NATIONALS - COMPETITOR FEEDBACK-Last Chance

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dachopper
dachopper
WA
1806 posts
WA, 1806 posts
11 Feb 2005 2:23pm
Any competitors out there wanting to make a difference... please post what you thought of the event below , rules, Priority bouy rule, 10 sec no score rule etc .. goods, bads, and hopefully any suggestions to fix any of the problems you list so that the commitee can develop and make the future events even better.
Kitehard
Kitehard
WA
2782 posts
WA, 2782 posts
11 Feb 2005 7:24pm
HI guys and girls,

The nats, on the whole were outstanding with great organisation in a technically very difficult environment. I only have a few suggestions as to what I think may contribute to a smoother flow for next year.

The Priority Bouy is a good idea to allow judges to score more accurately each rider, however, it made the heats too slow to be interesting for onlookers and too frustrating for the rider waiting at the priority bouy for his/her next run.

1. I would propose making the judging square smaller for a start, this would make sure that the time a rider spends in the zone, shorter. The rider waiting at the PB had to allow the rider in the square to completely leave the box before making their run. Most of the run in, was through chop on the outside and riders only tricked in the area from the point to the beach inside which was half the size of the judging square. This meant loads of time waiting for riders to clear the unused section of the box resulting in a slow down of the whole routine.

The 10 Second rule is good but needs to be enforced. The downwind area could be smaller to enable riders who crashed and fell under the 10 second rule to exit downwind and not continue their run. Judges could have had a flag (black) which is waved at the 10 sec mark and the rider should then ride/body drag out of the box in the most direct route so as to clear for the next rider.

These are two simple rules which could be easily implemented and would speed things up. A few more ideas would be to allow the waiting rider at the PB to commence their run once the rider in the zone has changed tacks to head out on their second run. The only problem with this is that judges may have to watch and score two riders at once which then puts more demands on the judges.

A laminated copy of the rules and scoring system should be posted permanently on the white board so as riders could see what moves score and what dont. I know we were responsible for familiarising ourselves with it all before hand and I printed out the sheets and brought them with me but didn't reread them (shows how stupid I can be!). If they were available for easy scrutiny it may have silenced some of the critics of the scoring.

The reason I make these suggestions is that I spent my heats in approximately the following time breakdown:-
2 min performing tricks, 4 minutes working back upwind and 4 minutes waiting at the PB. This could have been time that I would ordinarily use to rack more points through more tricks. It tends to favour a best trick scenario and not the variety of tricks.

With regard to the waves, the priority bouy should only be used to ascertain initial order and from the time on, riders should be allowed to gybe or transition onto any wave as long as they do not encroach on normal surfing right of way rules. The current system can be used, if you are mean enough, as a blocking tactic. I didn't see anyone INTENTIONALLY doing this however it did happen a few times without the rider having priority even being aware they were doing it.


I also think that the rescue craft could have been in the water at the downwind outer mark for the freestyle instead of being on the beach, it would then be much quicker to rescue someone in need of assistance.

Perhaps to save the wave judges from losing their lunch over the side, a scaffold could have been built on the inner reef in front of the wave zone which would have been better for everyone involved.

Apart from these few changes, I think the results were good, the event well managed, food was adequate and this truly was an event for the rider and was undisputably the "best nationals ever".

Congrats again everyone involved and I hope these comments are taken only as suggestions and thought provokers.




Good winds and Peace
dachopper
dachopper
WA
1806 posts
WA, 1806 posts
12 Feb 2005 6:33am
my 2 cents.....
As above with the ten minute heat going slow, and riders basically getting only 2 mins to do their tricks, ontop of this, the ten second rule meant that if you did loose your board or kite, and wasn't riding within ten seconds.. you have even less time to score as the rest of your run doesn't score....this disadvantages the rider who crashed, who now has no tricks on his run scored, and the next rider who has had to wait for him to get out of the box before he can go, as he maybe unsure if he clipped the 10 seconds or not.... causing all the riders to loose time jumping, and making the scoring time incredibly small and very difficult...

the influence that had on the riders, detered most riders from attempting high risk jumps/ tricks, and made them go big, and perform low risk of loosing a board or kite moves due the 10 sec rule, giving them hardly no time to get 5 scoreing moves if they crashed on one run for more than 10 secs.

