A learner is the most dangerous kiter out there, when i learnt i went to a beach with no one around and just practiced for hours with 2 mates who were also learning. I kept out of everyones way. Brighton is an intermediate/advanced spot, it has rocks at both ends of the beach and a 200m span, with 15 kiters out there it is no place for learner who is cross sectioning the beach, there are better spots with heaps of sand.

Why a learner would want to go near rocks is beyond me, I have seen many a kiter come to grief up there. As for St Kilda when i learnt I showed a lot of respect up there, I didn't kite up in the advanced area for two years, my instructor at the time told me to steer clear until i was as good as those guys in there as it is a tight spot and can be dangerous.

When I learnt i listened to anyone who was better than me, nowadays there is a lot of attitude but I am afraid it is coming from the learners and inexperienced, these guys who learn on bow kites, with their particular stances and kites that fly at 11 o'clock all the time and struggle to hold an edge are the dangers. Anyone with experience in any sport shows respect when going to a new spot, whether it is surfing, snowboarding or kiting, without this sort of etiquette there is anarchy.

A slow rider should not be up there and for Lobster to say he can turn whenever and wherever he wants is reckless, first he needs to look behind to see if it is all clear to turn, secondly as it is a narrow stretch of beach that we are talking about he needs to run the length before turning so as not to put everyone out of whack, as everyone is trying to assume everyone elses movements based on what happens historically in there, if you haven't kited there you wouldn't understand.

Lobster said...

Think about the same situation on the street....

Lobster

In the street people are forced to wear a big L or P. There are speed restrictions on them. The L's can't even drive alone, they need help. Are you suggesting this for kitesurfing?

Having and great ride and consideration of others needs to be weighed up. A newb in a small crowed spot is not a good idea and people will crack the ****s. Of course this doesn't have to be agro and rude..... the consideration of others has to go both ways.

mike

Lobster, have you kited at St Kilda? The only reason I ask is that if you saw the area you would understand what the others are saying. Learners should not be in the 'kiddie pool' as it is shallow and narrow. There is plenty of space to learn, and dare I say better for a learner. I learnt at the bigger 'choppy' end as this was the done thing and I am better off for it. For one there wasn't anyone I could hit on my out of control downwinders {except doogle}. And I think by learning in chop you get a better understanding of board control, even if it was out of control most of the time I think what everyone is getting at is that there is no need for the learners to be in there as this creates a bigger danger than usual, nothing against them as we were all beginners once. Let the advanced kiters do there thing, and let the learners do there thing, just two seperate areas.

Where did I advise a learner to go kitesurfing at a spot where a lot of advanced kiter accumulate? I did not post that and I did not recommend it! So stop making something up.

In regards to L-P-Plates.. Do you think it makes a difference when you bump into a P-Platers Boot? Do you think he has to pay the repair because he is the P-Plater? As far as I know there is a kind of P-Plate that is very obvious in kitesurfing .. Called P(oo)-Stands! You as the advanced rider easily can spot a beginner due to his posture or his lack of board control .. And if you notice it why don't you give him a bit more space. You are able to do it because you have the board control and skill .. He doesn't.

And at bowski... sorry mate but who gives you the right to make your own priority rules? To make it crystal clear ..if you bump into someone else kite because you have not given him enough space or you are not skilled enough to turn your kite fast e enough when you see him turning than its your fault and you are not to blame anybody else for the mess caused even not at St. Kilda or anywhere else full stop end of story. It does not make any difference if you are ruben Len10 or Hadlow or just a little local who can do some simple backrolls.

It might be helpful for some of you to refresh your memories (or it seems to be for a few of you the first time):

http://www.ikointl.com/priority_rules.php?menu_id=2

Lobster

I think in some cases the beginners are not completely innocent either. There are some beginners with major attitude, try tell them what or where they should be and you get a death stare from hell and some couldn't even be bothered to respond.

