Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

Advice on next foil

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Created by Brohan 4 months ago, 24 Nov 2018
Brohan
VIC, 507 posts
24 Nov 2018 11:21AM
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Looking at getting another foil but not sure what I should go for.

Currently, I ride a North Speedster and I like to go up wind a few kms and then do S turns downwind on small bay waves.

I also want to try using my foil in the surf (without a kite), so would a sup foil be good for both or too slow on the kite?

Any recommendations of what my next foil should be? Should I get a big sup type foil or try something else?

Kamikuza
QLD, 3758 posts
24 Nov 2018 1:58PM
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What's wrong with the foil for you?

Brohan
VIC, 507 posts
24 Nov 2018 3:19PM
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Kamikuza said..
What's wrong with the foil for you?



Not much, I like the North speedster but i'm looking for something that feels more like a surfboard if that makes sense. Something that's fun in the waves and doesn't shoot off down the face.

Livit
WA, 430 posts
24 Nov 2018 12:52PM
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Brohan said..

Kamikuza said..
What's wrong with the foil for you?




Not much, I like the North speedster but i'm looking for something that feels more like a surfboard if that makes sense. Something that's fun in the waves and doesn't shoot off down the face.


If you want more of a surfboard feel, a canard design is your only option. Doesn't shoot off the face and go through white water way better than the classic foil designs.

snalberski
WA, 624 posts
24 Nov 2018 2:08PM
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Brohan said..
Should I get a big sup type foil or try something else?


Clearly you need to demo anything you are considering. Although I haven't actually tried one I have seen plenty of people using sup foils for kiting and outwardly they appear mostly to be sluggish slow dogs with limited useability. I would guess a medium aspect foil like the speedster
but of a different design would tick your boxes. I have tried the speedster and the first thing that stuck me was the lack of looseness/tendancy to track in a strait line, which is maybe good, maybe bad. My comparison is my JShapes freeride which has about the same aspect but a different shape and made of carbon fibre. I have seen plenty of vids of guys tow in an paddle surfing using my exact foil.

emmafoils
54 posts
24 Nov 2018 4:13PM
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There are many foils that would work very well for the type of riding you want to do. I would look for something in the 1100 to 1200 cm2 range for kiting (Moses 633, Liquid Force Impulse, Lift 170 are some popular examples). They may be slow in straight line speed but that slowness helps sync with small wave speed. Whether you can use the same wing for SUP foiling (without kite) depends on your skill level and size. I don't think you need a canard design to ride waves with a kite foil.

Kamikuza
QLD, 3758 posts
24 Nov 2018 8:51PM
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Brohan said..

Kamikuza said..
What's wrong with the foil for you?

Not much, I like the North speedster but i'm looking for something that feels more like a surfboard if that makes sense. Something that's fun in the waves and doesn't shoot off down the face.


You gotta demo

I think a SUP foil might be too big, as emmafoils said you want a surf foil about 1200cm2 or less for kiting and prone surfing, for "average weight" kiters.

You might find the lower AR wings a bit too loose, if you're used to how the Speedster feels locked in ... but you gotta demo.

Big wings will certainly provide big grins though. Everything is easier

airsail
QLD, 316 posts
24 Nov 2018 8:52PM
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I'm using the Naish medium surf wing on a 70cm mast fitted to the Naish 112 board. The wing is 1000 sqcm and works well for the style of riding you want to do. It's a thick wing and very easy to ride slow and stay with the wind chop, min speed is about 12 kph but will do 32 kph if needed.
Any of the bigger wings should work well. Weight of the foil doesn't seem to be an issue as your not jumping, though be careful what board you fit these big wings to as you could end up with a sinker, rather than a floater if using a no volume board.
Tried the Naish large surf wing, found it ok, lots of lift but probably better suited to heavier riders, I'm 80 kg and the medium is plenty for me.
Here are some tracks from the other day, heading up wing and then chop riding back down.


Brohan
VIC, 507 posts
25 Nov 2018 9:52AM
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Thanks for the advice all! Yes, I will demo a few but just thought I could get a selection of a few to try first.