I feel that we should compromise with having 1 rider scored at a time by having 2 riders allowed in and being scored at all times, the second, after the first has changed tack and is going outbound, leave the jumping area the same size, still only 2 tacks allowed, and if you jump and loose your board.... you can put it back on.... and continue jumping on the tack you were on when the other rider in the zone is clear, so what if you are in the water for 15 secs , vice 10 sec, that means a 10 minut heat that you loose 15 seconds per crash instead of ten , can actually get a score for doing tricks, as there is still another person going through so this won't clog up the run, ... but atleast riders aren't waisting 2 minutes not scoring, kiting out of the zone, upwind, then waiting at the PB, so they can score, if everyone is allowed to continue after they crash, everyone is equally advantaged..... if your the type of guy that doesn't crash and thinks its unfair to score someone after they crashed, , then you'll probably win the heat by landing everything you pull......

I think it will be harder to judge with 2 people, but in the past it used to be 4 people, so its twice as good as what it was then, and abolishing the ten second rule, and allowing people to score when their in the zone, will let people try more radical and spectacular moves without being penalised.
hi fliya
hi fliya
WA
128 posts
WA, 128 posts
12 Feb 2005 8:47am
Great comments KiteHard, I just wanted to add another voice to the PBS system and say that I agree that it makes the comp less spectacular and entertaining to watch. The old style comps of 4 man heats going hard-out with few restrictions definately provided a great spectacle for those on the beach. The riders have the freedom to go hard, take some chances on higher risk moves, feed of each others energy etc. You usually find that the riders fall into some sort of a queue anyway, coming in one by one and heading out to sea to gain upwind ground, before looking for a clear spot to come back in and trick again. I realise this has to be a head-ache for judging though- but this in my view is the only apparent downfall.

My experience at the Nats, after making it through the first heat (placing second) with 3 runs in 10 minutes and riding in 3rd place in the priority system (because the seeded riders had the advantage of going 1st and 2nd)put me through to the second round.

Stoked to have made it through, I entered my heat in 4th place on the starting grid. The 10 minutes start, number 1,2 and 3 go, trick, crash, recover,- by the time I start my heat the 10 minute's is down to about 7 minutes. I did a good solid 1st run- putting points on the board, a trickier 2nd run, and was waiting for the 3rd to try the riskier big scoring moves, when the heat ended!! Damn! I didn't ride badly, but just ran out of time, and probably played it too safe- but look at some of the big names who went for the big moves early, put their kites in the water, exceeded their 10 seconds and got eliminated early on.

From my view, the PBS should be reviewed, its no fun at all as a competitor hanging around a buoy for most of a heat while waiting for your turn at 30 seconds of fame. You will see better kiting if competitors are allowed to keep moving at their own pace.

The pricipals of the PBS are great and should be used, like maybe to start all the competitors from, and get them in some sort of sequence where there is a gap between them, but from then on let them ride free, and have to round the buoy with each run- that keeps them from trying to gain upwind ground in the judging zone. The 10 second rule shouldn't apply- any one riding at the National level should be able to safely trick around a downed kite/rider.

Sorry for whinging- the results were a true reflection of the riders abilities, and the guys who made it to the finals all earned their places and kicked ass. Especially guys like Rich Stenning who fought his way back through the rapid-fire rounds to earn his place in the finals.

The judging sytem was excellent- looking at the score sheet you could see that 'old-school' board-offs and big hooked-in air was going to stand a chance against the wake style un-hooked riding, - look at the final to see how 2 completely different types of riding could be scored objectively- (An awesome show by both Adam and Dan).

great organisation by all, huge efforts by all- Ian, Deano, Gavin and all the many others involved, big thanks,it was great and heaps o fun,

Cheers

Lance
vert
vert
WA
267 posts
WA, 267 posts
12 Feb 2005 9:06am
I was thinking along the same line as Kitehard about having a scafold put on the reef, not only would the judges keep their lunch but they will be a lot higher than in a boat and would have excellent viewing if more than one rider is riding waves at the same time. Also you could have a camera out on the scafold filming and sending the pictures back to a big screen at the club house for people to watch, i know i would have loved to have seen some of the action.I also agree with using the priority for the initial start of the heat and then you can catch waves where ever you like within normal surfing rules.


wayne
waveslave
waveslave
WA
4263 posts
WA, 4263 posts
12 Feb 2005 10:26am
After reading thru all this complex drivel about the contest, no wonder Martin Vari has just signed a new contract with Slingshot having a "no compete" clause in it.

What ever happened to Expression Sessions or is that just too soulfull?
Kitehard
Kitehard
WA
2782 posts
WA, 2782 posts
12 Feb 2005 3:46pm
Hey Waveslave,

There are comps for freeriding like the Gero Blast, Mambo and Tannum Sands comp. The nationals is more structured and need to be more disciplined, therefore we need to have a controlled procession for accurate judging. The PBS is a decent system that just needs a few tweaks to make it truly wicked and with the ability to suit everyone.

