IKO course anytime soon? anyone know?

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JOYRIDER

705 posts

JOYRIDER

705 posts

30 Oct 2007 10:18pm

want to do my kiteboarding instructors.
anyone know where or who to contact?
ill be in QLD but any state will do.

cheers
[email protected]

youngbull

QLD

826 posts

youngbull

QLD, 826 posts

30 Oct 2007 11:33pm

Why..

Just teach what you know already know

IKO is like Q-Ride for bikes... a total load of B/S.... [}:)][}:)][}:)]

The same people are going to say the same thing (you can do it with me, Oh and we have some spare spots still available at our special discounted price)....rrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I am not trying to take the micky out of you.

Call the kite shops ( yellow pages ) cause they will reply to this message anyway.

And get a 1 on 1 feel for the instructor. eg...attitude/communication/skill level.

At the end of the day it's a piece of paper, sorry JOYRIDER I know this sounds mean but just trying to steer you in pos direction with this.....

mrbonk

NSW

483 posts

mrbonk

NSW, 483 posts

31 Oct 2007 1:15am

youngbull said...

Why..

Just teach what you know already know

IKO is like Q-Ride for bikes... a total load of B/S.... [}:)][}:)][}:)]

That's like saying you're qualified to teach English because you speak it (or think you can). *That's* a total load of B/S. Just because you kitesurf does *not* mean you have any idea of how to successfully/safely impart that knowledge to someone else.

Kitehard

2782 posts

Kitehard

WA, 2782 posts

30 Oct 2007 11:29pm

OK Youngbull,

I'll bite. You are totally right! You can teach on any beach, without a piece of worthless paper and without spending heaps of money on useless stuff like insurance and quality teaching equipment like Headzone radio Helmets and proper school type kites and yes, you will be able to get people up on a board. And yes you can teach without a rescue boat and without life jackets and without valid council and waterways permits and without those Bullsh1t IKO kiteboarder cards. But ...............

If you have an accident and the student sues you, which is highly likely if they are so banged up they can't work and can't pay the rent, and have huge ambulance and hospital bills and have no private health insurance, and have a wife about to have their first kid, and have no savings to speak of. Even your best friend will sue you to the hilt if their lively hood is threatened and they are going to be put out on the street and have no money for food. I am speaking of an actual incident I was asked to investigate on behalf of an insurance company, and yes it happened here in Australia.

I have been asked to render professional opinion with two court cases involving major insurance claims in Australia now and I can tell you, they don't like to lose money.

By not having an internationally or even nationally recognised accreditation of teaching, you cannot get insurance, if you have no insurance, you have no council or waterways permits, which means you are teaching illegally in a public place and can show no duty of care, no professional attitude, and are working recklessly endangering the lives of unsuspecting punters. I'm sure this kind of instructor doesn't say, "Hey I have no qualifications, or insurance and am not legally allowed to teach here" to their clients, "but hey step right up and give me your money, what could possibly go wrong?".

So anyways, once you have lost your house, car, savings and every personal item of any value, you will probably be sent to gaol for quite some time and get to spend time in a cell with a 300lb fat guy with homosexual tendancies that thinks your cute. And it will all be worth it to earn the couple of thousand bucks over sunmmer that you blew on a new board of a sh1t load of beer.

Your obviously educated opinion stems from having first hand experience of actually doing an IKO course right? so that you can actually give a personal first hand opinion of the value of the course...... Right?? Or have you failed an Instructor training course before and are still feeling a little bitter?

No need to answer cause I'm really not bothered either way. To quote the Hoods, "If ignorance is bliss, then you're a happy muther f#cker".

Have a great day and good winds,

Kitehard

2782 posts

Kitehard

WA, 2782 posts

30 Oct 2007 11:42pm

Sorry Joyrider, I forgot to mention. All courses worldwide can be found on the IKO website training calendar

~~http://www.ikointl.com/training_calendar.php?menu_id=3~~

Good luck with it, I'm sure you'll get value from an ITC course. A few other blokes from down your way just completed the course and gained their qualifications.

