE SYSTEM ?

450 years ago the entire city of London did not have a central sewerage system. Yet we are still being hoodwinked to believe that wallowing in a pool of your own faeces is somehow 'bad' for you.