Tie that in with 10 beginners all standing with their kites about their heads standing along the sandbank 20m apart, 2 or 3 instructors handling body dragging and you have absolutely zero room to launch.

So that begs the following questions:

1. Why do beginners insist on walk back upwind on the sandbank instead of the shore?
2. Why do beginners insist on standing with their kites above their heads, some doing nothing more than standing their with their kites about their heads?
3. Why do beginners insist on separating themselves along the sandbag leaving no room for anyone else to launch.

As St Kilda stands right now, I see the following major problems:

1. Instructors start body dragging at the top tip of the sandbank to give their students more room to bodydrag downwind - don't know if I agree with this logic, it puts other riders directly downwind of the beginners who are least likely to be in control

2. Beginners insist on walking right to the top of the sandbank to give themselves more room to go downwind, again, this puts the riders with less control directly upwind of other riders, not smart.

3. Intermediate riders are forced to launch downwind of complete beginners, not a comforting site when you see someone upwind of yourself who is battling to keep control of their kite and put the board on at the same time.

The major issue I see is I don't see why beginners, instructors and learners should "own" the entire launch area downwind of the advanced zone, there still needs to be place for the average rider to launch.

Solution

1. Have a launching zone only for the first 30 or so meters and force the instructors to move slightly downwind (not going to gain me any popularity). That gives people the chance to ride out past the beginners (who are normally within 100m of shore)

2. Move beginners to midway down the sandbank, hey it'll inconvenience them a little but at least people can launch and land without getting taken out.

Hey Saffer, sounds like your friend had a pretty rough time in the water at Brighton that day.
3 years ago when I started I spent a lot of time at Hampton beach. It is a long beach, not too crowded and usually has cross on-shore winds - perfect for beginners to tack out and back then walk up wind for another go.
There is no reef, few submerged rocks, and if you get blown way down wind past the rock groin there are more beaches to safely land on.

In my opinion is is the best beach for beginners. I'd recommend it to your mate, especially since he lives in Highett! I've kited all around the bay since then, however didn't dare venture out at St Kilda till last year when I felt I was more than capable and in control, despite the fact it has been my local beach the whole time.

Anyone for a chill pill?

Lobster said...

At Saffer: I still do not understand why instructor do there lessons at those packed spots? Thats just dumb. Its too dangerous for their students and it will cause lots of trouble for anybody else.

Unfortunately it works well for the schools that operate out of St.K because of the large amount of pedestrian traffic that goes past their booths/vans/tents, they get a huge amount of people taking brochures who then come back there for their lessons.

IMHO St Kilda doesn't work too badly.
The advanced area which i call 'the pond' is a bit of a weird place. Personally i don't venture in there on a normal day (3+ kiters in there) as i don't want to impinge on their space. If they're actually experienced riders and not just posers then i expect to see them pulling tricks and working hard for that space. If they're just tacking back and forward then they really shouldn't be in there. The only times i've ventured into the advanced area was when there was 1 other kiter in there and i was just practicing boosting as big as i could and i went in there to avoid spooking the other intermediates that were cruising ~40m off the main sand bar.

I do support the suggestion that the schools giving lessons shouldn't be walking out on the island bit between the pond and the sand bar as it is closing off the main launch path for the majority of us 'intermediates', but i understand that they are trying to maximise the downwind stretch that their newbies can use.

Looking at the KBV website, you can see that the kiting setup was done so that the advanced area is the most upwind, followed by intermediate, followed by the lessons area which then flows down into the beginner area. If people (schools included!!!) actually followed this it'd work quite well. In my time kiting i've noticed that the schools are pushing for more and more space, and as such they've expanded more and more upwind towards the advanced area. Fair enough, they're a commercial operation so they're there to teach and make money out of it... but as i see it by teaching that far up the beach they're encouraging their freshly graduated newbies to also kite in the middle launch and landing zone for the majority of us kiters who fall into the intermediate bracket.

Bowski said...

