That's the thing - wind energy (work done) is based on 'Air Density', 'Wind Velocity' and 'Projected Area' the weight and stiffness of the material has nothing to do with these things. The only thing that would give this kite more power is the aeorodynamics due to the smaller diameter LE - it still wouldn't be as efficient as a twin skin foil. Possibly the kite will fly faster and generate a bit more pull depending on it's AR etc.
The kite will definitely stay aloft better because of the weight advantage. This is the same reason that big LE kites are generally cr%p because they want to fall outa the sky cause they weigh so damn much. It's also the same reason that twin skins will generally stay aloft in lighter winds cause they don't have the weight of bladders and stuff.

Sprooking on about its incredible power only serves to show the spookers incredible ignorance to the physical world - but it was a fun thread

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Originally posted by Surgeon

That's the thing - wind energy (work done) is based on 'Air Density', 'Wind Velocity' and 'Projected Area' the weight and stiffness of the material has nothing to do with these things. The only thing that would give this kite more power is the aeorodynamics due to the smaller diameter LE - it still wouldn't be as efficient as a twin skin foil. Possibly the kite will fly faster and generate a bit more pull depending on it's AR etc.
The kite will definitely stay aloft better because of the weight advantage. This is the same reason that big LE kites are generally cr%p because they want to fall outa the sky cause they weigh so damn much. It's also the same reason that twin skins will generally stay aloft in lighter winds cause they don't have the weight of bladders and stuff.

Sprooking on about its incredible power only serves to show the spookers incredible ignorance to the physical world - but it was a fun thread

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Hmmm my understanding is challenged... So by your logic if I evenly distributed 2kg of weight around a kite and compared it to the non weighted kite they would both have the same pull at the bar in the same wind? Where is the hole in your statement about work done? Think of the kite as a system of which the only work worth examining is that done on the bar by the kite. Aren't you missing a few components?

If you challenge anothers perception of the physical world you are demonstrating that you believe your perception to be correct. Don't mistake a truth for a belief, for your perception is yours and no one elses. True for your self but just a belief in the eyes of others. Truth is accepting that what you know is only what you believe to be correct! The only ignorance is thinking there is a difference.

Dave.

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If you challenge anothers perception of the physical world you are demonstrating that you believe your perception to be correct. Don't mistake a truth for a belief, for your perception is yours and no one elses. True for your self but just a belief in the eyes of others. Truth is accepting that what you know is only what you believe to be correct! The only ignorance is thinking there is a difference.

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Hi Danger Dave, mmmm my understanding is also challenged – a kite is a complex blend of physical forces and though your statement is correct as to the weight of the kite affecting the pull at the bar you know that the weight in the scheme of things has a reasonably insignificant effect. You could quite possible receive a more pronounced change in bar forces by simply adding a tail to the kite.

To put these figures into perspective for a basic kite (sled) a reduction of fabric weight of 49% would equate to an increase bar pull of some 13% in the same system the addition of a 75mm tail would equate to similar increases in bar forces.

I suppose this will be the next breakthrough in kite design.

Hang a big tail on it and it’ll pull like a mule – nah jes jokin – with out knowin all the AOA and trim set ups its jes pure speculation – but the example above is true

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Originally posted by Surgeon

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If you challenge anothers perception of the physical world you are demonstrating that you believe your perception to be correct. Don't mistake a truth for a belief, for your perception is yours and no one elses. True for your self but just a belief in the eyes of others. Truth is accepting that what you know is only what you believe to be correct! The only ignorance is thinking there is a difference.

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Hi Danger Dave, mmmm my understanding is also challenged – a kite is a complex blend of physical forces and though your statement is correct as to the weight of the kite affecting the pull at the bar you know that the weight in the scheme of things has a reasonably insignificant effect. You could quite possible receive a more pronounced change in bar forces by simply adding a tail to the kite.

To put these figures into perspective for a basic kite (sled) a reduction of fabric weight of 49% would equate to an increase bar pull of some 13% in the same system the addition of a 75mm tail would equate to similar increases in bar forces.

I suppose this will be the next breakthrough in kite design.

Hang a big tail on it and it’ll pull like a mule – nah jes jokin – with out knowin all the AOA and trim set ups its jes pure speculation – but the example above is true

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Its an interesting mind we all share!
You do not need wind by your definition of it, to fly a kite, think about that before you say BS?

Adding a tail to a kite does add weight and drag to the overal structure, but it does not add to what we seek as kite flyers does it?

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

L=(1/2)dv2sCL

L = Lift, which must equal the airplane's weight in pounds
d = density of the air. This will change due to altitude.
v = velocity of an aircraft expressed in feet per second
s = the wing area of an aircraft in square feet
CL = Coefficient of lift , which is determined by the type of airfoil and angle of attack.


You do the maths.

If only we could kite without wind...

