Forums > Kitesurfing Foiling

Foil orientation confusion ???

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Created by Lambie 1 month ago, 17 Oct 2017
Lambie
VIC, 634 posts
17 Oct 2017 7:13PM
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This should be in the newbie foil section I know (Laurie??) - but I'm looking to get into this foiling thing and see 2 distinctly different foil orientations ??

A typical aeroplane has the main lift producing wing at the front and the smaller ' keep it under control' wing at the back - most foils conform to this 'normal aerodynamics' model BUT -

Some foils are the complete opposite ?? Small wing way out in front of the mast and the 'main wing' close behind the mast ??

I gather as a complete beginner I should be looking for a low profile foil and the standard layout?? What is with the reverse orientation?? ( no I dont want a postal vote!! LOL )

DukeSilver
WA, 128 posts
17 Oct 2017 7:03PM
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You'll want a medium aspect free ride foil. Normal configuration, not canard. Examples are Slingshot Hover Glide and Zeeko Green and White but there are plenty to choose from. You could also go with a low aspect foil like a Liquid Force, Cabrinha Double Agent or Naish Hover. The internet has plenty of info on this subject.

I have the Hover Glide and have found it very easy to learn on and am still enjoying it . The short mast option is a game changer for learning in my experience although there are plenty who poo poo the idea.

horey69
QLD, 185 posts
17 Oct 2017 9:38PM
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DukeSilver said..
You'll want a medium aspect free ride foil. Normal configuration, not canard. Examples are Slingshot Hover Glide and Zeeko Green and White but there are plenty to choose from. You could also go with a low aspect foil like a Liquid Force, Cabrinha Double Agent or Naish Hover. The internet has plenty of info on this subject.

I have the Hover Glide and have found it very easy to learn on and am still enjoying it . The short mast option is a game changer for learning in my experience although there are plenty who poo poo the idea.


I agree with the Duke I too have the hoverglide with the graduated mast program. Plenty of others out there, too much info to plough through, every brand has an entry level talk to your locals that are at your local.

djdojo
VIC, 1433 posts
17 Oct 2017 11:22PM
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Haven't ridden a canard design but the reviews suggest that at least with the bigger wingset the Zeeko Spitfire shouldn't present any problems to beginners.

I learned on a Zeeko Blue and White (now for sale ) with a 90cm mast and strapless board with no worries and now progressed to the carbon version (1m mast), still strapless. I was foiling for decent length runs from my 3rd session onwards, and a shorter mast would have only made the first and second sessions marginally easier (getting used to riding around on the surface with a new appendage underneath), and then been a waste. As soon as you're on the foil the full length mast gives you more flexibility as you learn to regulate your height and navigate chop without ventilating the foil.

Maybe others with less directional experience take longer to get riding but for you Lambie with years of surfboard experience I'm guessing you could go straight to a full length mast...

P.S. I'm a big fan of the safety advantages of strapless foiling, especially for learning - when you start to lose balance, you bail, no temptation to risk ankles and knees trying to muscle it back. You just need to spend a few minutes finding the balance point for manoeuvring the board to a waterstart position with your back hand (and both feet) while keeping the kite at twelve with front hand.

dafish
NSW, 1106 posts
18 Oct 2017 8:07AM
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djdojo said..
Haven't ridden a canard design but the reviews suggest that at least with the bigger wingset the Zeeko Spitfire shouldn't present any problems to beginners.

I learned on a Zeeko Blue and White (now for sale ) with a 90cm mast and strapless board with no worries and now progressed to the carbon version (1m mast), still strapless. I was foiling for decent length runs from my 3rd session onwards, and a shorter mast would have only made the first and second sessions marginally easier (getting used to riding around on the surface with a new appendage underneath), and then been a waste. As soon as you're on the foil the full length mast gives you more flexibility as you learn to regulate your height and navigate chop without ventilating the foil.

Maybe others with less directional experience take longer to get riding but for you Lambie with years of surfboard experience I'm guessing you could go straight to a full length mast...

P.S. I'm a big fan of the safety advantages of strapless foiling, especially for learning - when you start to lose balance, you bail, no temptation to risk ankles and knees trying to muscle it back. You just need to spend a few minutes finding the balance point for manoeuvring the board to a waterstart position with your back hand (and both feet) while keeping the kite at twelve with front hand.


perfect advice

RAL INN
VIC, 2241 posts
18 Oct 2017 8:21AM
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dafish said..

djdojo said..
Haven't ridden a canard design but the reviews suggest that at least with the bigger wingset the Zeeko Spitfire shouldn't present any problems to beginners.