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airsail said..
I'm using the Naish medium surf wing on a 70cm mast fitted to the Naish 112 board. The wing is 1000 sqcm and works well for the style of riding you want to do. It's a thick wing and very easy to ride slow and stay with the wind chop, min speed is about 12 kph but will do 32 kph if needed.
Any of the bigger wings should work well. Weight of the foil doesn't seem to be an issue as your not jumping, though be careful what board you fit these big wings to as you could end up with a sinker, rather than a floater if using a no volume board.
Tried the Naish large surf wing, found it ok, lots of lift but probably better suited to heavier riders, I'm 80 kg and the medium is plenty for me.
Here are some tracks from the other day, heading up wing and then chop riding back down.




I'll give the Naish a go as this is what I like to do also and I'm around the same weight as you. Have you tried using a longer mast? What's the difference? Right now I think mines 85 or 90cms, I've tried a 110cm mast on a KFA Mako V1 and didn't really notice much of a difference. Although, I only had it for a few hours before I lost the fuselage to the ocean.

Gorgo
VIC, 4134 posts
25 Nov 2018 10:50AM
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A longer mast is more forgiving. The foil is deeper in the water so you have more room before the foil pops out. You're less affected by waves and technique errors.

You can bank it over harder. That lets you carve more aggressively, and in a straight line you can charge upwind with more power.

The downside is getting off the beach can be harder, particularly when it's onshore.

It's a bit scary chasing waves over sandbars or a reef. If you stay up on the foil you're fine. Sometimes I can feel the foil bouncing off the bottom.

The face plants can be worse. Falling from a great height always hurts. It's super scary when the foil pops up way high and you're struggling to get it down.

The turns can be less "snappy". Snappy turns are good in small waves. Hard banked carves on a long mast are nice in big swells.

I use my 95cm mast all the time. I use my 70cm mast a little. It takes about 15 minutes to change gears to get used to the shorter mast. I fall a lot more in chop.

Kamikuza
QLD, 3758 posts
25 Nov 2018 1:41PM
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Brohan said..
Thanks for the advice all! Yes, I will demo a few but just thought I could get a selection of a few to try first.


I'll give the Naish a go as this is what I like to do also and I'm around the same weight as you. Have you tried using a longer mast? What's the difference? Right now I think mines 85 or 90cms, I've tried a 110cm mast on a KFA Mako V1 and didn't really notice much of a difference. Although, I only had it for a few hours before I lost the fuselage to the ocean.


Axis S-series 680 is popular. Try the 750 if you want to surf it too. I've got an 820 because I'm heavy and I like less kite and lots of glide. I've done 36kph on it, and it cruising nice and slow too...

airsail
QLD, 316 posts
25 Nov 2018 4:54PM
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Brohan said..

I'll give the Naish a go as this is what I like to do also and I'm around the same weight as you. Have you tried using a longer mast? What's the difference? Right now I think mines 85 or 90cms, I've tried a 110cm mast on a KFA Mako V1 and didn't really notice much of a difference. Although, I only had it for a few hours before I lost the fuselage to the ocean.


Hi Brohan,
Fitted the 90cm mast today after being on the 70 for a long time. I agree with Gorgo, more forgiving, and I found it little different to the 70, took no time to adjust. I actually enjoyed it and even worked out how to fit into the car without disassembly so will use it more in the future. You definitely can crank the turns harder without breaching.

For this type of foiling you need the lightest kite possible as you travelling almost directly downwind and there is bugger all wind to hold the kite up. Here are some tracks of today's session, I guess this is what your trying to achieve.
It was about 13 knots and I was on a 7mtr Reo (no outer struts).



Kamikuza
QLD, 3758 posts
25 Nov 2018 5:27PM
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airsail said..

Brohan said..

I'll give the Naish a go as this is what I like to do also and I'm around the same weight as you. Have you tried using a longer mast? What's the difference? Right now I think mines 85 or 90cms, I've tried a 110cm mast on a KFA Mako V1 and didn't really notice much of a difference. Although, I only had it for a few hours before I lost the fuselage to the ocean.



Hi Brohan,
Fitted the 90cm mast today after being on the 70 for a long time. I agree with Gorgo, more forgiving, and I found it little different to the 70, took no time to adjust. I actually enjoyed it and even worked out how to fit into the car without disassembly so will use it more in the future. You definitely can crank the turns harder without breaching.

