Hi All,

I'm wondering if one system has an unbeatable edge over the other?

I have only used 4 kites (please, don't laugh) and this is my first season kiting. I like the waves and am happy popping over a few ramps and staying upwind. I'm no candidate for the PKRA.

Ocean Rodeo 12m 2006 C kite.
Rev 11m
Gaastra Jekyll 14m 2008
GK VSonic 11m 2008

The Rev was the only below the bar depower (BTB). but was by far the easiest system to use and the least cluttered. The others were MASSIVE, and out of reach and whilst launching, I had the Gaastra strap get caught on the starboard bar side more than once - talented I know - this can't happen with the rev bar. Also you can fully depower the rev in one go. The OR and GK also but with no handle and a big stretch and with the Gaastra you have to pump a few times to wind the LE in. And you better set it right on the beach, forget it while your on your way, it's just miles away. Since 2008 granted I've heard above the bar (OTBD) has come ahead in leaps and bounds , but one other question i have is - have the BTBDs also advanced at the rate comparably or did they not need too?
I don't rate the Rev the best to fly (for a beginner) of the kites listed, but the depower system, for me was a real winner.


I've heard the grab handles for BTBDs can brain you when unhooked but I don't unhook yet and if I did, I imagine that I could still access depower where as the OTBDs are going to be well out of reach - correct?


I know there is a lot more to bars and lines than BTB or OTB but it would be great to hear what the majority of posting seabreeze kiters feel about these designs and which design seems to be the least problematic, especially if you have used both designs in the latest models. For me now, this is a major consideration when thinking about a new kite after finding that for the 2008 models the BTBD of the models I listed, is streets ahead in terms of ease of use, lack of clutter and winding up.

Looking forward to your views

thanks

As puppet says. Also, it's best to have the same brand/safety system across the range of kites you fly. That way, if things go wrong your first question shouldn't be "Which safety system do I have?" before you react. Time is critical in an emergency.

Mixing brands can create confusion when all you want to do is flag your kite.

I have used both the Naish above the bar (2007) and the Naish below the bar (2011) setups on 4 line kites (Boxer SLE and Helix 2008 - 2009)

The below the bar setup is better in terms of the leash and flagging systems going through the bar, which means no twisting of the leash around the bar and centreline. (Common occurrence when water relaunching, when you put the kite through a "loop" on the water surface) Although, this flagging system could easily be set onto an above the bar system.

In terms of using the depower/power, I found the above the bar setup easier because you adjusted it with the weight of your body rather than using just your arm. Also, if you pull the below the bar depower all the way on to the stopper it can be a real pig to get the rope out of the jam cleat when you want to power the kite back up.

However, you get a lot more depower out of the below the bar setup.

In summary, the below the bar setup is cleaner and I believe safer, but the above the bar is easier to make adjustments with.

I find the BTBD system on my SS Octane virtually impossible to release when it's under tension, to the point where I sometimes have to put the kite in the drink to adjust it. Othertimes (memorably once in the surf in about 25kts) it releases itself to 0 depower, usually following a stack when a fair bit of depower is on. And it can bite when adjusting if a gust hits and pulls the line through to jam your hand between the knob and the cleat.
Other than that, I'm very happy with it!

pattiecannon said...

I've been looking at the BWS and they do look awesome, having both as an option is a great move and cleats are way cleaner system. Do you buy the bar as one or the other or can you change it around?

The New Undertow Bars from BWS are either ATB or BTB - no swapping and changing in the design. We are ordering them in as different items.
BUT; as you have raised the idea; I'll check them out more thoroughly. Maybe you can ? even if they are packaged up as either/or.

the main problem with the btb is some people can not pull them, leverage

the main problem with the atb is some people can not reach them
but some of the atb setups are adjustable for reach, like the North. you can set it exactly where you like it. So, not really a problem....

If you have an issue with above the bar systems, try find one which has an adjustable option to move the strap closer or further. The north bar as an example allows you to move the depower rope closer to you but you can shift it further away if you need the extra depower room for gusty days. There are also other options like the new Zeeko bar which looks pretty nifty and doesn't have a rope at all so its worth considering as an aftermarket option.

