Flysurfer Speed..awesome upwind

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tobes
tobes
NSW
1000 posts
NSW, 1000 posts
13 Apr 2007 11:53pm
News for you sambo, they are made in china. Just like pretty much everything else it would seem. Secondhand is the way to get cheaper flysurfers, but you've got to keep your eyes peeled, they're not very common over here. No need to be daunted by a flysurfer, just like your waterfoil you have to pack up with a bit of care. Launching, you pretty much just unroll the kite, sand it, unwind and take off.
crash
crash
WA
22 posts
WA, 22 posts
13 Apr 2007 10:59pm
The first thing I noticed about these things when I saw it close up was that this thing just makes sense. The complexity of them is a little daunting, but it's one that leans towards beauty as you understand it. I've been flying the 10m Speed2 for the last month and I'd have to say there are some very distinct advantages.

Relaunching these things isn't just easy, it's a plain no brainer and what's more it's easier on your own. My other kite is an Airush Flow SLE (can't fault this one either) which is probably one of the easiest LEI's around to fly and relaunch, and the Speed2 is much easier (and it self launches in practically no wind). There is one exception, which I haven't figured out yet, and may have more to do with the Speed2's high aspect ratio and that is if you get it in a bowtie, I haven't been able to unknot it while on the water. More experienced users may have the method on this one? Also it's nice being able to water start while you're bringing the kite back off the water after dropping it. Nose down crashes are no problem either - it flies backwards too.

Tangles can be worse. So far I've found this happens when the kite turns itself inside out while it has been fluffing around on the beach. I've recently found some methods to alleviate this. There's no doubt that the rather complex bridle does lend itself to being confusing to a new rider, but after doing my own line adjustments, I've gained the needed familiarity with it.

The really outstanding feature is the way it flies. It seems to iron out the bumps in the wind, but not in a spongy way as described by the PL's, but more like a shock absorber. Also, when you position the kite it tends to want to stay there. Forgetting about the tension on the kite, it will have a tendency to go towards the zenith. I'd say the way it feels to you on the bar is what will grab you if you try one.

And like many others have said, it's doesn't just go upwind, it's become a case of how to get back downwind! A few floaty jumps seems to be a good way.

I suspect it's called a "speed" for some reason too. I've recently got a gps to confirm if this is actual or perceived. fver's comment about how the speed seems to increase with speed is another point that is more noticeable on this kite (even down to 13knots - similar board and weight to jeremy, 144 TT and 82kg). Apparent wind is one thing, but sheeting in is like kicking down a gear.
Gorgo
Gorgo
VIC
5127 posts
VIC, 5127 posts
14 Apr 2007 9:09am
Flysurfers are particularly prone to bridle tangles because they use unsheathed spectra for the upper bridle lines. The line is soft and bendy and knots very easily. This really only applies to packing and unpacking the kites and gunk from the beach getting stuck in the soft lines. In use and under tension bridles never tangle.

There are new unsheathed lines available that are heat stretched and embedded with silicone. The line is stronger and stiffer so less inclined to knot or to pick up stuff off the beach. Hopefully Flysurfer will move to the newer bridle line in the future.
Samb0
Samb0
270 posts
270 posts
14 Apr 2007 7:32am
Interesting info guys. Makes me keener to get a fly of one.
joespencer
joespencer
QLD
167 posts
QLD, 167 posts
14 Apr 2007 11:28am
I like the sound of this thread- I didn't know anything about foils. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like the flysurfer will beat LEI's in
1. going upwind
2. apparent wind, and subsequent speed of kite
3. ease of setup, packing, transport- unless bridles get tangled
4. self launch and land
5. relaunch from the water if the flysurfer "pulse"- not sure if this is right
6. safer to be 500 metres off shore under - not sure about this one either.
Samb0
Samb0
270 posts
270 posts
14 Apr 2007 3:16pm
What are the standard line lengths for the Flysurfers? Will they respond ok to different line lengths? I have sucessfully flown my PL kites with 20M, 27M, 30M, and 32.5M lines. It has been so long since I have seen a FLysurfer I forget how they are set up. There is no fifth line on them is there?
tobes
tobes
NSW
1000 posts
NSW, 1000 posts
14 Apr 2007 6:32pm
Flysurfers flying lines are awesome. They are in 3 sections, 12m, 6m and 3m. Gives you a huge range of line lengths to play with up to a total of 21m + the bridle = similar to an LEI length of 27m. The lines are the best quality I've seen, with spliced loops.