Good winds,

waveslave

4263 posts

waveslave

WA, 4263 posts

30 Oct 2007 11:45pm

That's a big Ad.
Nice.

youngbull

QLD

826 posts

youngbull

QLD, 826 posts

31 Oct 2007 2:28am

Thanks for your reply Kitehard. Yes you have made a very valid point and i can say you are correct in 70% of what you are saying.

No i have never failed an IKO course/lesson/money spending exercise to get a piece of paper to say i am insured/able to teach, and not be to concerned about being sued ( I would like to add you can get personal insurance to cover this w/out the qualification's)..

PLEASE TO ALL WHO ARE READING THIS IT IS IN NO WAY A DIG ON ANY SHOP OR BUSINESS THAT PROMOTES IKO TRAINING. THIS IS SOLY A TOPIC THAT IS UNTOUCHED BUY MANY IN A GREAT FORUM LIKE THIS, PEOPLE SHOULD BE MADE AWARE OF PATH THEY CAN TAKE IN KITTING WHETHER IT BE FOR THE BETTER OR WORSE..

It frustrates me to see shops and people wanting to make a few extra bucks, offering training to this level in such a poor/disregarding manner to the kite boarding community.

Yes a training method to teach people..... heck yea

Doing it the wrong way which several people have been IKO instructors and still passed a failing student.... heck no...

My words are that of many who just want to see the sport made available for many now and in the future.....

Oh and JOYRIDER I hope that the inputs of this forum show the diversity in opinions for your answer.

As you can see my first reply was answered, Just as predicted.

Nuttzzzz

92 posts

Nuttzzzz

SA, 92 posts

31 Oct 2007 4:20am

I did my IKO traning with Darren a few years ago. I was a very basic kiteboarder back then and I worked hard to pass my weeks worth of training. It was pretty rigorous, I learnt Sh1t loads and I have to say I was indoctrinated into a philosophy of safety and duty of care which is part of the course. I now own my own very successful kiteboarding school and to date haven't come close to a major accident during teaching.

I'm affiliated with IKO and am insured with them to the tune of 12Mill Euro which equates to nearly 19 Mill in AUD and my premium was, from memory around AUD$300

It was my personal choice to get qualified. I stumbled on Darren as an examiner and I hope he made some $$ from teaching me because A: He earned it and B: it's been money well spent.

Youngbull, I'm not sure how you make your money but somewhere along the line someone's profiting. This is called CAPITALISM. You and I live in this world. The trick is to make it work for you. IKO set a standard for instructors. Someone teaches them and profits from their time doing this. I like this.

Joyrider . . . I employ a young local guy here in Adelaide. He has his IKO Cert. He's recently sat his L2 Instructors rating which makes him all the more employable. He's a great guy but I wouldn't have contemplated employing him without his primary IKO Cert. Go do it mate. You'll learn lots and have a ticket to work worldwide. I don't know why anyone would dis it??

On another topic . . . . . Don't understand some of the guys who have time under their belt totally hammering newbies?? What the!!

Create a gr8 day . . . . G

Bigwavedave

QLD

2057 posts

Bigwavedave

QLD, 2057 posts

31 Oct 2007 9:25am

Here's news for you Youngbull.

You cannot get public liability insurance to cover you to teach kitesurfing from any broker in Australia without satisfying the following criteria:

Industry acknowledged training and qualification (IKO is only one)
Local Council Permitted Business Licence. (name differs from council to council)
Other relevant (waterways, marine parks, boating and fisheries, dept of transport) permits.
Safety rescue vessel, safety plan etc

If you operate without insurance and have an accident you are placing everything you own at risk. If you don't own anything then they will chase your student and the local council for damages.

The IKO is currently the only way to achieve industry training for instructors. Until something better comes along- support it.

Our sport is growing and is no longer invisible enough for "under the radar" instructors to operate.

SurfConnect

QLD

1674 posts

SurfConnect

QLD, 1674 posts

31 Oct 2007 11:52am

Support Kitehard's reply 110% and only last weekend I witnessed some guy who is not a qualified instructor teaching a dad with a 6 or 7 year child tagged to him while he was learning getting on the board. I was pointed out by one of my instructors who was also teaching at the same time that the kid was at various moments right downwind of his dad, in his immediate 'killzone' area. Fortunately nothing happened but if the child was taken out, the fatality could have been dramatic.

