Hats off to Dale..... he was the fastest by a country mile & deserves the win.

You can't say that so and so would have one - had he not been disqualified.... If the so and so started in front of everyone else.

Anyway.... Next year there will be others that jump the start and get disqualified and we will have this same conversation all over again.

The only thing that was disappointing, was that, if it were true, disqualified racers were not made aware that they had been disqualified until after the race had been completely finished and the results announced.

Reminds me of the Gran Prix that Senna was disqualified for hours after he crossed the line in 1st place. Guys should be told asap when they are no longer in the competition.

!4:58'45 was the time the first (official) kiter finished, the race started at 14:30 so just over 28 minutes.
The wind was only around 13-15 knots I think, (perfect conditions for a 16mtr kite if you had one )

"It's then up to the competitor to decide if he or she is over and restart the race. If you fail to restart the race and you are over the line then you are disqualified."

Yup. A time penalty is a ridiculous idea and impossible to police, also the person that jumps the start can wind shadow those behind them and also block tack/shadow them the whole way around the course.

The L2L will become a world famous (already is no doubt) kite racing classic, it will evolve, discussion by kiters will help that process and improve the race.

... its like Sydney to Hobart, lots of us wanna give it a crack!

Kitepower Australia said...

dachopper said...

Hats off to Dale..... he was the fastest by a country mile & deserves the win.

You can't say that so and so would have one - had he not been disqualified.... If the so and so started in front of everyone else.

Anyway.... Next year there will be others that jump the start and get disqualified and we will have this same conversation all over again.

The only thing that was disappointing, was that, if it were true, disqualified racers were not made aware that they had been disqualified until after the race had been completely finished and the results announced.

Reminds me of the Gran Prix that Senna was disqualified for hours after he crossed the line in 1st place. Guys should be told asap when they are no longer in the competition.

I don't think we will be having the same conversation because I will not be participating!
The judging decision is quite clear. My posts are simply to stimulate some thought on how to do things better.
The point you have raised is a very important one too, from what I understand Hudson was not aware that he had been DQ'ed until Dale went onto the podium, there's room for improvement there as you say.

Can anyone recall what Hudsons margin to Dale was? I was told it was nearly 2 mins, if that were true, then DQ is a harsh decision IMO, thats why I'm suggesting some additional flexibility be written into the rules.

A 5-10 second jump at the start does not equate to a finish margin of around 2 mins, this guy was the fastest if thats the case and I think it should be recognised.

This is a difficult topic, because Dale has been awarded the race title ahead of his team mate, and whats done is done (and well done to Dale!). Its only by discussion of prickly issues like this that a more evolved decision making process can occur.

The L2L will become a world famous (already is no doubt) kite racing classic, it will evolve, discussion by kiters will help that process and improve the race.

@IanDVNT - the race is not a traditional course, and blocking tactics are not going to work very well in a race like this. I'm not suggesting that a time penalty be a general rule for start jumpers, its easy to see how that would be easily exploited.

@ Underoath - no one is making excuses, no one is asking for a different decision, and no one is suggesting Hudson did not false start. The race committee rules are clear.

The thing is.... if you start in the front of the pack before the race has started, and you do a flying start, you are already up to maximum speed, and have got no issues with where you put your kite, or where you want to ride, or how you want to hit the waves. 10 seconds ahead of someone, going 25kts, vs 40 other people stealing wind, unable to do power strokes, covering each other, bobbing in the water at zero knots, and taking forever to get to max speed as a result.... makes a massive difference.

Dale did get blocked on the start line, as I am sure other people did.... and then he was forced to cover for a long time. How much faster would he have been, if he did a flying start 10 seconds before everyone else, without any blocking or covering required.... impossible to say, except he would have been significantly further ahead of where he came.

The reality is that the rules as they stand, clearly take care of this. Just like when in the Sydney to Hobart a few years back one of the maxi's broke, and had to go back, and as a result came second. Breaking always gives you an advantage, and trying to quantify it with a time penalty, doesn't really work as u are no longer suffering the effects of being in the pack , where as forcing the guy to restart, and have to put up with the blocking / covering etc etc etc... is actually fair as he is in the same race then and not on his own private speed run.

If you roll the dice and try and get every advantage at the start, that's what it's about & is good as it can pay off if it comes off perfect, I would have sat near the start boat and blocked everyones' view of the start flags with my kite personally - plenty more would have jumped. But trying to time penalize something that is hard to qualify because he's not getting blocked... does not work in sailing, for the above reasons, the only fair thing to do, is force him to re-round and fight through the pack, like 1st place getter did.