The newer kites come with a 5th line that is only for safety, FDS in Flysurferspeak. It is good for emergencies, but I prefer the simplicity of the older 4 line system.

The Speed2 has frontline safety as standard with an optional 5th. @crash, I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on the Speed2....why not do a gear review?

Re selfrescue, your LEI is not a floatation raft, you shouldn't really kite further offshore than you can swim without support.
I have dragged back to shore with a damaged or tangled Flysurfer a few times, they will usually fly, though perhaps not well.
Here's a video of a deepwater launch, a guy gets chucked out of a boat with his board, harness and a 7m Flysurfer Speed. Try doing that with a tube.
kiteforum.com/viewforum.php?f=200/component/option,com_videos/task,show/id,484/Itemid,30/

Had a pretty nice session today with my Speed's 10 and 17. A 13 would have been perfect.
fver
fver
WA
453 posts
WA, 453 posts
14 Apr 2007 6:39pm

quote:
Originally posted by fver


2. tremendous increase of power with speed... resulting in more speed... thus more power... thus more speed... and so on! Adrenaline rush garanteed!!!


Some food for thoughts based on my experience in going fast with a Speed...

The Ocean

I ride on the ocean. So riding fast is better on a not-too-bumpy ocean surface, or more commonly, heading roughly in the same direction than the swell (that generally means heading back to shore for Perth conditions). I reserve the other tack (riding against the swell) for jumping using the swell as take off ramps!

The Board

My experience suggests that the board is very important to enjoy the possibilities of a fast kite. I have an old Airush Switch Pro board 147 x 33 and a 2007 Nobile 666 132x44. I find the Airush board much better to go fast than the Nobile one (which is great for other purposes).

The 147x33 Airush board conveys the following advantages:
- long board: more stable at high speed, smoother ride by decreasing the effect of the small bumps on the ocean. The board also does not dive into the swell;
- relatively narrow board: minimise board surface area and thus allow to hold an edge under power and speed;
- round edges: this results in a board that is not too responsive, thus more forgiving at high speed;
- stiff board (no flex): the board does not loose speed by absorbing the energy of impacts against the water surface. The board bounces against the water and keeps its speed.

I think a shorter and wider board, such as the Nobile 132X44, is not ideal for speed because:
- definitely a slower board than a long narrow one;
- harder to keep the edge at high speed;
- more prone to dive into the swell;
- the board reacts at smaller bumps on the water surface.
(compared to the Airush Switch Pro board, the Nobile 666 is shorter, wider, more flex, sharp egdes and lighter)

The Wind

I like the 18-22 knots range to be able to put the kite very deep into the power zone. I am approx 80 kg.

Technic

Once planning, kite at 45degres above the horizon and 2 o'clock, the aim is to progressively bring the kite lower above the horizon (2 to 4 m above the water), and deeper into the power zone (1 o'clock). The transition should be progressive and takes approximately 100 m to 200 m of riding. The general idea of the manoevre is, that after 200m, the kite should be as close to 12o'clock as possible, as low above the horizon as possible, and as sheeted in as possible without backstalling. This relies on:
1- getting progressively some speed;
2- the speed creates more power to the kite;
3- the kite can be slightly more powered up without stalling and brought closer to the power zone;
4- bringing the kite closer to the power zone creates more power, consequently more speed;
5- back to 2;

Once the kite is deep into the power zone, working the kite in a tight sinuosidal motion will provide the extra apparent wind and give the extra power and speed that brings euphoria!!!!

The maximum power/speed is reached when:
- you are riding as fast as the kite (cannot bring extra power by riding faster); and
- the kite is deep into the power zone (cannot add power from suitable placement of the kite in the wind window); and
- you are working the kite in the power zone (cannot create extra apparent wind); and
- the kite is powered up close as close as possible from backstalling (cannot add power by sheeting in).

A long story...


Fred
Jeff R
Jeff R
QLD
75 posts
QLD, 75 posts
14 Apr 2007 9:38pm
P3/17 gainst the Speed 17
TJ and I had a run at Caloundra the other weekend to see the performance of the two kites . Even though Trevor is lighter than me and had a larger board the Speed 17 was amazing in upwind performance .( and yes Trevor won hands down )

These kites seem to just park them selves in the air and generate power . Hey Trevor we have the new "Spleene/ door board "now so I am keen for another run . This board is amazing .