Just a question for you Wookster, what level of kiter are you?

I've kited for 3 years (in London) and I'm now a fairly competent rider. Not doing handle passes but I'm doing a few tricks and staying upwind comfortably. Most definitely not a beginner.

I do agree that total beginners (who as you say tend to have their kite in the air at 12 o'clock) stay in a different area but to be honest the attitude I got from old arrogant d!ckhead (OADH) was just breathtaking. To do a move, forcing someone to take evasive maneouvers to avoid a collision and then to have the audacity to tell them they have to know what they are doing...

Wookster, where did you ride in London? On the Thames? ;-) Seriously, what gets defined as busy at St Kilda is nothing like Hayling Island on a windy summers day. That is some character building stuff.

From personal experience as I got better I found it was easier to stay further away from the beach, as the body draggers stay in there, along with those beating the crap out of themselves to learn how to water start. There is nothing more arse-twitchingly bad as standing there on the beach trying to get out and get moving when guys are ripping right in and doing turns and transitions 5m from the shore just so that everyone else can see them. It's the most dangerous time/aspect of kiting, that 2 mins where you launch and walk out to the water.

If you are confident enough to jump then you should be confident enough to ride away from the shore to give others space. And if you are engaged in a water sport where you haven't got the fitness to swim at least 200m (as I had to one day at St Kilda after a collision and my flag line was cut, leaving me with nothing to blow me into shore) then I suggest kiteboarding is the wrong sport for you.

Jumpers and those turning must always give way. The person in the air (generally) puts themself in that position and for a moment in time, is pretty much a slave to his kite and the wind. If you pull the trigger, you better be sure you aren't going to hit someone.

A lot of the time I think people get absorbed into what they are doing and have zero awareness of what is going on around them. Remember all the stuff you have to think about when you are learning how to kite that becomes second nature later on? Those learning are concentrating on a lot of things intermediates and above do without thinking.

If you are riding into shore, and a guy is 30m ahead of you, and is running out of water you should be pre-empting his change of direction. The last time I checked in Sailing there is a little rule called land room or buoy room where you have to give way to a vessel that needs to change direction to avoid running aground. Sure, the guy changing direction generally has to give way but if he's running out of water he is going to make a decision pretty soon!

When I learnt to sail as a little tacker I spent a LOT of time learning the rules of the road, the first rule being collisions are to be avoided at all times, even if you have the right of way. In racing a collision can result in both boats being penalised. When I learnt to kite the rules of the road was taught but not tested to see if it had sunk in. Perhaps IKO schools should have a standard booklet that all newbies get to keep, to use as a reminder of how things work, and maybe you should be tested at some stage during the course. Excessive maybe, but kitesurfing has just as much potential to hurt someone as many other water craft.

Given the interest in this past thread relating to kiting at StKilda thought I'd add to it from what happened on Saturday at the beach near the Vic Titles. A wonderful event was held for all however there was a very disturbing incident by one seriously brain dead kiter.

The "kiter" [Pat from Mordialic?? I think] attempted to use the new RMYS small boat ramp hand rail as a slider. For those that do not know the aarea this ramp is ajacent to the footpath and leads onto the sand covered beach. The water is some 10 meters away so there was no way the action was a legitimate kiteboarding action.

Apart from placing all the public sitting on the sea wall in danger your actions run the risk of adding to the public's view that kiters are irresponsible. Quite apart from the RMYS who have the area under their lease using thier ramp to endanger others and yourself. When you fell y your very large kite crashed twice onto the shoreline rather than the people sitting on the sea wall. I understand "Pat" injured himself on the second attempt at sliding - and he stopped his foolish antics - so maybe there is a God.

I suggest "Pat" you and your mates don't kite at StKilda as you run the risk of having the beach restricted - suggest you use your own "backyard" rather than mine.

You and others may care to know that a prime KBV's policy is to keep all beaches open to all kiters and your stupid actions went along way to undoing KBV's good work.