For this type of foiling you need the lightest kite possible as you travelling almost directly downwind and there is bugger all wind to hold the kite up. Here are some tracks of today's session, I guess this is what your trying to achieve.
It was about 13 knots and I was on a 7mtr Reo (no outer struts).




You're building pyramids, I'm making donuts





ice
VIC, 214 posts
26 Nov 2018 12:30PM
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emmafoils said..
There are many foils that would work very well for the type of riding you want to do. I would look for something in the 1100 to 1200 cm2 range for kiting (Moses 633, Liquid Force Impulse, Lift 170 are some popular examples). They may be slow in straight line speed but that slowness helps sync with small wave speed. Whether you can use the same wing for SUP foiling (without kite) depends on your skill level and size. I don't think you need a canard design to ride waves with a kite foil.




I agree with these comments. I love the Liquid Force Impulse for swell riding.

I have the 24 inch front wing. Cloud 9 Surf Foils and the Liquid force impluse are the same wing.

Cloud ix also make a 27 inch front wing which looks great for prone surfing - see their facebook site for many videos of prone surfing.

Maybe you need both, the 24 inch for kite foiling, and the 27 inch for prone surfing. Use the same fuselage and stabiliser, maybe a longer mast for kiting.

Brohan
VIC, 507 posts
26 Nov 2018 3:22PM
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airsail said..



Brohan said..

I'll give the Naish a go as this is what I like to do also and I'm around the same weight as you. Have you tried using a longer mast? What's the difference? Right now I think mines 85 or 90cms, I've tried a 110cm mast on a KFA Mako V1 and didn't really notice much of a difference. Although, I only had it for a few hours before I lost the fuselage to the ocean.





Hi Brohan,
Fitted the 90cm mast today after being on the 70 for a long time. I agree with Gorgo, more forgiving, and I found it little different to the 70, took no time to adjust. I actually enjoyed it and even worked out how to fit into the car without disassembly so will use it more in the future. You definitely can crank the turns harder without breaching.

For this type of foiling you need the lightest kite possible as you travelling almost directly downwind and there is bugger all wind to hold the kite up. Here are some tracks of today's session, I guess this is what your trying to achieve.
It was about 13 knots and I was on a 7mtr Reo (no outer struts).




I have a quiver of Reo's and I currently pretty much ride directly into them and they drift back perfectly.

Thanks for the info everyone, going to give the Moses, Axis and Naish foils a demo to start with and go from there.

Cheers!

eddiemorgs
NT, 344 posts
26 Nov 2018 3:46PM
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Brohan said..

airsail said..




Brohan said..

I'll give the Naish a go as this is what I like to do also and I'm around the same weight as you. Have you tried using a longer mast? What's the difference? Right now I think mines 85 or 90cms, I've tried a 110cm mast on a KFA Mako V1 and didn't really notice much of a difference. Although, I only had it for a few hours before I lost the fuselage to the ocean.






Hi Brohan,
Fitted the 90cm mast today after being on the 70 for a long time. I agree with Gorgo, more forgiving, and I found it little different to the 70, took no time to adjust. I actually enjoyed it and even worked out how to fit into the car without disassembly so will use it more in the future. You definitely can crank the turns harder without breaching.

For this type of foiling you need the lightest kite possible as you travelling almost directly downwind and there is bugger all wind to hold the kite up. Here are some tracks of today's session, I guess this is what your trying to achieve.
It was about 13 knots and I was on a 7mtr Reo (no outer struts).





I have a quiver of Reo's and I currently pretty much ride directly into them and they drift back perfectly.

Thanks for the info everyone, going to give the Moses, Axis and Naish foils a demo to start with and go from there.

Cheers!


