NASA guide to kites

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anton
anton
202 posts
202 posts
12 Jun 2005 8:02am


Instead of the ignorant urinal-trough rant of some, check out the NASA site for the Beginner's Guide to Kites...

www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/shortk.html

...some cool interactive stuff there as well as other aerodynamics/nautics info in layman terms.




NorthSide
NorthSide
WA
238 posts
WA, 238 posts
12 Jun 2005 9:18am
A fantastic, constructive and educational web site. Nice find Anton, and thanks for posting it.
Danger Dave
Danger Dave
WA
61 posts
WA, 61 posts
12 Jun 2005 11:36am
So where does it explain the relationship between the the speed of a kite about a fixed point and its apparantly centripedal force upon the fixed point it is flown from. Does a great job of explaining the flight but not in explaining the force upon the flyer. All systems are static and are ignoring dynamic movement of the kite around the flyer. What if the kite is flying across the window and lift is perpendicular to the mass of the kite subject to gravitational acceleration?

The question is can any of you derive a formula to link the movement of a kite in circular motion using the proportional lift component (lift being proportional to velocity of the apparant wind created by the circular motion) generated by the wing and come up with a net force and hence work done upon the flyer at any given line length.

How do you like them apples!

Clue: Think about a kites movement in a no wind situiation lets say if the kite was thrown through the window and no REAL wind was present.

I'll send a prize to the winner!

Bonne chance!

Dave....
richo
richo
QLD
337 posts
QLD, 337 posts
12 Jun 2005 2:15pm
well **** a simple 2nd order differential equation should do the trick[}:)] dave we all know that
It is not hard physics really. A pretty busy vector equation though.

What are ya a maths or physics teacher or perhaps an engineer that has not had enough drugs. If so i can help you. I have something here that will see to it that that enormous pulsating mass of grey matter between your shoulders never bothers you again.he he [}:)]
Danger Dave
Danger Dave
WA
61 posts
WA, 61 posts
12 Jun 2005 12:30pm
Give it to me please!!!

I am addicted to this site www.perplexus.info.

Anything to challenge the grey matter would be welcomed! not drugs.

Any yes in theory the calculus is not tough but working the equation to differ. could be quite the challenge!

I am just interested that nasa thought it wasn't relevant. but then again it really is one step away from the fundamental reasoning in kite flight which I am sure was what they intended on explaining.

Dave.
NorthSide
NorthSide
WA
238 posts
WA, 238 posts
12 Jun 2005 1:02pm

L = (1/2) d v2 s CL

L = Lift, which must equal the airplane's weight in pounds
d = density of the air. This will change due to altitude.
v = velocity of an aircraft expressed in feet per second
s = the wing area of an aircraft in square feet
CL = Coefficient of lift , which is determined by the type of airfoil and angle of attack.

Dave, this formula applies to any force generated by an aerofiol of any sort... including yacht sails. Even when the kite is over our head we have dynamic pressure. The air is doing the moving... or is it the earth, us and the kite that is moving? Or both?
Also, I believe you mean centrifugal force which is mostly generated by the acting lift force. There would need to be greater weight at the kite end to generate a significant centrifugal force.
Angular acceleration = (final angular velocity - initial angular velocity) ÷ time
The lift forces will tend to lift the kite up, while the centrifugal forces will tend to pull the kite down.

In the lift formula we can/ or nature can change the following:

(d)DENSITY: the denser the air, the more molecules there are for the same parcel of air. On a hot day compared to a cold one the kite would need to move faster relative to physical distance travelled to generate the same amount of lift. But remember, denser air also means increased drag.

(v)VELOCITY: This is fairly self explanetry. The faster we move the kite through the air, the more lift we will generate. But once again the drag increases with velocity unproportionately to a point where we need too much thrust to go any faster. A couple of JATO rockets on the wingtips of our kites might help here.

(S)SURFACE AREA: This can sort of change this with kites but not much. If it were rigid it could not change unless it were like a swept wing aircraft. Swept wing aircraft use this to their advantage for greater surface area exposed for slow controlled flight and swept back (lower drag) for high speed flight. There are other factors t play here as well such as manouverablity. More on the swept wing jet at the end to paint a picture.

(CL)Co-efficient Of Lift: With the kite we can shorten or lenghten lines to increase or decrease the 'angle of attack' (AOA). Or just pull back on the bar!
Angle of attack is the angle between the kites chord line and the direct airflow.