Most people do not realize the seriousness and the extremely high risk involved in the sport, especially when someone is learning. Just because you are a competent kiter, it does not mean you have the ability, skills or knowledge to teach someone else. More importantly, are you aware and taken into consideration all the basics and safety aspects if anything should go wrong? Murphy’s Law states if anything could go wrong, it probably will. It is an adage many have seen it proven. Don’t regret it. You are not only risking your own life, your entire future, everything you own, or what you may spend much of your life re-paying back, but that of others too – what if because of your irresponsible teaching, caused permanent injury or death, how do you justify yourself to them, their family, and that to your own family, your parents, your wife, your kids? Is it really worth it?

If you are interested in sharing your knowledge and skills to others, go about it the right way. Get trained up properly and be qualified. IKO has a very well structured training system in place and Darren (the only Examiner we have in Australia) does a fantastic job ensuring each instructor he passes has the competency as required. I have yet to come across anyone else in the kiting industry who has the skills and ability to do a better job than him.

youngbull

QLD

826 posts

youngbull

QLD, 826 posts

1 Nov 2007 1:11am

It's nice to have a debate with the positive's and the negative's and no-one going overboard.

If only other topics to this approach

the skipper

QLD

90 posts

the skipper

QLD, 90 posts

1 Nov 2007 1:29am

Bigwavedave said...

You cannot get public liability insurance to cover you to teach kitesurfing from any broker in Australia without satisfying the following criteria:

Boy oh boy you guys make big claims. Do any of you kite teachers know how to negotiate with australian insurance brokers? Or take the easy option and insure with an overseas organisation that takes your dollars!

safe insurance hmmm, can you speak french in court in aruba?

lots of retailers in oz have oz insurance and don't use scare tactics.

Kitehard

2782 posts

Kitehard

WA, 2782 posts

1 Nov 2007 2:34am

Hey Skipper,

there are only one or two Insurance underwriters who will touch kiteboarding instruction in Oz, I know because I did the legwork after our council wouldn't accept IKO PL insurance for schools because they wouldn't allow them to be named as an interested party on the policy, and this is one of the worlds big insurers, Zurich.

You can approach as many brokers as you like, but they all go to the one or two underwriters and we don't have the numbers to bargain hard. If you can even get insurance in Oz for teaching kiteboarding, you're doing well.

Some councils accept IKO insurance, lucky them because it is cheaper than what I pay.

If you know of any cheap brokers that CAN get PL for teaching kiting, let me know.

Good winds,

kusu

QLD

485 posts

kusu

QLD, 485 posts

1 Nov 2007 9:41am

I know this has come up before here and on other forums. But I have some genuine questions - prefer these to be answered by Darren Marshall if possible as he seesm to have th eruns on the board.

Can you tell me if there has ever been a claim through IKO here in Australia or overseas ? If yes, is there any where we can view all the details that transpired?

Also, can you guys answer these few queries for me:

1. Has anyone ever failed a course after paying their ~7-800 bucks? How many if yes?

2. Is there a limit to the number of IKO tickets handed out to willing buyers
per country or area?

3. Is it true that the IKO insurance is based in/from the Dominican Republic?

4. What is IKO's view of mixing instruction with retailing equipment and vice versa etc?

5. Are IKO working in with AKSA at all, or is it the case that there is alot of animosity between the two parties that I have been hearing about on the grapevine?

--------------------------------------------

Believe me, I can see the legal aspect and PL issues which are obvious, but I can not for the life of me help but see what I see on a regular basis, IKO people attempting to teach people and seeing carnage all the time. Such as giving a student a kite to control on sand banks or out of any water at the start - always seeing people get spanked hard soon thereafter.
The people giving the lesson (IKO qualified) being relatively inexperienced kiters in their own right - this I just can not understand? Eg can only just kite upwind.
And the list goes on.

The people who are the local IKO qualified, teaching in areas of questionable safety due to no other suitable locations nearby, but also due most proably pressure to 'pump' the punters through. A year or so ago, one prominent shop who shall remain nameless bragged to me of the numbers they had pumped through the system and that they were aiming for 300 next season.

