How safe is too safe?

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Saffer
Saffer
VIC
4501 posts
VIC, 4501 posts
22 Oct 2006 12:37pm
Now thats a valid point I do agree with. Although flat kites are safer as far as I am concerned, it does give newbies confidence to go out in conditions they shouldn't.
silviu
silviu
VIC
663 posts
VIC, 663 posts
22 Oct 2006 5:15pm
quote:
Originally posted by stamp

quote:
Originally posted by silviu

How safe it is safe?
By the end of the day it is personal!




so stop preaching to everyone about it and let people make their own decisions



Did somone, excepting your mom, or your missus, make any decisions for you?

C'mon, Stamp, what's your problem? Is the truth hurting?
Why are you so frustrated?, Life is beautifull, summer is here, enjoy, stop being so grumpy.
stamp
stamp
QLD
2800 posts
QLD, 2800 posts
22 Oct 2006 7:58pm
silviu, what the f*** are you trying to say?
i'm not frustrated or grumpy mate, i just get sick of you being sergeant safety all the time. i think you need to let people make their own decisions; not everybody wants to be wrapped in cotton wool and paranoid all the time.
sleek1
sleek1
VIC
672 posts
VIC, 672 posts
22 Oct 2006 9:26pm
I always wear a condom kiting Melbourne. Is that safe or what?
stamp
stamp
QLD
2800 posts
QLD, 2800 posts
22 Oct 2006 9:29pm
its a bit late for you isnt it sleek? you cant catch it twice...
silviu
silviu
VIC
663 posts
VIC, 663 posts
22 Oct 2006 9:36pm
quote:
Originally posted by stamp

silviu, what the f*** are you trying to say?
i'm not frustrated or grumpy mate, i just get sick of you being sergeant safety all the time. i think you need to let people make their own decisions; not everybody wants to be wrapped in cotton wool and paranoid all the time.


So do not read my posts. And I am not your mate!
As I said before, it is a free forum. If you don't like it, leave it.
We want to progress the sport, not to get it banned everywhere.
And one way is to make it safer.
If you don't agree is your personal prblem. Like drink and drive, you know....
kiterdan
kiterdan
WA
680 posts
WA, 680 posts
22 Oct 2006 8:41pm
I think a possible reason behind the AGAINST posts could be that making it too safe takes away the 'extreme sport' stigma attached to the sport. Its like BMX with trainer wheels...
I don't think its necessarily a bad thing though because these safer kites have also opened up the possiblities of surfing with kites. But I do think that too safe means too many people! Too many people means congestion and not as much fun. Spread the anti-hype!

stamp
stamp
QLD
2800 posts
QLD, 2800 posts
22 Oct 2006 10:51pm
quote:
Originally posted by silviu

quote:
Originally posted by stamp

silviu, what the f*** are you trying to say?
i'm not frustrated or grumpy mate, i just get sick of you being sergeant safety all the time. i think you need to let people make their own decisions; not everybody wants to be wrapped in cotton wool and paranoid all the time.


So do not read my posts. And I am not your mate!
As I said before, it is a free forum. If you don't like it, leave it.
We want to progress the sport, not to get it banned everywhere.
And one way is to make it safer.
If you don't agree is your personal prblem. Like drink and drive, you know....


dont be like that maaaaaaaaaattttteeee.
i ride bows and reckon they are a lot safer than the C kites i learnt on, i just dont like the self-righteous, militant attitudes of some people
Spacemonkey!
Spacemonkey!
SA
2288 posts
SA, 2288 posts
22 Oct 2006 10:29pm
I too am sick of people preaching safety too rediculous levels. In my view there are 4 ways to get hurt kiteboarding.

1.) eaten by marine life (nothing you can do unless you want an electric cord zapping your ankles every 5 seconds).

2.) hurt trying tricks (you all know the consequences of tricks, don't do em if you dont want to get hurt)

3.) hurt by kooking up, learn to fly your kite and not do stupid ****. be able to control your kite without looking at it and without both hands on the bar.

4.) hurt by freak weather conditions (pretty much the same as marine life, its a roll of the dice sometimes. You could check the forecast for squall warnings to be extra safe)

C's are safe enough for me, epecially with 5th line. Bow's teach people bad habits such as poor edging, bad assesments of wind conditions (over confidence). A good kiter will be just as safe on a bow as on a C.
poor relative
poor relative
WA
9106 posts
WA, 9106 posts
22 Oct 2006 9:36pm
Generally a good guage is an independant.