I think the average was more like 28kts too

With all this start line stuff, before we go re inventing the wheel so to speak and come up with new rules that sound great.
Kite racing should be looking towards the sailing rules, these have evolved over a hundred years and are tried and tested and work

There are plenty of sports that get more than one crack if they stuff up.
Take a sprinter, they can restart a race if someone breaks the start, three strikes and your out and they have a line drawn on the ground 5mm in front of them!

With sailing the start line is not a white line you can see in front of you to be clear about it.
With craft either side of you, you may not even be able to see either end of the start line, hell the line can even be moving by 2 or 3 feet as the boat is moving around on it's anchor.
We are not sitting there with the brakes on waiting for a green light in front of us. We have waves, wind gusts and other craft jostling for position and we are supposed to keep clear of each other and the green light is behind our back, we deserve a bit of slack because of all these variables

I believe it is unfair to use some of the sailing rules but exclude others, they all work together to give every competitor a fair go and the penalties always penalise the competitor more than he gained for what ever infringement he made.

Imagine a boat coming from half way around the world for the Sydney to Hobart and he is forced over the start by another competitor, he maybe only 1 second over the line, re starting by going around the end of the start line will put him maybe a min or two behind, that is a big penalty for only being 1 second over, but the rules work and are fair and take all the other factors into account remember a champion will rise to the top

It is possible if you are close to the start line that some craft can be pushed over by someone below you calling you up, that is another rule were you have to stay clear of competitors downwind of you and this may mean going over the line.
In this scenario the race officials do not notify an individual competitor they have crossed the line, but just indicate by way of flag and or horn, but it is up to each competitor to make a judgement whether it was them, if they think is was them then it would be a clear case where the competitor deserves the right to penalise himself by rerounding the start line.
This allows the race to continue as planned without a general recall of the whole fleet. There will still be a protest lodged by officials, If two people are over and only one re rounds the start line then old mate just stands up and says he followed the rules and penalised himself already, if the officials can verify this fact the other guy will be out and has to cop it on the chin, they move onto the next protest and declare a winner!

Personally I think anybody saying you should be out of the race if you are over an imaginary line has never actually done any competition sailing in their life.
These people do not know all the rules, if they wish to participate they will need to learn them, no good knowing your port from starboard and forget about the rest!

But most importantly what ever happens on the day we have to be thankfull there is a guy willing to be on a start boat rather than actually kiting and we all have the same rules to go by so have no one else to blame but ourselves if we get it wrong

Lets race

wdric said...


These people do not know all the rules, if they wish to participate they will need to learn them, no good knowing your port from starboard and forget about the rest!

Good to see some common sense in some of these posts. Once you start to race it becomes a sailing race, follow the sailing rules. I've been to many regattas where sabot's, 18ft skiffs, sailboards & catamarans race following the same standard sailing rules, what the sailing community call the blue book.

In many sailing classes/clubs they adapt the rules to suit situations, i.e. in my local 16ft skiff racing anyone over the start line early then it's a general recall, the second time anyone is over early they get black flagged i.e. go home, your dsq'd.

If you don't want to be disqualified for crossing early then don't get so bloody close to the start line! This is all part of the skill of racing, know the rules and know how to control you craft at slow and fast speeds in tight conditions, a 10 second lead off the start will make or break any race.

Kitepower Australia said...
Can anyone recall what Hudsons margin to Dale was? I was told it was nearly 2 mins, if that were true, then DQ is a harsh decision IMO, thats why I'm suggesting some additional flexibility be written into the rules.

A 5-10 second jump at the start does not equate to a finish margin of around 2 mins, this guy was the fastest if thats the case and I think it should be recognised.

Steve I don't you or Hudson or your realtionship with Hudson but before you go awarding Hudson the faster kiter of the day award go through every competitors time.

Reading the L2L posts Johnnokeys (who I also don't know) nightmare started at the start line and cost him 9min. He then had to kite through God knows how many kiters on the course and he came in 33rd position in a time of 34:10 so he actually covered the course in ~25 minutes say ~2min in front of Hudson who had a clear run so Johnno may have been the fastest.

Fortunately Johnnokeys who could well have won was over it before he even finished the race.

Hudson didn't win get over it.

wdric said...

With all this start line stuff, before we go re inventing the wheel so to speak and come up with new rules that sound great.
Kite racing should be looking towards the sailing rules, these have evolved over a hundred years and are tried and tested and work

There are plenty of sports that get more than one crack if they stuff up.
Take a sprinter, they can restart a race if someone breaks the start, three strikes and your out and they have a line drawn on the ground 5mm in front of them!