Wave kites work well if you are into ocean swells and waves , I use Neos

My thoughts about having boards to cover both prone and kitefoiling ... its always a compromise between two different disciples but it could work for a bit and then you might think you will want something which does each job better . You might want a differnt board or foil as you go. That is just my experience speaking after 35 years of investment in wind gear .$$$$$$$$$

Have a look at jshapes too if you can - they also have a wave foil - C wave-
www.jshapes.com/collections/surf-foiling
They also have a range of boards to suit prone surf foiling and kitefoiling , is carbon gear and well priced , not many bells and whistles but I cant speak highly enough of the gear I have used for the last 18 months . You just do up 4 screws and its on
Antoine is very helpful if you have any questions

I mostly use the cruzer foil , their beginner / wave kiting foil . Its well balanced and responsive, awesome fun to ride . As I get better , it seems to get better and better in its performance . Its only downside is me holding it back .
I might get the wave foil next year as i get better in waves and need to slow it down a bit , and from experience dont doubt it would be a good foil

Had a great session yesterday on the cruzer on the 17 Zephyr , sounds boring but the cruzer foil and 120 board in swell is sweet even with a big kite

Cheers

bigtone667
NSW, 1021 posts
26 Nov 2018 6:35PM
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Had a great session yesterday on the cruzer on the 17 Zephyr , sounds boring but the cruzer foil and 120 board in swell is sweet even with a big kite




My mind just went "That is a massive kite".....

How far I have come since I started foiling.

I have two 17m LEI's, 18m/15m foil kites that are essentially redundant.

Biggest kite I use now is 13.4 with 32m lines (sometimes 50m lines when I am being a tool).

You are doing the right thing trying a range of foils.

warwickl
NSW, 1126 posts
26 Nov 2018 8:05PM
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bigtone667 said..





Had a great session yesterday on the cruzer on the 17 Zephyr , sounds boring but the cruzer foil and 120 board in swell is sweet even with a big kite





My mind just went "That is a massive kite".....

How far I have come since I started foiling.

I have two 17m LEI's, 18m/15m foil kites that are essentially redundant.

Biggest kite I use now is 13.4 with 32m lines (sometimes 50m lines when I am being a tool).

You are doing the right thing trying a range of foils.


BT is about 30kg more than my 75kg .
As such my biggest kite for foiling is 10.4m for 7kn plus wind with medium Naish foil.

simonp
169 posts
27 Nov 2018 6:41AM
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eddiemorgs said..


Had a great session yesterday on the cruzer on the 17 Zephyr , sounds boring but the cruzer foil and 120 board in swell is sweet even with a big kite


+1 for J-shapes, awesome user friendly gear. I have the cruzer foil and 120cm board as well but have never tried anything bigger than a 12m. The limiting factor is board volume. If I can get up on the board, then I can foil. I am often scraping the bottom or losing the board in shore break. The gear is tough.

djdojo
VIC, 1511 posts
27 Nov 2018 10:01AM
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Slightly OT but I'd be a potential J-shapes customer if they made a mast with a plate. I only ride low-volume boards so tuttle is out.

oldbones
QLD, 96 posts
27 Nov 2018 11:29AM
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djdojo said..
Slightly OT but I'd be a potential J-shapes customer if they made a mast with a plate. I only ride low-volume boards so tuttle is out.


Two bits of 50mm aluminum angle bro, works a treat.

snalberski
WA, 624 posts
27 Nov 2018 10:31AM
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djdojo said..
Slightly OT but I'd be a potential J-shapes customer if they made a mast with a plate. I only ride low-volume boards so tuttle is out.


By low volume do you mean non foam ply style boards? The Jshapes 120 is low volume by virtue of its size. A couple of companies including Manta Foils are now making Deep Tuttle to plate converters. They look like they would work well but it is more hardware and possible movement points and not for everyone.
They will also give you a little extra mast height which would be a bonus for me. I think it would be hard to improve on the solidness of a Deep Tuttle connection, especially the ones made in house by JShapes. If you emailed Antoine he would have the best solution for sure, though I cant see one other than an adaptor.

www.mantafoils.com/e-shop/Manta-deep-tuttle-to-plate-adapter-lighter-version-p103155385

It weighs 700 grams

eddiemorgs
NT, 344 posts
27 Nov 2018 1:09PM
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snalberski said..


djdojo said..
Slightly OT but I'd be a potential J-shapes customer if they made a mast with a plate. I only ride low-volume boards so tuttle is out.