Those of you who know me know I have been doing lessons for a few years. I have seriously thought about doing the IKO system from time to time, but all of the above points of note just make me think the system is seriously flawed.

I have had nothing but praise from my lessons and teaching methods and could not count the number of times I have had people come to me after the IKO 'experience' saying that they were very dissapointed with the service they received. In saying this though, we are always learning so my methods are by no means the best I am sure. They are the best for me though.

As most of you know, I do very few lessons these days, and I am very selective with who I take under my wing to pass on the knowledge I have the best I can. Why would I want to pump out hundreds of people and just over crowd our already limited resources/beaches.

Anyhow, enough rambling from me. I respect each and everyones decision to do what they do for whatever they think is right - I wish we all did........

Looking forward to the answers to my questions above please.

Thanks

Kurt

Bigwavedave

QLD

2057 posts

Bigwavedave

QLD, 2057 posts

1 Nov 2007 9:50am

the skipper said...

Bigwavedave said...

You cannot get public liability insurance to cover you to teach kitesurfing from any broker in Australia without satisfying the following criteria:

IKO insurance is provided by Zurich and based in Germany not DR.

Kitehard is correct in that there are very few underwriters who provide PL for kitesurfing instruction. The ones that do charge an enormous amount of $. (which explains the cost of lessons). IKO insurance is cheaper than Oz insurance because the policy has hundreds of members subscribing to the same policy. (like your AKSA insurance).

Retailers PL does not cover lessons on public beaches without specifically exempting the local council from liability.

PS KUSU. Your questions re AKSA and IKO can be answered by a quick email to [email protected]. I don't think AKSA participate in debates in this forum.

kusu

QLD

485 posts

kusu

QLD, 485 posts

1 Nov 2007 11:22am

Dave - it was done some time ago and I got a reply. I just want clarification on it from an IKO and general kiter perspectives along with everyone else I am sure who enjoys open communication on these forums.

mrbonk

NSW

483 posts

mrbonk

NSW, 483 posts

1 Nov 2007 1:36pm

I've recently started a kitesurf business (shameless plug: www.kitesurfobsession.com.au) and I'm just about to do the IKO course in Brisbane this month. My reasons for this are twofold.

Firstly, it means that when I start offering lessons and someone asks me what qualifications I have, I can display an internationally recognised certification. I could simply say "Well, I'm doing it aren't I?", but as I mentioned earlier, just because you can do something doesn't mean you can teach it too.

Secondly, I think that as the sport grows, we're going to have to display some significant efforts at self regulation. I think it's inevitable that the sport will eventually draw critical attention to itself. When that happens, the powers that be are going to want to know that we're all doing what we can to keep the sport safe. Unfortunately, simply doing it won't be enough......we're going to have to prove it. I see participation in programmes like the IKO course as a way to do that. I guess you could think of it as a pre-emptive strike. I would hate to see forced regulation imposed upon the sport because we were unable to sort ourselves out, so I'm more than happy to do whatever I can right now to potentially avoid that later on.

Bigwavedave

QLD

2057 posts

Bigwavedave

QLD, 2057 posts

1 Nov 2007 1:41pm

kusu said...

Dave - it was done some time ago and I got a reply. I just want clarification on it from an IKO and general kiter perspectives along with everyone else I am sure who enjoys open communication on these forums.

Sorry Kusu, was unaware of that. My bad.

SurfConnect

QLD

1674 posts

SurfConnect

QLD, 1674 posts

1 Nov 2007 5:24pm

Well done Mr Bonk you are right on track for a successful long term business venture, and I wish you the very best. At the end of the day, those teaching without qualifications/insurance will not last, and will be taken out by the system one way or another so you dont have to worry too much about them.

Yes, you are absolutely right, ever since I set up my school in Brisbane and flew the IKO flag, business has been overwhelming. I now have 6 registered instructors working 7 days a week and often I have 3-4 lessons running at the same time at the weekends.