With sailing the start line is not a white line you can see in front of you to be clear about it.
With craft either side of you, you may not even be able to see either end of the start line, hell the line can even be moving by 2 or 3 feet as the boat is moving around on it's anchor.
We are not sitting there with the brakes on waiting for a green light in front of us. We have waves, wind gusts and other craft jostling for position and we are supposed to keep clear of each other and the green light is behind our back, we deserve a bit of slack because of all these variables

I believe it is unfair to use some of the sailing rules but exclude others, they all work together to give every competitor a fair go and the penalties always penalise the competitor more than he gained for what ever infringement he made.

Imagine a boat coming from half way around the world for the Sydney to Hobart and he is forced over the start by another competitor, he maybe only 1 second over the line, re starting by going around the end of the start line will put him maybe a min or two behind, that is a big penalty for only being 1 second over, but the rules work and are fair and take all the other factors into account remember a champion will rise to the top

It is possible if you are close to the start line that some craft can be pushed over by someone below you calling you up, that is another rule were you have to stay clear of competitors downwind of you and this may mean going over the line.
In this scenario the race officials do not notify an individual competitor they have crossed the line, but just indicate by way of flag and or horn, but it is up to each competitor to make a judgement whether it was them, if they think is was them then it would be a clear case where the competitor deserves the right to penalise himself by rerounding the start line.
This allows the race to continue as planned without a general recall of the whole fleet. There will still be a protest lodged by officials, If two people are over and only one re rounds the start line then old mate just stands up and says he followed the rules and penalised himself already, if the officials can verify this fact the other guy will be out and has to cop it on the chin, they move onto the next protest and declare a winner!

Personally I think anybody saying you should be out of the race if you are over an imaginary line has never actually done any competition sailing in their life.
These people do not know all the rules, if they wish to participate they will need to learn them, no good knowing your port from starboard and forget about the rest!

But most importantly what ever happens on the day we have to be thankfull there is a guy willing to be on a start boat rather than actually kiting and we all have the same rules to go by so have no one else to blame but ourselves if we get it wrong

Lets race

Excellent reply Ric!
Ric is a super competitive racer in our local series, organised and run pretty much by myself (but with grateful thanks to all those that do help me!) I'm not organising a L2L, but this is my second race series and I'm passionate to see this aspect of our sport evolve and gain credibility within the greater sailing community.

Speaking with another of the local competitors who is rapidly improving and who comes from a background of yacht racing, his suggestion was for a secondary rounding mark. So anyone that jumps and that can be identified and notified - has to go around this secondary start mark, or be dq'ed.
Something like that could be incorporated, easily. If they get to the end of the race without being notified they infringed the starting rules, then they should be notified asap, once they hit the beach, there was room for improvement on this point.

@Dachopper - thanks also for an excellent civil reply, I do understand and I've already reiterated that a time penalty would not work.

@Slack - I get it, I know Johhno and I understand he is a very capable competitor too. I'm just suggesting reasons that this starting sequence and penalties could be made better and fairer. Hudson is a hard working business associate and very keen kiter and windsurfer, I respect his ability and passion, thats all.

Woah. This is unexpected.

The situation is pretty simple. I didn't win. Not even close. I false started and was disqualified. Like others have already said, those are the rules and they were clear from the beginning.

I had a great time on the day and it was a great experience.

I am super stoked that Dale won. He deserves all the credit for his victory. Well done mate.

Congratulations also to Marty and all the other competitors that make it such a great event.

Lastly, my opinion is that the rules are good the way they are.

Thanks,
Hudson

On start line an totally inexperienced racer/kiter looped his kite through my lines as I passed him on line, he was stalled and bogging on line( he should have given way to everyone as he was making no progress on line before start) and didn't realise 30 kiters were passing him, our kites tangles and dropped into briny. As he told me later he didn't even know he was on the pin end of start ( that is up wind end of line closest to starting mark we were only metres from boat as he tangled me I was doing about 15 knots) and he had 30 kiters around him. Thats racing. Yes many gps programmes all have peak times , averages etc. Great for CR racing as you can kites by yourself and still push yourself. But racing in a pack is always the best experience as things just happen you never expected.

My mistake was not to realise how many kiters had no idea of racing rules I reckon about 80% to 90%, even if the officals rant on about the rules many times before race, the experienced racers just seem to freak out on start line. As proven by all the kiters who broke start and why this thread is running.

IMO after all of that I still reckon the format is perfect, super for all kiters, you get exciting starts, only way to start 110 kites on the ocean, a great race and all can have a go, I reckon the more experienced racers just have to avoid the pack of noobs. 1st one across the line ( that starts correctly) wins it. Go the Hobo. ( thats Dale by the way)