Also for these guys with tangles in their bridle lines with Flysufer kites , I feel you must be untidy in packing them up after use . If you pack them up properly the chance of a tangle is nil. I simply put the bar out to the side / un-roll the kite and sand it down / Un-roll the bar and shake out the lines. Never has failed yet .
fver
fver
WA
453 posts
WA, 453 posts
14 Apr 2007 8:59pm
quote:
Originally posted by Overpowered

Interesting video do you have an uncut version?



Hi Overpowered,

Boat launching is a procedure for experienced kitesurfers and is explained in each flysurfer kite manual.

I did a 'boat launch', or I should say a 'jet ski launch' during my lessons with Ian Young many years ago. Ian helped me a lot to do it because I had no idea what I was doing at this stage!!!

For more details, see page 21 of the Speed 2 manual that you can download here
http://www.flysurfer.com/Content/321/?mnid=1278.

Cheers,

Fred

ianyoung
ianyoung
WA
649 posts
WA, 649 posts
14 Apr 2007 10:33pm
Overpowered, I have actually helped WAKSA with Darren Marshal run some free self rescue workshops - always easier to show people than describe, but it is also described in http://members.iinet.net.au/~ianyoung/FS_tips.html - happy to demonstrate any time - call 0414 716 812 or email [email protected]

I teach with FlySurfers almost every day we have >6=<20 knots - I rarely have any tangles in any lines and the few I have experienced are usually when someone else has packed up my kite(s) - see link above for simple pack-up technique to avoid tangles and setup <5mins EVERY time.

The Speed2 is a high aspect ratio, high performance kite - it is less stable than the Psycho3 and Pulse - you never get a free lunch as they say - even so the Speed2 is not beyond most competent kiters.

All FlySurfer kites are very easy to relaunch once you have learned the technique - all of a 5min of your time - see the link above for descriptions and/or videos at www.flysurfer.com/Gallery/v/videos/

Bring on the relaunch or upwind or lightwind or apparent wind speed (GPS speed: wind speed) challenge
puppetonastring
puppetonastring
WA
3619 posts
WA, 3619 posts
15 Apr 2007 12:17am
Here we go again !
The mis-info-mation about flysurfers continues to astound me & I suspect the same applies to anyone who has actually flown one.
Leaving the 'real' wind kiting conditions side of the argument (ie the 12 knots plus area of 'real' kiting conditions to others who care ) here is my opinion why Flysurfer makes the ONLY truly light wind option that works.

FACT : the 17M Speed will relaunch (even off the water) in 5kts.
If you want to chase light wind conditions you are going to get caught out below your workable limit more often than you would ever like to think possible. LEIs will not relaunch below their workable bottom end. Esp when you are talking the huge blimp-like varieties (above the 15M size levels). They will leave you swimming in towing a huge blimp behind you
FACT : the 17M Speed will have you up & planing at 7kts. Then it takes just a tad of virtual wind and you are cranking upwind.
IMO : the only problem with the 17M Speed as your light wind option is that virtual wind gets you overpowered way too quickly; way too often in ridiculously low winds. Its boost or bust way too often & the 17M Speed boosts so easily in sub 10kts its just plain scary -till you get used to it
As for the complicated bridle argument (WTF) - forget it. If its an issue at all its a newby issue. I spend a whole lot more of my time at the beach helping newbys sort out tangles with their LEI 4 or 5 lines than anyone could ever have with Flysurfer lines & bridles.
They may look scary but reality is they just dont tangle (hardly ever ).
FACT : If you are chasing sub 12 (or even more radical sub 10 kts) then you are gonna be on your own a lot of the time - Flysurfers are the kickarse option - for safe & 'it works' launching & landing without assistance - anytime anywhere - Flysurfers are just too easy.
I havent been around much lately but thats about to change.
If you want to try a 17m Speed in low wind anytime over winter (the light wind morning easterlies & nth/easterlies work real well at Coogee main beach) just send me a PM. to tee up some lightwind kiting action now that the seabreeze has gone an left us

nb - no commercial interest here - just a pure love of kiting
crash
crash
WA
22 posts
WA, 22 posts
15 Apr 2007 2:40am
Tobes,

Gear review.. I thought that the post was heading that direction too!
I'd be happy to give the results of what I experience, I just didn't think I'd flown enough kites to give a fair assessment.