I agree with what Knotwindy said, its hard to get leverage with the BTB, I have only used them on Slingy Rev2's. Have had the same scenario, having to land the kite to unjam, or reset the trim. If you really have it pulled in then the rope and stopper do flop around a fair bit. Never been hit by it, but I could see it happening.
Also, during days where the wind is swinging wildly, when you have your depower set, and the wind dies it becomes really hard to uncleat the rope because of the lack of tension from the angle of attack. You can pull and pull but all you end up doing is making the kite dance.
I liked my old Rebel system, I have short arms so I could adjust my throw easily, had a GK sonic and didnt mind the the way the strapped worked, I customized the throw so it was always in reach. I guess I would prefer anything above bar.

Thanks again guys,

I've managed to get the kites and different bars out in some of the few hours of wind that has arrived in the last month and I have made a decision about ATBDeeps vs BTBDeeps as it relates to me.

BTBD is the way of the future.

Probably in 10 years people will laugh at the kites with ATBD of our days here.
My reasoning, that it is not the most developed and popular system, is that SS would have a patent on it and nobody can cost effectively produce their own version without having to cut a deal with them. Also then it becomes easier to hoodwink the general kiting public who are reasonably loyal to their brands and the 'clubs' they learn't with into the hype that is prevalent which is that BTBD sux.
Totally commercially oriented hype smoke and mirrors if you ask me.
Do away with the patent and they would all be telling you how they came up with the design and why everybody is copying them! Do the few mobs about producing it give a nod to SS when they spiel their own BTBD blurb which may look exactly like an SS system. No.

ATBD is inferior.
Here's why.

Limitations ATBD
1.
I've had the straps wrap around one side of the control bar numerous times on beach starts, water starts and loops an it is really dangerous (yes I am really dangerous, but limit my access to dangerous toys and I am a lot more beach goer friendly)
I have been so lucky no-one was on the beach where my kite smashed down whilst i'm sand skiing trying to unhitch the tangled up line - night mare.

2. when you are racing along the ocean it's bumpy and things can be a bit of a blur then it gusts an you wanna sheet out you have to stick your hand into the middle of a mess of straps and pull the right one - if you can remember which one that is, I mean one sends it up one pulls it in - you've got to be joking. This is pre-historic to be dealing with this garbage. BTBD - one line - in or out. Man up, Yank it in . easy.

3. on full sheet out and depower the straps are flopping all over you hands - this is just dumb and totally unsafe an annoying.

4. sheeting the bar out I have jammed my hand on the bottom of the ATBD system - crapness!

5. It's a visual mess in your face.

6. the depower 'oh ****' release only goes to the start of the front lines in a lot of cases with the manufacturers so 100% depower is not a reality in many cases as it is with my Gaastra.

and i haven't numbered this point as it is only a guess but if you have one of the adjustable ATBD systems your throw on the bar is now limited. Square one. Please correct me here if i'm wrong

Vs

Limitations BTBD as mentioned by the kiting folk here. (I haven't found any)

1. it is a bit hard to pull out. - but Honestly, using good technique as described by woodys and myself, this is not an issue for me and I'm not Hulk Hogan. 70kg of scrawny qlder in northern rivers.

2. It can jam up in the power zone. This does sound bad, but if you're not headed for a rock wall you should have time to use the Woody's technique and pull her in. I haven't had it out in wind this strong but again the under hand technique engages a lot of your larger upper body muscles so it has never totally 'ripped away' and gone to full power un intentionally. in a video by BWS he says to always leave at least 2" of leader hanging out. With this in mind it is rare I ever find the cleat up against the clam and when it was it definitely wasn't jammed shut.