You might need to start looking at gear too. Having good gear/setup will reflect on your professionalism and attitude towards your business. We have 8 school kites on standby, 12 helmets, 12 vests, 12 harnesses, all 2008 gear. We also use the headzone communication system with built in radios in the helmets. On top, we have safety boat and jetski at hand, and all the required safety procedures in place. It will be hard to beat our setup. And as a result, we very seldom have a student who came to us for a first lesson and didnt return for a 2nd or 3rd. We set ourselves up as a premium school and yes, we are also the most expensive one in Brisbane too. But hey, you get what you pay for. If you are looking for cheap non-professional tuition, you might as well go down to your local beach, pick the best kid and ask them to teach you and give them $20 pocket money. At least they cant be sued! Most times they kite much better than the cowboys instructors anyway!

I support both AKSA & IKO. AKSA is the national organisation that links each State together, offering its members a listing of benefits. IKO is deemed to be the International Organisation that supports a number of national orgs around the world in instructors/examiners and a list of benefits to its members also. Both AKSA & IKO offer insurance for kiters and both have their pros and cons. I have put the two side by side at my website so people can compare and decide which one suits them better. I advice all kiters to have insurance to cover themselves while kiting. Some home policies can extend to cover their gear if stolen or damaged in an accident. I am aware of 2 claims in the past month that if the kiter did not have insurance, the damage would have hurt a bit.

Uncle Rico

NSW

200 posts

Uncle Rico

NSW, 200 posts

1 Nov 2007 6:52pm

is there anything illegal about teaching a mate to kite?

Bigwavedave

QLD

2057 posts

Bigwavedave

QLD, 2057 posts

1 Nov 2007 5:56pm

nope.

Kitehard

2782 posts

Kitehard

WA, 2782 posts

2 Nov 2007 12:42am

Hi Kusu,

Sorry for the short answers but it's 10.30pm and I haven't had dinner or finished cleaning the gear down so I'll be brief. Please feel free to call me and I would be happy to discuss any concerns you may have.

Good winds,

Darren Marshall
IKO Examiner

kusu said...

I know this has come up before here and on other forums. But I have some genuine questions - prefer these to be answered by Darren Marshall if possible as he seesm to have th eruns on the board.

Thanks Mate!

Can you tell me if there has ever been a claim through IKO here in Australia or overseas ? If yes, is there any where we can view all the details that transpired?

I have no knowledge of there being a claim on the IKO insurance policy here in Australia, as for overseas???? Don't know, I've never asked.
Also, can you guys answer these few queries for me:

1. Has anyone ever failed a course after paying their ~7-800 bucks? How many if yes?

Yes. 2 from memory. Although, many fail initially and are later deemed competent once they make good the area they are deficient in. Just ask the guys and girls from the Sydney course where we had no wind and no one passed on the day because the could not demonstrate live teaching ability!

2. Is there a limit to the number of IKO tickets handed out to willing buyers
per country or area?

I assume you mean Instructor Diplomas. No there is no limit. There is a high natural rate of attrition and turn over as many drop out, or get full time jobs, or are from OS, or go teaching OS. I'd say about 1-2 per course stick at it for longer than 2 years. Meaning 75% drop it after they realise how hard and stressful it can be.

3. Is it true that the IKO insurance is based in/from the Dominican Republic?

No, there HQ or office is in the DR. Zurich is the underwriter and they are based in Germany.

4. What is IKO's view of mixing instruction with retailing equipment and vice versa etc?

The IKO have no real opinion of retailing and Tuition apart from they recommend offering value to customers by offering additional services which often entails retailing gear.

5. Are IKO working in with AKSA at all, or is it the case that there is alot of animosity between the two parties that I have been hearing about on the grapevine?

AKSA have been an agent or stockist of IKO stuff for the past years. There is a huge change coming as a very astute business woman has returned to IKO as CEO and is overhauling the entire system, website, training method, feedback and disciplining their members. We are going to see a good change over the next 6 months. Stay tuned .....
--------------------------------------------

Believe me, I can see the legal aspect and PL issues which are obvious, but I can not for the life of me help but see what I see on a regular basis, IKO people attempting to teach people and seeing carnage all the time. Such as giving a student a kite to control on sand banks or out of any water at the start - always seeing people get spanked hard soon thereafter.
The people giving the lesson (IKO qualified) being relatively inexperienced kiters in their own right - this I just can not understand? Eg can only just kite upwind.
And the list goes on.