Go and ask an insurance company if it will cost you more to insure yourself against injury cause you ride C's or less cause you ride bows.
echostorm
echostorm
QLD
1245 posts
QLD, 1245 posts
23 Oct 2006 8:00am
quote:
Originally posted by Spacemonkey!

I too am sick of people preaching safety too rediculous levels. In my view there are 4 ways to get hurt kiteboarding.

1.) eaten by marine life (nothing you can do unless you want an electric cord zapping your ankles every 5 seconds).

2.) hurt trying tricks (you all know the consequences of tricks, don't do em if you dont want to get hurt)

3.) hurt by kooking up, learn to fly your kite and not do stupid ****. be able to control your kite without looking at it and without both hands on the bar.

4.) hurt by freak weather conditions (pretty much the same as marine life, its a roll of the dice sometimes. You could check the forecast for squall warnings to be extra safe)

C's are safe enough for me, epecially with 5th line. Bow's teach people bad habits such as poor edging, bad assesments of wind conditions (over confidence). A good kiter will be just as safe on a bow as on a C.



5. What about surf riding in the surf? There are a lot of variables there. Freak wave/sandbank

IMHO to say there only 4 ways to get hurt is a little ignorant.
cwamit
cwamit
WA
1194 posts
WA, 1194 posts
23 Oct 2006 6:34am
quote:
Originally posted by Spacemonkey!

I too am sick of people preaching safety too rediculous levels. In my view there are 4 ways to get hurt kiteboarding.'



Sick hey? So what are your symptoms? What are the ridiculous safety levels others are preaching, out of interest otherwise it's a throw away line like saying your sick of it. I only ask because I would like to know the safety I should take on and the safety I should disregard as sickening preaching.
quote:


1.) eaten by marine life (nothing you can do unless you want an electric cord zapping your ankles every 5 seconds).

2.) hurt trying tricks (you all know the consequences of tricks, don't do em if you dont want to get hurt)

3.) hurt by kooking up, learn to fly your kite and not do stupid ****. be able to control your kite without looking at it and without both hands on the bar.

4.) hurt by freak weather conditions (pretty much the same as marine life, its a roll of the dice sometimes. You could check the forecast for squall warnings to be extra safe)

C's are safe enough for me, epecially with 5th line. Bow's teach people bad habits such as poor edging, bad assesments of wind conditions (over confidence). A good kiter will be just as safe on a bow as on a C.



What about people around your kite as well, don’t want to hurt them either though do we? And the line tangles in wave riding a nasty one too, but one individual person can’t be expected to know all the safety precautions hence it’s shared on forums and stuff I guess. I do agree though in principle that a good kiter should be as safe on a c as a bow because that what makes them um..ah...well.... good! Isnt that some kind of paradox?
kiterdan
kiterdan
WA
680 posts
WA, 680 posts
23 Oct 2006 9:34am
What monkey is saying is, a good kiter will be as safe on a C as a bow because they have acquired the necessary skills.
I would like to see a good kiter who started out on a bow! A couple of years away yet but it'll be interesting to see
Spacemonkey!
Spacemonkey!
SA
2288 posts
SA, 2288 posts
23 Oct 2006 11:12am
I meant 4 main ways to get hurt. Obviously there is plenty more. I would add the surf one to my list, I neglected it because I mainly ride flat water my bad. Still the point remains, Most injuries are either due to poor skill, freak events or bad landings. If your good at flying C's you can fly them just as safely as any bow.
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
23 Oct 2006 10:07am
Bows weren't invented to make kitesurfing safe.
That's because kitesurfing will never be safe.
Just like driving a car will never be safe.

Bows were developed to get more people kitesurfing on our public beaches...
To sell more kites...
To SUPER-SIZE the sport.

Some of the crew who can now kite on bows had very little chance before of ever succeeding on C-kites.
C-kites were too hard for them.
They couldn't deal with the power.
They threw-in the beach towel out of frustration.
The C-kite was a deal-breaker.

But now that the skill level required has been dumbed-down,
the sport has become more accessible to the average punter.
There is no longer Me in extreme.
It's now made for the masses.