***The swept wing jet is cruising along, straight and level, 2000 ft agl at Mach .9 with its wings swept back. It now wants to slow down to 210 knots whilst maintaining straight and level.
Now if we take our Lift formula we can see that if we decrease velocity we need to increase atleast one other thing to maintain a Lift force equally opposing the weight force to maintain straight and level. We could increase the aircrafts angle of attack (still maintaing straight and level), the lower the velocity, the higher the angle of attack required until we reach our critical angle where the airflow over the top of the wing starts to break away, the centre of pressure moves forward and the nose drops... we have stalled.
Or we could extend the wings changing the shape & surface area. This is changing Co-effient of Lift AND surface area.
In fact, our swept wing jet will extend its wings and increase its angle of attack as it decreases velocity to maintain straight and level flight.

Something interesting to note is that aspect ratio is a powerful indicator of the general performance of a wing. Wingtip vortices greatly deteriorate the performance of a wing, and by reducing the amount of wing tip area, making it skinny or pointed for instance, you reduce the amount of energy lost to this process, and increase the lift generated by the wing. This is why high performance gliders have very long, skinny wings; with no engine power, they must be as efficient as possible in every respect in order to stay aloft.
Most birds have wings with a wide aspect ratio, and with tapered or elliptical tips. This is particularly noticeable on soaring birds such as the Albatross and Eagles. In addition, the V-formation (echelon) often seen in flights of geese, ducks and other migratory birds can be considered to act as a single swept wing with a very high aspect ratio - the vortices shed by the lead bird are smoothly transferred to the next and so on. This confers a huge efficiency advantage to the flight as a whole - perhaps as much as a 100% improvement compared to a single bird in flight. Note that the usual common explanation of the V-formation - that following birds are "shielded" from air resistance by the bird in front - may be misleading. While birds do "take turns" at being the lead bird, it is probably to give those at the tips a rest - they are the ones that will experience the most drag when the vortices are finally shed.

Basically my wife will know the formulas' for what you are asking.
I will see what I can come up with before I ask her, but I've tried to cover the stuff I do know. Centrifugal force is an area I need to do a little more study on. I understand how they work in an aerobatic aircraft.
Also, I reckon Brownee may be able to explain more as well.
anton
anton
202 posts
202 posts
12 Jun 2005 1:27pm
quote:
Originally posted by richo

well **** a simple 2nd order differential equation should do the trick[}:)] dave we all know that
It is not hard physics really. A pretty busy vector equation though.

What are ya a maths or physics teacher or perhaps an engineer that has not had enough drugs. If so i can help you. I have something here that will see to it that that enormous pulsating mass of grey matter between your shoulders never bothers you again.he he [}:)]



Chemists have solutions!
NorthSide
NorthSide
WA
238 posts
WA, 238 posts
12 Jun 2005 1:45pm
Dave,
If you wish to understand the principles of kite flight then THINK about what a kite really is... it is not all that difficult.
And the wind??? AIRFLOW over the surface of the kite is not created by circular motion! It is generated by forward motion... very simply put: Air has to travel further (therefore faster) over the top of the aerofoil than the bottom to get from the leading edge to the trailing edge at the same time. Now this creates an area of lower pressure on the top of the wing than the bottom. Like a balloon, weather patterns etc, air will try to get from the area of higher pressure to the area of lower pressure...
Forget your angular, circular motion/ force theory. You are entirely over looking the basic principles and your question is a load of rubbish. The Force upon the flyer/ rider is just simple, plain good old lift. If Lift > greater Weight (or and drag) then kiter will get pulled along or upwards; If Weight > Lift then kiter will not go so far! The kite only goes in an arc because it needs to some how be attached to us, yes? Break down the kite movement to small distances and you will see that it is always moving forward to any relative airflow, whether that be through wind or it being dived up and down (an apparent wind). It does accelerate, as in when you move the kite through any part of the arc it is changing its linear direction. But, the force acts perpendicular to the forward motion. Draw an imaginary right angle. one forwards in the direction of the relative airflow (not angle of attack) and one pointing straight out from the top of the kite. No matter where the kite is, this is our lift force (the right angle pointing out through the top of the kite surface). And voila, that is why the kite will try and lift us straight up out of the water when it is flown over your head in a strong gust. It is why the kite sits deeper in the power zone in low winds (greater angle of attack needed).
If you want to use your brain to work out relationships between angular acceleration, lift, retreating blade stall, blade dynamics, etc... then you could study helicopter performance and aerodynamics.
There really aren't any apples involved.
If you like number puzzles you should try Su Do Ku (a Japanese numbers game).
Danger Dave
Danger Dave
WA
61 posts
WA, 61 posts
12 Jun 2005 1:54pm
none of that wing theory can directly calculate the effect of the centripedal acceleration and its effect on the windspeeed and hence the lift of the kite....