Self rescue.. I have to admit I haven't checked out the official method, but I have had to swim in twice now from quite far out. The first was a bow tie, which I didn't see coming, and I actually found the kite would still fly, but was getting to close to rocks so I aborted and swam in with it (upwind performance wasn't looking convincing ). Today I was out and the wind dropped out while it was already very marginal and again found myself moving downwind too close to boats (with masts - I hate these things), so I decided to swim in. On both occasions I rolled up the lines til close to the bridle, half hitched it and stuck the bridle/lines into the footstrap of the board and towed both back in. On the first occasion I initially held some tension on one set of the lines of the kite and let it pull in a slightly crosswind back to the beach. Today downwind was away from land and had to swim mostly into the wind. The kite sat on top of the water with no real drag. When I got back to the shallows, it did have maybe 10-20L in it, but the kite was mostly on top of the water (inflated). Dragging through the water seems to fill up the trailing edges (through the seams?). I think the offical comment should probably come from Ian though. Note that in both these cases the kite was launchable, it just wasn't the preferred option considering the obstacles.

I like fver's comments.. I've been looking into other boards. Today I took out the Converse directional for demo, but more on that later.

I find this too... just moving it ever so slightly.
quote:
Once the kite is deep into the power zone, working the kite in a tight sinuosidal motion will provide the extra apparent wind and give the extra power and speed that brings euphoria!!!!

Ian, I took the GPS out in the 9-11knots (max reading by anemometer) and recorded 16knot max speed, but it died shortly after. I'm sure Steve told me it was waterproof... doh! (actually manual says it's waterproof to 1m)

Puppetonastring.. I agree tangles happen on all kites, the only thing I'm trying to illustrate is that you do have to show considerably more care to make sure you don't. Today I was out where dead dry bits of seaweed were everywhere on the beach, and these were frequently getting caught in the little connector bridle lines. I knew this before going there and so wasn't surprised. My first launch was up in a few minutes of arriving at the beach, but during pack up, I spend some time removing the dried seaweed from the bridle.

Baz
Baz
NSW
205 posts
Baz Baz
NSW, 205 posts
15 Apr 2007 8:56am
I have the feeling Flysurfer could do with increased exposure. Maybe a national tour with demo's. Also Australian magazine exposure is basically zero, more exposure = more sales = cheaper price!
Constant winds,
Baz.
Gorgo
Gorgo
VIC
5127 posts
VIC, 5127 posts
15 Apr 2007 9:17am
Foils have to go way further than other brands in marketing because there is a fundamental fear and misunderstanding of foils.

In 5 years of riding not one of my kite mates ever took my foils out for a spin. They were afraid of them not relaunching or doing something horrible, even though they saw me every day riding and relaunching and doing everything they do.
Rovert
Rovert
QLD
68 posts
QLD, 68 posts
15 Apr 2007 1:43pm
Ref Puppet's offer for a light wind ride on a 17m Speed, I'll make the same offer for anyone interested around Brisbane - though bear in mind that a degree of competence is necessary for this kite..so no newbs. PM me. I may go for a cruise at Wello, almost certainly with no one else (because of lack of wind), this afternooon. As with Puppet, I have no commercial interest - I just think it's a pity so few kiters get to enjoy the pleasure of light wind kiting. Yes it's very different from 20knots ...but it's also very good.
jeremy
jeremy
WA
202 posts
WA, 202 posts
15 Apr 2007 2:48pm
Went down to Swanbourne this am before the front arrived. Breeze was 9-16knts mainly 10-13knts. My mate Chris came down with me with his GK Sonic. We both went out. I stayed upwind no problem. Chris was unable tooand had to walk back up the beach 300m. He then went out on my Speed. He went UPWIND. Ie Controlled trial ..Speed wins.

An official contest with a prize...top riders Ian Young on a foil of his choice vs Top LEI rider. Each carry a GPS. Contest in a variety of different conditions.

Any support for the concept. Any one suggest possible sponsers?
puppetonastring
puppetonastring
WA
3619 posts
WA, 3619 posts
15 Apr 2007 4:19pm
quote:
Originally posted by jeremy
Any one suggest possible sponsers?


Flysurfer Kites may be interested
Doubt any one else would be
puppetonastring
puppetonastring
WA
3619 posts
WA, 3619 posts
15 Apr 2007 7:31pm
quote:
Originally posted by Overpowered

Perhaps an annual upwind race? With prizes?


Just the sort of thing WAKSA is full-on encouraging & supporting.
Those who are interested get together; thrash out the wheres & whatfors & whens and have the whole thing fully backed by all of WAKSA's official status, facilities & connections.
Come along to the AGM & register your special interest event/s. WAKSA can even help you recruit the people-power you need to make it happen.
There have been a lot of ideas filtering thru this year. Just need some commitment to make season 07/08 the biggest ever.
The AGM is this Wednesday night - April 18th at the OBH Cottesloe.
Discuss your ideas over a few free ales - yum
jeremy
jeremy
WA
202 posts
WA, 202 posts
15 Apr 2007 7:53pm
I think it is worthy of a new topic post.