That's real good for the shopkeepers, gurus and unco newbie zoos.
Spread the anti-hype.
doppelganger
doppelganger
VIC
337 posts
VIC, 337 posts
23 Oct 2006 12:16pm
Waveboy, I heard you were injured, Hope you recover "REALLY QUICK", so you can get back on the water and we wont have to read the dribble.
NorthSide
NorthSide
WA
238 posts
WA, 238 posts
23 Oct 2006 2:41pm
Got to agree with you on that Waveslave...
Oakie
Oakie
WA
268 posts
WA, 268 posts
23 Oct 2006 3:28pm
quote:
Originally posted by waveslave

Bows weren't invented to make kitesurfing safe...

Bows were developed to get more people kitesurfing on our public beaches...


Not entirely true. Im going to throw a curve ball in here... Bow kites were invented because the French government were going to ban kiting on the basis of several accidents and did not find the 5th line sstfifies their safety concerns. The patent holder for the Inflatable kite (you know the guy..) who, coincidentally is also french generated a new patent to satisfy saftey concerns (and being very cinical, also his patent rights). Thats not a bad thing, but bow wern't spefically created to get more people into the sport.

Im off to woodies, see ya!!
user
user
WA
1140 posts
WA, 1140 posts
23 Oct 2006 4:04pm
Man,I cant get over the anti Bow crew!

Very unhappy lot. You must be really panicking about the growth of Bows !

As if I care !

It makes me feel good to know that when I am out rippin' it up on my Bowslehybridflat,that you guys are getting really pissed off!

You will eventually get so depressed,you will not come to the beach and I will have much more space to tear around with my Bow Buddies !
echostorm
echostorm
QLD
1245 posts
QLD, 1245 posts
23 Oct 2006 6:44pm
quote:
Originally posted by user

Man,I cant get over the anti Bow crew!

Very unhappy lot. You must be really panicking about the growth of Bows !

As if I care !

It makes me feel good to know that when I am out rippin' it up on my Bowslehybridflat,that you guys are getting really pissed off!

You will eventually get so depressed,you will not come to the beach and I will have much more space to tear around with my Bow Buddies !




HAHAHAHA, well said user...

Another point that should be raised here is helmets, who wheres them, are they too safe??? I guess by a lot of the comments I am reading people hate them... well twice in three weeks my helmet has saved my ass... well head. Once I got wiped out by a wave, and my over weighted surfboard (3 layers of glass on each side) hit me in the head hard, the other was just yesterday when I boosted only to land on a pole rider who made an unsuspecting tack towards me. I landed hitting my head on his board, a windsurfer making a turn towards you when your in the air is again a freak accident but it happens, and if I wasnt wearing my helmet his board would be wearing my brains. Stop bagging safety and promote it, that way more people are safe, less accidents occur, and kiting doesnt get banned. I know it is a catch 22 for all the beginners getting into the sport, but C's or Bows, safety or no safety its ineveidable that if someone wants to start a sport theyre gunna do it regardless of the types of kites on the market, and if those kites are safe at least they are not mowing down innocent beach goers.
RAL INN
RAL INN
SA
2898 posts
SA, 2898 posts
23 Oct 2006 6:16pm
of all the incidents I have witnessed, the primary common denominator is that the kiter in question, having lost control for what ever reason. Then does not let go or go for the safety, but goes into " don't crash the kite" mode.

When they fail we see the results. the rag doll attached to the kite heading to oblivion.

Students no matter how many times they are told to let go, pull this push that, don't. I teach with a 2line kite which all it needs is Let go the bar with both hands. Even under controlled conditions and just demonstrating the ditching technique, students need to be told about 3 times "let go the bar" before they actually do.

Kiters that have gained some skill and confidence in their ability are even worse.

Sometimes I think the best safety system would be the kite 5th line attached to the board. Lose the board it pulls the 5th kite stops.

but thats BS. why not just accept that we are out there to have fun, and that we accept that there is risk associated with that fun.

that kites are like Guns. Only as safe as the idiot in control.
dan OK?
dan OK?
VIC
253 posts
VIC, 253 posts
23 Oct 2006 7:02pm
Originally posted by echostorm

Originally posted by user

Man,I cant get over the anti Bow crew!