Centrifugal is different to centripedal. centripedal acceleration is proportional to centrifugal force of course. Centrifugal force is the force exerted upon a body of mass in circular motion like the kite. Hence why when we use a centrifuge to split the components of blood the force splits the components into levels of according density. Centrifugal force is why you can swing a full bucket of water over your head and not get wet. When the centripedal acceleration of your swinging arm is sufficient so that the mass of the water has a force component equal to or greater than the acceleration of gravity you won't get wet. The forca and the acceleration go hand in hand. Although.... does that mean that the centrifugal force of the kite is negligable. It has mass? Hey theres another spanner for the works.

We can treat the Kite window system as one of centrifugal force if we treat the lifting force of the kite as the force of a body of mass at a velocity (momentum). This could get very tricky but that could be a fun one to work out too.

Je pense c'est vrai!

Dave.
Danger Dave
Danger Dave
WA
61 posts
WA, 61 posts
12 Jun 2005 4:45pm
OK so i got off topic! My bad.

Anyway all I wanted to say is that it isn't just simple wing aero stuff. I wanted to see someone acknowledge that the nasa diagrams are static systems where the kite remains in stationary eqilibrium. When the kite is moving through the window however it has a component of centripedal acceleration which is in some way directly proportional to the velocity of the wing and therefore will affect the lift. Thought someone might have a eureka moment but no luck.

Anyway I tire of everyone misunderstanding my words and it might be because I am a complete idiot. It has happened before. The first time someone explained relativity to me I was so confused I forgot where I lived, luckily I met a double jointed supermodel with an open minded twin sister and they let me stay at their place because their father was away on business negotiating the sale of the patent on the worlds first permanent hair removal creme. It was a smooth night!

Dave.
NorthSide
NorthSide
WA
238 posts
WA, 238 posts
12 Jun 2005 10:42pm
Quote:
Centrifugal force is why you can swing a full bucket of water over your head and not get wet. When the centripedal acceleration of your swinging arm is sufficient so that the mass of the water has a force component equal to or greater than the acceleration of gravity you won't get wet.

Thanks Dave, you just concluded your own argument. We are not swinging a kite around us like a bucket of water. I understand Centrifugal @ Centripetal (suppossed) Forces. We are flying the kite, not swinging it. NASA test wings/ aerofoils in a wind tunnel. The aerofoil does not infact have to be moving relative to us. The kite does not have to be moving, just air flow RELATIVE to the kite.
I hate that when you can't grasp a concept and it keeps you up all night.
Q.Did you hear about the dislexic, aetheist with insomnia?
A.He stayed up all night pondering if dog really exists.
richo
richo
QLD
337 posts
QLD, 337 posts
13 Jun 2005 8:09am
yea there are some great sites out the and nasa has gotta be one of the best. Had a look at the f22 or f15 on steriods- man wow Those guys and girls sure are the choosen few
NSW, 4382 posts
13 Jun 2005 8:09am
Originally posted by NorthSide

Dave,
If you wish to understand the principles of kite flight then THINK about what a kite really is... it is not all that difficult.
And the wind??? AIRFLOW over the surface of the kite is not created by circular motion! It is generated by forward motion... very simply put: Air has to travel further (therefore faster) over the top of the aerofoil than the bottom to get from the leading edge to the trailing edge at the same time. Now this creates an area of lower pressure on the top of the wing than the bottom. Like a balloon, weather patterns etc, air will try to get from the area of higher pressure to the area of lower pressure...


G'day Northside

Yesterday was a difficult day in my business, and I can see why now.
Dave works at Kitepower.

The theory you mention above, has been debunked. There is no force known that makes 2 molecules of air that were adjacent to each other, before being separated by an airfoil, that forces those 2 molecules of air to meet at the other end of the airfoil, at the same point in time.

All of the Nasa website assumptions are based on single line kites.

I have never seen a good description of the forces that act on a DUAL LINE kite like a delta wind sport kite.

When you fly one of those kites indoors, in NO WIND, then that is when Dave's brilliant mind went into hyperdrive.

The AOA of a sport kite is determined by its bridle and the point that it is in, within its wind window. There are some dual line sport kites that have bridles that have a certain amount of self adjusting ability.

The wind window is determined by the lines and the fixed or moving flyer, depending on whether the flyer is inside a building flying in still air or outside in natural wind. You could say they are the same, however when you fly a lightweight specially designed sport kite indoors, you will not say that.
The wind window indoors is doubled, over that of a kite flown in moving air.