Ill post to see if there is much interest.

Jeremy
FlyingWhiteBoy
FlyingWhiteBoy
WA
111 posts
WA, 111 posts
16 Apr 2007 2:51pm
I've flown flysurfer kites for about 4 years now maybe more. Infact my 7m Warrior has lasted me the whole time. So keep in mind I am flying technology over 5 years old.

The bridling never tangles if you pack it up properly, infact I have been meaning to speak to Ian about a modification to the bag that would permanently solve this problem.

I have never seen the bridling get tangled during flight. NEVER

I have never seen any other non-flysurfer water relaunch better than my warrior

I have never had to swim back to shore using this kite in over 4 years!!!

When the wind drops off and everyone's larger inflatables have completely dropped out of the air, I will always still be able to keep on kiting to get back to shore or often even take a couple more runs without losing much ground

Dont be afraid of buying second hand flysurfers as they are a very robust kite and you can occasionally pick up great deals on them!

Last year I purchased a 16m warrior for $150!!!!!!!! perfect condition!! Gonna fly it on snow fields one day

My one complaint is that the warrior is hard to land by yourself in very high winds although this issue has been totally sorted with the newer kites now.

After doing a bugger load of paragliding recently I am much happier being under a flysurfer while doing big jumps compared to the inflatables!! If you get the chance do the course offered in WA done by Jiri, paragliding kicks arse!

Note to Ian and other flysurfer users: To ensure you never get a bridle during packing, do what paraglider pilots do and tie the loop in the bar to edge of the bag before stuffing the gear in. This way your bar will never be passed through your lines and thus you will never get a bridle tangle
FlyingWhiteBoy
FlyingWhiteBoy
WA
111 posts
WA, 111 posts
16 Apr 2007 2:54pm
Forgot to mention that the after sale service that Ian offers is second to none that I have experienced in the consumer world. Great businessman and great bloke.
meerkat
meerkat
WA
644 posts
WA, 644 posts
16 Apr 2007 2:57pm
sounds like the only thing that stays up wind better than a flyserver is a boat.

and you could probably buy one for the same price

thought there was more to kiting than staying upwind or did i miss something?
FlyingWhiteBoy
FlyingWhiteBoy
WA
111 posts
WA, 111 posts
16 Apr 2007 3:31pm
I heard it was whether you can do board grabs while not losing a baseball cap you are wearing sideways.
meerkat
meerkat
WA
644 posts
WA, 644 posts
16 Apr 2007 3:55pm
So if i land a unhooked backloop kiteloop to switch then its a failure cause i didn't stay upwind??

i'd gladly do downwinders all day if the gear i have is suited to my riding.

NOTE: i ain't saying the gear i have is better, just saying there is more to kiting than emulating a poley.
Bowski
Bowski
VIC
204 posts
VIC, 204 posts
16 Apr 2007 6:09pm
I think the point of better upwind ability is that you get to do more tricks per run, rather than doing a couple of big tricks then trying to get back upwind. I had a go on a foil last year at the cocos and liked it, I am keen to get one for next season if only someone demo'd them in Vic.

Bowski
LouD
LouD
WA
642 posts
WA, 642 posts
16 Apr 2007 10:34pm
A lot cheaper to buy an old 2 line wipi classic or free air and learning to edge!
Mr float
Mr float
NSW
3452 posts
NSW, 3452 posts
17 Apr 2007 9:10am
I am not sure about flysurfer but Peter Lynn kites demos can be arranged demoed via mick Sohn at Rye and Sandy Point 0425 733250
kitepower geelong 03 5229 5899
Kite Rebublic 0418 583233

quote:
Originally posted by Bowski

I think the point of better upwind ability is that you get to do more tricks per run, rather than doing a couple of big tricks then trying to get back upwind. I had a go on a foil last year at the cocos and liked it, I am keen to get one for next season if only someone demo'd them in Vic.

Bowski

mrbonk
mrbonk
NSW
483 posts
NSW, 483 posts
17 Apr 2007 9:26am
Upwind performance can be a big factor, depending on where you kite. For eg, where I am, the best wind direction is almost directly onshore. If you can't get upwind, you can't get off the bank
ianyoung
ianyoung
WA
649 posts
WA, 649 posts
17 Apr 2007 12:48pm
Kitepower Geelong is the best bet in VIC
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