Very unhappy lot. You must be really panicking about the growth of Bows !

As if I care !




HAHAHAHA, well said user...

Another point that should be raised here is helmets, who wheres them, are they too safe??? I guess by a lot of the comments I am reading people hate them... well twice in three weeks my helmet has saved my ass... well head. Once I got wiped out by a wave, and my over weighted surfboard (3 layers of glass on each side) hit me in the head hard, the other was just yesterday when I boosted only to land on a pole rider who made an unsuspecting tack towards me. I landed hitting my head on his board, a windsurfer making a turn towards you when your in the air is again a freak accident but it happens, and if I wasnt wearing my helmet his board would be wearing my brains. Stop bagging safety and promote it, that way more people are safe, less accidents occur, and kiting doesnt get banned. I know it is a catch 22 for all the beginners getting into the sport, but C's or Bows, safety or no safety its ineveidable that if someone wants to start a sport theyre gunna do it regardless of the types of kites on the market, and if those kites are safe at least they are not mowing down innocent beach goers.



I was jumping quite happily when a nasty windsurfer appeared beneath me.

kite is not mowing down innocent beach users


Where are you guys kiting where you land on people,Get blown into airports,blown up sand dunes wipe out kiddies?
The planet is two thirds water, find a big chunk of it and huck yourself till your broken.
I relinquish my crown.

Ive worn a helmet since Laurie came unstuck at Gnotuk
silviu
silviu
VIC
663 posts
VIC, 663 posts
23 Oct 2006 7:48pm
quote:
Originally posted by doppelganger

Waveboy, I heard you were injured, Hope you recover "REALLY QUICK", so you can get back on the water and we wont have to read the dribble.



Wow. that's nasty! But unfortunatelly so right!!!
silviu
silviu
VIC
663 posts
VIC, 663 posts
23 Oct 2006 7:53pm
quote:
Originally posted by dan OK?

Ive worn a helmet since Laurie came unstuck at Gnotuk



So unfortunate that Laurie has to go trough all this, to rise the safety concerns!
This is why I will continuu to be the safety champion, enven if some will be not so happy and will say that I am preaching.
At least I am preaching what I am practising!
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
23 Oct 2006 9:00pm
quote:
Originally posted by kiterdan
Too many people means congestion and not as much fun. Spread the anti-hype!



Kiterdan and NorthSide are two dudes who know the scene.
Cheers.
The rest are in denial or clueless.
The shopkeepers and the gurus are cooking their goose.
Turn the heat up, it'll cook faster.
lol

"WAKSA's primary objective is to maintain access to our public beaches and promote safety".
That quote is straight off the WAKSA website.
It's a mission statement from WAKSA.
It could be a mantra for waveslave.

For WAKSA to maintain access and uphold safety standards on our public beaches,
the growth of kitesurfing will need to be sustainable.
Thirty 30 metre bandsaws cutting sick among the beach-goers isn't the way to achieve the mission.
Mission Impossible.

Kite zoos on public beaches will culminate in kite bans across-the-board.
No pun intended.
This is no laughing matter.
hahaha
Overhype-ing and overtraining is cooking the goose.
Spread the anti-hype.
doppelganger
doppelganger
VIC
337 posts
VIC, 337 posts
24 Oct 2006 12:28am
I'm only new to kiting and looking at this thread and others it would appear that there is a difference from State to State in regards to the public, council, newbie and crowding problems. I'm from Vic (Melb), and a lot of the issues I read on the forum are not so prevalent here as in other States. Maybe I'm wrong and need to get out more, I don’t mind driving distances to chase the wind and quite like the big blue, swell, waves as much as flat water.
Anyhow, my point is: I find this difference in States makes for interesting debating on certain subject's, ie. this one. N.S.W seems to be at the top of the tree for problems, followed by W.A.

