I have been using pump up kites started out on c kites and now use sle kites but am thinking of getting a foil.
I kite most of the time in the waves and have seen other foils out which all ways seem to be a lot larger in size to the pump up kites out on the same day.
Do they measure foils the sme way as pump ups?
Do foils turn as fast as pump ups?
Do foils back stall?
Other than than having no bladders what are the advantages of foils?
Do foils have a good wind range like sle kites?

Thanks

Hi Undone,

Following some answers to your questions based on my observations:


Do they measure foils the sme way as pump ups?

It depends on the foil and to which SLE/BOW you compare it. E.g. I think my Switchblade2 10 has a bit (not much) more power than a 10 sqm. P3 but probably less power than a 10 sqm S2. But a 19 Sqm S2 has definetly much more power and is more efficient than a comparable Bow (Is there a comparable BOW???).


Do foils turn as fast as pump ups?

I think in general Bows/SLE turn faster than a Foil. Same as above the SB2 10 is much faster in the turns than a P3 10 or S2 10. But again on the other hand a SA19 turns faster than most 16 sqm Bows. Tried a SB1 16 (BOW) the other day and this kite was definetely much slower than the SA19 which needs to be compared to a 26 sqm C shape or 20-22 sqm Bow.

Do foils back stall?

Some do.. some not and for some it depends on the setup. A P3 has a backstall and I tried a Pulse 2 in 10 which did backstall as well. The Speed 2 in general do not backstall but if they are tuned in the wrong way you can get a backstall. It is almost impossible even with a very agressive tuning to get the SA19 backstalling.

Other than having no bladders what are the advantages of foils?

Oh... Oh... this question has a some potential to raise the boring discussion about Foils vs Tubes again. But to have an hopefully unbiased view:

Pros:
- Tubes are faster
- Tubes are slightly easier to relaunch
- Tubes are less prone to get bridle tangles (C's even better)
- Tubes are boosting more aggressive.
- Tubes are more directly to fly.
- Foils have a more efficient profile and weight/size ratio which leads to following advantages:
- FS Speed 2 have more hangtime compared to same size Bows
- Big FS Speed 2 (S2 15/19 SA19) are much better in lightwind conditions
- Foils (FS Speed 2 and Psycho 3) are Boosting smoother
- Foils do not need to be pumped up.... faster and less exhausting setup especially for big Kites > 15 sqm.

Cons:
- Tubes need to be pumped up
- Tubes are prone to get holes in their bladder
- Tubes are not as aerodynamical efficient as foils which leads to an inferior low end and less hangtime
- Foils have a spongy/ not as direct feeling as tubes
- Foils are more exposed to get tangled bridles
- Foils are slightly more difficult to relaunch.

These are my observations. At the end of the day you should try both and decide what will fit best to your riding style / personal preferences. If you prefer going fast for fast wakestyle tricks and you like the fast responsive/aggressive feel of a C/Bow than go for a tube kite. If you like long and high jumps and you often have lightwind days where you would like to go kitesurfing than go for a foil.

Or do it like me, go for a big foil for the lightwind days and have some nice Bows for the stronger days. Thats for ME the best combination.

Cheers

Granini

fly one ,decide for yourself

I have flown flysurfer (Warrior) and inflatables (Best Nemises) for a couple of years now. The flysurfer 10m is the same as the best 10m and 14m combined. I only needed 1 kite with the flysurfer but 2 inflatables (C kites) to cover the same wind range.

So comparing power between the 2 is very difficult as the flysurfer has a much larger range.

I have recently flown the new pulse and is light years ahead of the Warrior so i bought one. On the demo flight i was sceptical of keeping up wind there were minimum 14m inflatables out at brighton wind was about 13-15kts and i was on the pulse 10 stayed upwind i am 90kg with 138 x 39 twin tip. I felt i would still have struggled with my nemisis 14m but would have had to work the kite constantly to stay upwind.


The Best 10m turns quicker than the the pulse and is on par with a 12-14m in a powered up situation.
This shows the profile.






I now am selling my 2 inflatables. I am lazy and the quick set up time and simple relaunch suits me. 1 kite for 90% of the time is just for me.

Peter Lynn Arcs are foils.
Flysurfers are foils.
They are nothing alike.

My Peter Lynn Venom 19m had less power than my Flysurfer P3 13m. Size vs Power would have to be compared on a Per Kite basis. Tubes and Foils have so many different variants that it is too inaccurate to generalise.

cheers
mike

My Venom2s definitely don't have the low end of similarly sized tubes, but the top end performance and gust handling is infinitely better. Having spent some decent time now flying my V2s side by side with my '08 Waroos, my observations:

The Waroos jump higher and hang longer, but the V2s have a softer landing.
The Waroos have much better low end, but the V2s have superb upper wind range.
The Waroos are twitchy/punchy in really gusty wind, but the V2s just soak it up.
The Waroos are very sensitive to sheeting adjustments, but the V2s provide smoother, more constant power through the whole range.

I really do like having the option of choosing either kite, based on the conditions. In weather that I wouldn't have previously bothered going out in (17kts gusting to 29kts), I have no reservations about putting up the 10M V2.

Here is a little vid' with both foils and tube... and at the end of the day everyone happy, isn't it all what matters?

kiteforum.com/viewforum.php?f=200/index.php?option=com_videos&task=show&id=2254&Itemid=
(apologies for the shaky images... our first video... will hopefully improve both imgae quality and tricks next time!)

robbo said...

funny topic, always pops up.
i dont believe they have the same grunt.
i took a 13m (05 i think) venom out the other day and just managed to stay upwind, and i was workin it like i hated it - which of course drags you downwind on every stroke.

swapped to a 11m 07 waroo and was staying upwing with ease - mainly because it was just parked in the sky most of the time.

i think your weight plays a big part with foils - they're better for lighter ppl.


just my opinion having compared the two again recently.

One thing you REALLY have to look at with this too is you're comparing an 05 kite to an 07, that's almost like running a stock kingswood against a new HSV.

Not having a go, but you really need to keep in mind the amount of change in technology as Kites are still pretty new in their development, so every year counts a GREAT deal.

D