By low volume do you mean non foam ply style boards? The Jshapes 120 is low volume by virtue of its size. A couple of companies including Manta Foils are now making Deep Tuttle to plate converters. They look like they would work well but it is more hardware and possible movement points and not for everyone.
They will also give you a little extra mast height which would be a bonus for me. I think it would be hard to improve on the solidness of a Deep Tuttle connection, especially the ones made in house by JShapes. If you emailed Antoine he would have the best solution for sure, though I cant see one other than an adaptor.

www.mantafoils.com/e-shop/Manta-deep-tuttle-to-plate-adapter-lighter-version-p103155385

It weighs 700 grams



Yep Antoine would have a fix .....and above already .
The 120 is a great board and light due to carbon , but I have not yet ridden a LV board , so it might be a whole diiferent ball game

eddiemorgs
NT, 344 posts
27 Nov 2018 1:42PM
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simonp said..



eddiemorgs said..



Had a great session yesterday on the cruzer on the 17 Zephyr , sounds boring but the cruzer foil and 120 board in swell is sweet even with a big kite



+1 for J-shapes, awesome user friendly gear. I have the cruzer foil and 120cm board as well but have never tried anything bigger than a 12m. The limiting factor is board volume. If I can get up on the board, then I can foil. I am often scraping the bottom or losing the board in shore break. The gear is tough.



I use the 17 because that is what I have , and it cost me $3000, or something like that , so I need or use it or get rid of it

Of course prefer to use a 7 but its Darwin and we need to think hard about bottom end , at this time of year we often are faced with 10kts (10kts here is not the same as 10kts in the south, different density ) and I can go out on the 12 Neo but our wind is thin and a lull of 2 kts makes it tricky .... so lately I have been using to 17 to protect me from a swim at the bottom end of the wind range

Havent used the 17 for a long time for obvious reasons above , but i have really enjoyed it ... believe it or not .

Having said that I can now see why you might look at the Cloud strutless and mono strut kites due their light wind ability, but its more $$$
I am guessing the 13.4 cloud + 10.4 would outperform the 17 zephyr
Which size would you go for ?

Sorry about off topic ... but its a useful conversation for Brohan too

And agree , I have had quiet afew impacts with sand and one good one with a rock on the jshapes ... no problem , just a few scratches. Its well built

Cheers

bigtone667
NSW, 1021 posts
27 Nov 2018 8:33PM
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I go the 13.4m because of my weight. But I suspect I would go the chrono 18m or Cloud 17m in Darwin. 10 knots of hot wind is not as nice as 10 knots of cool wind.

I use a hover 155 in super light wind because it is a wide skimboard and it planes easily.

I then added 32m race lines (ozone) so I can keep the kite in the power window longer.

If I get up on the board, I will get up on the wing.

djdojo
VIC, 1511 posts
28 Nov 2018 1:29PM
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Yeah, the adaptors are an option, but adding weight, cost, moving parts etc is not my cup o tea. By low volume I mean small wood core boards that are only thick enough to float the foil. Advantages to these are they are easy to make for very little cost, and super durable. T-nuts glued into the top, screw your plate-mast on from below, and bob's your uncle. Paying more than $200 for a rectangle to stand on is madness in my book ;)

warwickl
NSW, 1126 posts
28 Nov 2018 5:03PM
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djdojo said..
Yeah, the adaptors are an option, but adding weight, cost, moving parts etc is not my cup o tea. By low volume I mean small wood core boards that are only thick enough to float the foil. Advantages to these are they are easy to make for very little cost, and super durable. T-nuts glued into the top, screw your plate-mast on from below, and bob's your uncle. Paying more than $200 for a rectangle to stand on is madness in my book ;)








Buy a low cost skim board drill 4 holes then reinforce all good and love it. Now used 2 to 4 times per week in last 6 months no issues.

djdojo
VIC, 1511 posts
28 Nov 2018 9:42PM
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^^^ Cheers, I already have two boards I built myself - one 114x45cm, one 118x43, both weigh 3kg, super stiff and tough as nails.

Mask
WA, 293 posts
28 Nov 2018 7:34PM
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dojo, can you put some pics up of your boards?. Also thinking of making one. Any advice appreciated.

djdojo
VIC, 1511 posts
29 Nov 2018 9:08PM
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^^^ Yes, sure, but maybe not till Sunday when I get a bit of time.

speedy87
VIC, 74 posts
29 Nov 2018 9:36PM
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I'm selling my spotz tuna foil if you want to go fast



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"Advice on next foil" started by Brohan