If the above thought process is correct, I can see where some of you guy's are coming from, If I'm incorrect, some you guy's in W.A have got some real:” Macho" and "chip on the shoulder" issues to deal with. I've never been to any kite sites in W.A and that's the way it comes across, if I'm seeing the same thing you guys are seeing in w.A.
RAL INN
RAL INN
SA
2898 posts
SA, 2898 posts
24 Oct 2006 6:53am
[quote the other was just yesterday when I boosted only to land on a pole rider who made an unsuspecting tack towards me. I landed hitting my head on his board, a windsurfer making a turn towards you when your in the air is again a freak accident but it happens, and if I wasnt wearing my helmet his board would be wearing my brains. Stop bagging safety and promote it,

So let me get this straight, a windsurfer tacks into wind, you jump and travell downwind to colide with him.
To me that equals you jumping upwind of another water user.
So how quick do you want this sport banned?
echostorm
echostorm
QLD
1245 posts
QLD, 1245 posts
24 Oct 2006 10:19am
quote:
Originally posted by RAL INN

[quote the other was just yesterday when I boosted only to land on a pole rider who made an unsuspecting tack towards me. I landed hitting my head on his board, a windsurfer making a turn towards you when your in the air is again a freak accident but it happens, and if I wasnt wearing my helmet his board would be wearing my brains. Stop bagging safety and promote it,

So let me get this straight, a windsurfer tacks into wind, you jump and travell downwind to colide with him.
To me that equals you jumping upwind of another water user.
So how quick do you want this sport banned?



I was travelling behind him on the same line, I jumped expecting him to keep going as he had another 100m of water before he was due to make his turn, he did an early downwind tack towards me while I was still in the air. Like I said, an unlucky situation with high wind.
andrewm
andrewm
WA
243 posts
WA, 243 posts
24 Oct 2006 9:06am
quote:
Originally posted by waveslave

Some of the crew who can now kite on bows had very little chance before of ever succeeding on C-kites.
C-kites were too hard for them.
They couldn't deal with the power.
They threw-in the beach towel out of frustration.
The C-kite was a deal-breaker.

But now that the skill level required has been dumbed-down,
the sport has become more accessible to the average punter.
There is no longer Me in extreme.
It's now made for the masses.

That's real good for the shopkeepers, gurus and unco newbie zoos.
Spread the anti-hype.



so your upset kiteboarding isnt as 'elite' as it once was? or is it because you had to learn the hard way on C kite everyone else should? is it unfair guys learning on bows are progressing twice as fast?

I would have happily learnt on C kites if I lived somewhere with nice steady winds. reality is if I stuck with my 10m C kite that I brought last december I wouldnt be nearly at the level I am now. which isnt great but I have fun. learning in 10-30kt gusty winter winds is not fun.

sunseeker
sunseeker
QLD
1203 posts
QLD, 1203 posts
24 Oct 2006 9:19pm
quote:
Originally posted by andrewm

quote:
Originally posted by waveslave

Some of the crew who can now kite on bows had very little chance before of ever succeeding on C-kites.
C-kites were too hard for them.
They couldn't deal with the power.
They threw-in the beach towel out of frustration.
The C-kite was a deal-breaker.

But now that the skill level required has been dumbed-down,
the sport has become more accessible to the average punter.
There is no longer Me in extreme.
It's now made for the masses.

That's real good for the shopkeepers, gurus and unco newbie zoos.
Spread the anti-hype.



so your upset kiteboarding isnt as 'elite' as it once was? or is it because you had to learn the hard way on C kite everyone else should? is it unfair guys learning on bows are progressing twice as fast?

I would have happily learnt on C kites if I lived somewhere with nice steady winds. reality is if I stuck with my 10m C kite that I brought last december I wouldnt be nearly at the level I am now. which isnt great but I have fun. learning in 10-30kt gusty winter winds is not fun.





I learned on a C-kite - a 12m cabriha nitro which is pretty high aspect. I had a great time then I realised that the wind range wasn't that great so I bought a 16m C-kite to handle the lower wind days. Then I bought a turbo diesel. I do all my kiting in the surf. Eventually I was only using the turbo-diesel so I got rid of both C kites. I can't say that I would have learned much quicker on the bow kite - I can still do extreme stuff - you still get the only used twice bow kites for sale - I really don't think that on a steady day of wind with the right C kite that it's that hard to learn anyway - bow kites just have a bigger range because of the de-power. On a steady day, a C-kite you still have the trim strap to give de-power.

The one thing that I can say for a C-kite is that I did learn how to edge out a gust properly. On my turbo diesel now I set the stopper ball which gaives the same setup as a c kite anyway.

oh dear...i'm rambling
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