I learned on a Zeeko Blue and White (now for sale ) with a 90cm mast and strapless board with no worries and now progressed to the carbon version (1m mast), still strapless. I was foiling for decent length runs from my 3rd session onwards, and a shorter mast would have only made the first and second sessions marginally easier (getting used to riding around on the surface with a new appendage underneath), and then been a waste. As soon as you're on the foil the full length mast gives you more flexibility as you learn to regulate your height and navigate chop without ventilating the foil.

Maybe others with less directional experience take longer to get riding but for you Lambie with years of surfboard experience I'm guessing you could go straight to a full length mast...

P.S. I'm a big fan of the safety advantages of strapless foiling, especially for learning - when you start to lose balance, you bail, no temptation to risk ankles and knees trying to muscle it back. You just need to spend a few minutes finding the balance point for manoeuvring the board to a waterstart position with your back hand (and both feet) while keeping the kite at twelve with front hand.



perfect advice


Ditto

snalberski
WA, 427 posts
18 Oct 2017 9:59AM
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Lambie said..
I gather as a complete beginner I should be looking for a low profile foil and the standard layout?? What is with the reverse orientation?? ( no I dont want a postal vote!! LOL )




Low aspect foil is what will be useful as a beginner... which fundamentally means a larger area (in relationship to the wing span). I would however get one thats middly.... not too high(race) not too low (super early planning but speed limited). This possibly will give you more use before needing or wanting an upgrade.
I learned on a Sroka which was middle aspect, about the same as the Zeeko Blue and White which looks nice but I haven't ridden. A high volume board assists in learning and general riding. I currently have a Jshapes with the freeride foil which is highly maneuverable - great for carving, boosting and back rolls but provides scary speeds when allowed. It also planes early (about 10knts) . I am also in the 'go strait to the long mast ' camp which is based only on the fact that that is what I and every foilerI know did, not on first hand experience of short mast useage. I'm sure its useful albeit for a short time.
The only foil I've seen with reverse wing placement is the Zeeko Spitfire but it sounds like there may be others. The original blurb with the Spitfire design was that it made carving easier... I know someone that has one and confirmed that but overall his vibe for it wasn't that glowing.
Djdojo's Zeeko Blue and White with a high volume board (straps on the front only for learning) sounds like it would be ideal. Theres also a full carbon Lift for $1400 in the buy and sell which looks the part. North also just brought out the "speedster".... ali mast ,composite carbon wings $1400. Haven't ridden one but its bound to be an improvement on their last dog.

djdojo
VIC, 1433 posts
18 Oct 2017 2:15PM
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^^^ The advantages of a low volume board are two -

Firstly, easier to sink a rail and position the board on its side to waterstart without straps.

Secondly, board tends to dive underwater and stop more quickly when you crash over the front rather than chasing you. In fact you can get into the habit of riding/pushing the nose of the board into the water to stop it completely once you realise you're falling that way anyway.

HeavyInt
NSW, 34 posts
18 Oct 2017 7:34PM
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I am on the Zeeko blue and white also and completely agree with djdojo- only took me 2 crap sessions before I was doing decent runs and by then a shorter mast would have been more hinderance than help - but if you don't learn as quickly or foil in shallow water maybe a shorter mast helps.

Straps vs strapless - I started with one front strap then moved to two loose front straps - it makes it easier to get up - especially for the first few sessions but is no doubt more risky - I did have one or two close calls with ankle twists - but no damage done - so it really becomes a risk vs convenience decision

RAL INN
VIC, 2241 posts
18 Oct 2017 7:57PM
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The canard design as in the Zeeko Spitfire do require some adjusting to and some perseverance before that lightbulb moment when they click.
for the std. spitfire the sensitivity and livelyness probably is an unnecessary extra obstacle for a learner.
the XLW wing set slows everything down and brings it closer to beginner worthy but it would still require that bit more determination to succeed.

certainly spitfires have nicer crashes but more of them.
if a beginner was fully focused on foiling in waves and wanted to work through a steeper learning curve.
the XLW Spitfire will reward you for your efforts.




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"Foil orientation confusion ???" started by Lambie