3. Can get brained by the cleat whilst unhooked. (Only heard this, I haven't unhooked yet)

4. Whilst unhooked Deeps line can wrap around the place. (Only heard this, I haven't unhooked yet)


BTBD news I am currently learning

Liquid force have been using BTBD for a while now.
Griffin are offering it.
Naish have it widely available as mentioned here - thanks LostInLondon

This is only a very small group of producers when you look at the list of producers in the market.
I have even seen Switch Kites site where it simply states 'because Below the Bar Depower Sucks'
That is as dumb, stupid, ignorant and close minded a statement as I have ever heard online anywhere. Pure self justification and no fact to back it up. Marketing Hype, brain bullying garbage. I heard the Switch Guy started the company with a lot of money from his previous career during his first season of kiting! Now he runs his whole company from a lap top in Indo never having a hand in the production since day 1 and yet he knows so much more about kites than the guys at Naish and SS - nice one. Again, please correct me if i'm wrong here. Kudos for enterprise and attitude, definitely well done there but get real with the spiel, Statements like this just retard the growth of ingenuity.

Please counter any of the statements I have listed here as these are simply the facts as I see them and not the definitive truth of things in the world of Deeps.

Thanks heaps to all contributors here.

Cheers

pattiecannon said...

Please counter any of the statements I have listed here as these are simply the facts as I see them and not the definitive truth of things in the world of Deeps.

easy . you only have one season kiting , therefore your statements are null and void .

dusta said...

easy . you only have one season kiting , therefore your statements are null and void .

Haha, that's what i'm talking about Dusta! but a few examples would be handy too m8. Otherwise I'm gonna think all the things i've listed are valid and that's what i'll tell even newer kiters than me. There's always someone down the line....that's how it goes.

Thanks vwpete my mates have also said the cab bar is awesome. It does look to me like the throw of the bar is limited by the position of the Depower toggles? or can it run up past them?

Thanks fellas

This forum is to help people decide what gear would suit them best and inspire constructive debate about systems available in an informative way. You're just **** stirring. If you have an opinion based on facts then state them or go to another forum mate.

pattiecannon said...
If you have an opinion based on facts then state them or go to another forum mate.

eh wtf , i made it pretty clear i have tried both and prefer atb . how is that not an opinion based on facts ?

You seem like one of those people who reads one book on a subject and then bleats on like they are a ****ing expert

lol you will be hard pressed to find much constructive debate around here pattie, I think you got the wrong forum this one is about sharing the stoke or something.
As for the above or below depower I prefer above and have had both.
I found below the bar wraps around the bar when unhooked and is an awkward angle. Also the atbd doesn't limit the throw of the bar the limit on this is the kites ability to change it's angle of attack.
The depower cleat or strap is for adjusting where your arms rest when comfortably powered. Finally have a look at ozones system with only a single depower line going through the bar. Perfect.
By the way I pulled one of my old bars out to scavenge for parts and had to laugh when I noticed I had shortened my depower line down to 2 inches long.

Thanks hunter, maybe Laurie should have a design forum for geek convos like I wanna have?
Good idea no?
I really appreciate your info m8, Kitethrills backed the Reo solidly and your point may well be one of the big reasons why. To me this issue is of maximum importance to a kites performance. What good is a Formula One (lol) kite when you have a Hyundai steering wheel?

I don't totally unnerstand what you mean by,
"Also the atbd doesn't limit the throw of the bar the limit on this is the kites ability to change it's angle of attack."
Some kites adjust more or less due to their bridle and plan shape arrangements?
So, same bar, different kite will make the bar behave way different? Cool, never thought of that. Thanks.
Looks like the Ozone will get another look. it'll be interesting how the Wave Tour turns out this year.
BW would be stoked about your 2'! That is some tiny amount of adjustment TH, Feck what's going on there? Full Power! BTW was that on the Ozone you did that?

Subculture said...

pattiecannon said...

Is this a kindagarden kindergarten class?

All get from you is FIGJAM...

"F**k I Get Jack All Man"???

haha thanks for the grammar lesson thrown in SC lol

Hey I owe you an apology cause I arked up about another comment and didn't even notice you had made a constructive and helpful reply about Ozone, Air-Rush push/ pull and the current state of the swing back towards ATBD . Thanks for the help there SC. I'm not familiar with this system (clearly) but the Ozone name is popping up again which is interesting.

As for my attitude, I'll let you be the judge should we ever have the luck to be kiting in the same place SC.