The angle of the wind acting on a dual line sport kite is constantly changing, and there are an infinite number of points within a wind window, where you could plot that angle.

Thats what makes dual line sport kites (and all kites) fun and interesting to our brilliant minds, to fly.

Have fun

Cya and

Goodwinds/Air

Steve McCormack
Danger Dave
Danger Dave
WA
61 posts
WA, 61 posts
13 Jun 2005 10:46am
I know that a wing is subject to lift as you described. All I wanted to point out was that this wing is in circular motion which makes everything a little more interesting but in no way different.

I never said that kites are subject to any force you haven't already described. I merely wanted to point out that there is a relationship between the wings centripedal acceleration and its velocity and hence lift. This is why kites depower and power up depending on your edging becuase you are in fact altering the centripedal acceleration which changes the velocity of the wing.

We could have had an intelectual picnic but now its a massacre.

Im over it let's agree to disagree.

Sometimes my point is a little scattered. I am working on being more concise when communicating an idea. Give me time.

Just dont write me off for having a go.

Dave out.
richo
richo
QLD
337 posts
QLD, 337 posts
13 Jun 2005 6:22pm
hay dave do not let it discourage you. I could not resist poking a bit o fun at ya and for the record i am pretty sure 2nd order differentials have nothing to do with. he he.

Dave did you even ask about the theory of flight[}:)] or were just pointing out a possible interesting relationship between lift and the conversion of this lift to centrifugal force.

remember chemists have solutions
urine? he he he
richo
richo
QLD
337 posts
QLD, 337 posts
13 Jun 2005 6:28pm
wow reading these threads made my head ache thought i was back a uni hiding in the dunnies desparatly reading notes for an exam that were no hope at all. Physics exams are like that very hard to cheat. For the record i passed and hope never to have to think that hard again. Good to see everyone taking such an interest. Perhaps you should all give NASA a call
NorthSide
NorthSide
WA
238 posts
WA, 238 posts
13 Jun 2005 5:26pm
Fair play. Sorry I got a little carried away. Is nice to dig deep into the realms of the grey matter once in a while. I get to spend up to 10 hours a day in the air some days... plenty of time to ponder over aerofoils and how they work.
Interested to see what you eventually come up with.
Cheers
anton
anton
202 posts
202 posts
13 Jun 2005 6:50pm
quote:
Originally posted by richo


remember chemists have solutions
urine? he he he



If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate!
NSW, 4382 posts
14 Jun 2005 4:10am
quote:
Originally posted by NorthSide

Fair play. Sorry I got a little carried away. Is nice to dig deep into the realms of the grey matter once in a while. I get to spend up to 10 hours a day in the air some days... plenty of time to ponder over aerofoils and how they work.
Interested to see what you eventually come up with.
Cheers



Since you are a pilot Northside, it could be in your interest to study this point you made above, a little more.

"Air has to travel further (therefore faster) over the top of the aerofoil than the bottom to get from the leading edge to the trailing edge at the same time. Now this creates an area of lower pressure on the top of the wing than the bottom."

I couldn't sleep, lots of loose ends to tidy before I jump on a plane in 36hrs and head off for a break.
Now I'm wondering which airline you fly for?

Just kidding
The planes wings don't need you to know why they work eh!

A point to consider though, have you ever seen an airplane that looks like a kite.
Moves through air as slow as a kite?
Is totally dependent on the tension in the kite control lines to maintain flight?
Do aircraft designers invent new airfoils for plane wings evey year?
Do birds care whether they have high aspect or low aspect ratio wings, or are bees bothered that they are not conforming to airfoil physics?

Enjoy, your flying, be it in a plane or hanging off your kite.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

goshen
goshen
VIC
30 posts
VIC, 30 posts
14 Jun 2005 2:53pm
quote:
Clue: Think about a kites movement in a no wind situiation lets say if the kite was flown through the window and no REAL wind was present.


I'm not getting involved in any theoretical arguments, but for those who would prefer a more practical insight to a kite flying in 'no' wind, then check this video we took the other day of a foil flying in less than 2 knots.
www.kitepower.com.au/blogs/news?id=6%2C90%2C0%2C0%2C1%2C0

Please don't accuse me of trying to hijack this thread - just trying to add something practical to the discussion.
bondo
bondo
QLD
699 posts
QLD, 699 posts
14 Jun 2005 3:52pm

anyone care to explain that in binary?
Danger Dave
Danger Dave
WA
61 posts
WA, 61 posts
14 Jun 2005 4:02pm
Excellent rhetoric bondo!

Highlighting my want to find complexity in the relatively simple.

You have made me laugh at myself and for that I thank you!

Dave..
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