The people who are the local IKO qualified, teaching in areas of questionable safety due to no other suitable locations nearby, but also due most proably pressure to 'pump' the punters through. A year or so ago, one prominent shop who shall remain nameless bragged to me of the numbers they had pumped through the system and that they were aiming for 300 next season.

Those of you who know me know I have been doing lessons for a few years. I have seriously thought about doing the IKO system from time to time, but all of the above points of note just make me think the system is seriously flawed.

I have had nothing but praise from my lessons and teaching methods and could not count the number of times I have had people come to me after the IKO 'experience' saying that they were very dissapointed with the service they received. In saying this though, we are always learning so my methods are by no means the best I am sure. They are the best for me though.

As most of you know, I do very few lessons these days, and I am very selective with who I take under my wing to pass on the knowledge I have the best I can. Why would I want to pump out hundreds of people and just over crowd our already limited resources/beaches.

Anyhow, enough rambling from me. I respect each and everyones decision to do what they do for whatever they think is right - I wish we all did........

Looking forward to the answers to my questions above please.

Thanks

Kurt

youngbull

QLD

826 posts

youngbull

QLD, 826 posts

2 Nov 2007 4:35am

I am starting to get a little disappointed in the reply's that have followed a really good topic i dislike when people plug there business or name a business due to many reason's..

IKO can be a good thing and a bad thing

IKO licensed means you are so so liable for your student it can bite you in the bum. But that's a good thing to cause you should know what you are doing. And yes you are responsible for the remafacations of you actions.

there are so many people who wish to take up this fantastic and growing sport. people are going to abuse this rating. Making money is good for yourself but not always for the greater good of the consumer (students).

I enjoy kitting and yes i could say i am addicted and am very passionate about it, and what people have to say about it. Many kitters would not like me due to the reason i will not always support locations due to council regulations for the simple reason is every time i go to a particular spot north/south of my general area the people are very tight nit and not willing to help/talk to/ just even be friendly. It gets under my skin, i am helpful offer genuine good advice, and do every thing possible to promote the sport in a good fashion. And yes i pass this on to other's, funny enough i see them nearly every weekend after only meeting them once...

...

I have no time in people that do not want to listen.
Yes i am still a novice but having an IKO ticket is never going to be in my porfolio due to the way it is offered and handed out like candy to children..(i am iko give me a sponser t-shirt,,, Sorry had to have my plug

).....This does not apply to all.....
Take note to all you wanabee;s w/out iko and those who are going to get iko instructors course, you will feel the pinch when your in court and getting locations or the sport banned.

THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL. AND AS A SECOND REMINDER I AM NOT A SHOP OR HAVE AN INVESTED INTEREST IN ONE. I AM SIMPLY A KITTER WHO WISHES TO SPEAK HIS MIND ON A TOPIC THAT IS UNTOUCHED BUT MANY.
KEEP IT REAL, KEEP IT CLEAN, PLEASE NO NAMING IT RUINS THE TOPIC....

kusu

QLD

485 posts

kusu

QLD, 485 posts

2 Nov 2007 7:52am

Thanks for your reply Darren.

I'll be watching from the sidelines to see how it all pans out over the next 6 months.

Bigwavedave

QLD

2057 posts

Bigwavedave

QLD, 2057 posts

2 Nov 2007 8:43am

hey youngbull,

The sport is growing and nothing is really gonna slow it down. Despite your misgivings about IKO, they are the only organisation who certify, train and monitor the instruction process.

Beach closures from irresponsible instructors will not be as a result of an IKO Center. These schools work with councils and are in regular communication with the people who are the ones who control the restrictions.

As soon as you take money for teaching someone to kitesurf you become liable for the actions of your student during the lesson. At least the IKO provides their Centers with PL insurance. Its the uninsured operators that will be in court getting the sport banned.

Like it or not, the days are nearly gone where you can teach on a beach for cash without getting noticed. There has to be an organised way to get into the sport.

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