How much easier would that make our life... Not worrying about wind speed... Only have the one or two kites we need... Not having to check predictions for the following weekend... And then there's the tide that some of us have to worry about... wrong tide, and no kiting... oh, way to much to think about...

Then there's always the trusty cableski park we can go to if all else fails...

Goodwinds 4 all

Elizabeth - Wello Grommit

WHY doesnt anyone believe..........a kite that can do all this and no-one believes what is wrong......

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Ahhh Eisenstein’s theory is alive and well – but you do need wind to fly a kite – the mode to which it is generated is the only question. The original quote is true

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Hang on, there goes a pig... sh1t, it is windy today!
What theory of Einstein's would that be? The BS is starting to smell...

Steve,

I wasn't being rude about your comments, I was talking about poorrelatives comments... that what I was saying was rubbish... cuz he was just being immature.. i understand what u were saying... sorry 4 the confusion....

Elizabeth - Wello Grommit

OK. on the physics dept. side, your ordinary honey bee "can not" fly!

As far as our knowledge of aerodynamics is concerned the humble bumble bee is as aerodynamic as a pig and yet he still flys.

I think that our "real truths" and "beliefs" are only short lived values at best, so as far as flying kites, just fly a kite.

Life is short and flying kites is supposed to be purely for fun.

Remember Steve - 'He who points a finger has three fingers pointing right back at them'

Have a nice day and lighten up I know everyone should just listen to you, but they don't aye - go figure

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Originally posted by Surgeon

Remember Steve - 'He who points a finger has three fingers pointing right back at them'

Have a nice day and lighten up I know everyone should just listen to you, but they don't aye - go figure

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Its great that you pointed that out to us Surgeon, can you see the other 3 pointing back at you?

How do you know everyone should listen to me, thats incredible.
I tend to agree with you , however I have this lifelong feeling that all people prefer to listen to this other frequency, called WIIFM!!!!!!

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack
www.kitepower.com.au

Nice one DangerDave – although I considered correcting your bogus assumptions, I reckon I’d have more fun if I showed you to a mirror and got you to stand in front of it and say ‘you’re dogmatic’ the argument would no doubt rage for hours.

The problem with the internet is that skimmers like you try to hang off the coat tails of the theories developed by enquiring minds without ever taking the time to comprehend wot you are reading.

The thought that some dude in the 1600’s could pen a theory that would go unchallenged and unaltered to this day is only matched by your perpetuating of the false force ‘Centrifugal Force’ on the other thread where you are leading the charge of the Google searchers.

Why don’t you read Einstein’s theory’s and come on back to the discussion once you understand the modifications he made to the Newtonian theories which allowed your hero’s theories to be applied to things smaller than cannon balls.

Dave you are right – relatively – have a nice day

Hmmm. The tech stuff gets me in. There are a few issues here.

Firstly the weight issue: All other things being equal, if we look at Nothsides equation from a little earlier on we can see that the mass of a kite is going to make very little diff to the power at the bar (Lift). Obviously if a kite weighs 1kg extra there will be something like 1kg less force but in the scheme of things this means little to a kite that can pull my arse out of the water at 2G.

What the reduction in weight can do is increase the acceleration (both angluar and linear) that a kite can achieve. This means less time from a stalled condition to travelling at full speed through the window. If the kite is half the weight, it will (roughly) go from zero to lit in half the time. It will also turn a heap faster. It's the same as any sports car. It's the power to weight ratio that determines your acceleration. However, because the geometry is the same, the lift and top-end speed will be the same.

Another advantage of a half (say) weight kite is that when the kite slams into the surface, the impact loads that bust your bladders will be about half. This means you can build the kite even lighter - cool eh?

Of course in the really light winds when a kite is stuggling to keep it's own weight above the horizon, any reduction in mass is helpful. But this is a different issue.

What I find more interesting than the weight issue is the stiffness leading to a reduced bladder diameter. The LEI bladder is a big drouge that just reduces the efficiency of the foil. If you can reduce it you can get a way better foil that can offer either more pull or more upwind ability. The designers get to choose which when they select a foil cross section. This reduced bladder size is what will really make the performance difference.

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Originally posted by NorthSide

L=(1/2)dv2sCL

L = Lift, which must equal the airplane's weight in pounds
d = density of the air. This will change due to altitude.
v = velocity of an aircraft expressed in feet per second
s = the wing area of an aircraft in square feet
CL = Coefficient of lift , which is determined by the type of airfoil and angle of attack.


You do the maths.

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If Lift must equal the "airplane's" weight, would it not mean the weight of BOTH kite and rider?

Then with a ~75kg rider, and a 2-3 kg kite, even cutting the weight of the kite in half has a pretty small impact on the amount of Lift required.

Now if various claims about a "lighter kite being SO much better" it leads me to think that either:

a) there are far more important forces at work than pure lift as in a wing in which the weight of the kite is more significant

or

b) the hype is just that, hype. :)