Judging is the most thankless job, you get to look into the sun all week, no riding, and get no thanks. This is why the PBS came about because people bitched about the inaccuracy of judges watching 4 riders at a time. This usually required a team of 6 judges with 4 on at a time with 2 standby for breaks. It also required a team of spotters of around the same number, meaning we needed 12 people for the week. We were liucky to get the judges that we did and they did a good job. PBS ensures everyone is judged fairly.

As for soul kiting, I spend every water borne minute apart from the nats "soul kiting". I go to the Nats to catch up with all my friends, enjoy the partying and to represent my sponsors. I don't necessarily go there to ride in front of judges, competing is just a necessary part of the package.

Who cares about what Martin Vari does? If you are a true soul kiter, you probably wont be at any comps anyway as this is against the ideal. If you want to compete in the nats, you need to follow the protocol, if you want to freeride, go to the nats, but don't enter, and freeride adjacent to the comp area.

To Hi Flyer,

I agree with some of your points but the big names went down through ego. They tried to pull their biggest moves in wind they weren't comfortable in, which resulted in them crashing and being knocked out.

An experienced comp rider pulls his biggest/riskiest tricks on the last run after they have laid down a good run or two to build points, not on the first run, this smacks of pride and the outcome was predictable.

The big names actually were in the semis and final, with the exception of Jake Gordon and Stui Martin who were both out with injury. The nats is an overall best rider. To take the #1 position, you have to be able to trick in 10 knots, and also 30 knots, in rough water and smooth water, waves and flat and be smooth in all aspects. The guys who won displayed all of these attributes and were deserved winners.

Also as for the riders should be competent enough to avoid the downed riders, I agree, they should be, however without a preselection series from each state, anyone can go in the nats, there was no formal minimum standard which means a student of mine could theoretically have entered and have the right to get out in the judging zone and have a crack. There really should be a preselection first. This would have been the case had the AKL been able to run the series but alas, another series bit the dust through lack of corporate interest, which was not helped by a lacklustre competition style.

Anyway, it was all a learning curve and I'm sure it will improve for next year.




Good winds and Peace
bonster
bonster
WA
178 posts
WA, 178 posts
13 Feb 2005 9:41am
Well put Kitehard, The judges were working very hard to maintain standards of the competition. It was long days and very low appreciation from competitors and 5 days of no Kiting, when there is heaps of wind. Thanks for that understanding, you sound like a very experince competitor.
From the overall point of view the winners 1st,2nd,3rd diserved that attention. Ripping it up in balistick conditions, with height and degree of difficulty was definately acknowledged and appreciated. It takes more than being able to pull the latest tricks. It took Sailing skills, understanding the rules and regulation and consistancy. Anyone with these attribute were scored and graded accodingly.
Some took risks and busted big moves staight of the buzzer, when landed it scored highly because of the risk factor. if it wasn't succesfull and it was an awsome trick, eg. performed with alot of power and in difficult winds. It was marked as style points to remind us when we total variety and style that this person threw an awsome risky trick in the early stage of the competition.

On the first day the priority bouy was bigger than 100mt x 100mt. This was a test set by the head judge so that powered moves, eg Richies kiteloops, could be scored in the judging zone. We found that this wasn't necessary after the first day and so we reduced the space to a more workable size.

I would like to end with a well done to the WA boys for taking on Australias giants of kiteboarding and showed them how easy it was riding and composing in high winds, also that wakeboarding is done with bindings, wake and a boat and Kiteboarding is done with Wind, rolls/waves, kitecontrol, height and footstraps. With that much wind kiteboarding wakestyle moves should only be done with height. One reason, It scored alot higher. I think that it is so difficult to perform in such event and I very much respect those who can and can do it well. Im a soul kiter, the addrenalin is such a powerfull drug in kiteboarding. I feel that I cant have anymore hits, you guys are insane in my world.
KITE ON!!

bonny
richierich
richierich
NSW
226 posts
NSW, 226 posts
14 Feb 2005 8:59am
Kitehards comments have summed up most of my opinion on the comp. nicely said Daz. I would stress as well the idea of the priority bouy system not working with 4 people in a heat. When we had the gravity games it was head to head from the start. this encouraged higher difficulty moves since both the guys competing were easily going to score 5 moves in the alloted time. The problem with the nats was if you were 3rd or 4th in line you would be lucky to get 5 moves landed let alone your 5 best moves. So the way it was set up people were doing 5 safe jumps just to score for 5 and then if they had time they would try a harder trick. If it was head to head you wouldn't see so many backrolls and raileys you would get everyone trying their hard tricks they had been working on all year instead of going back to what they did at last years nationals.
I much prefer having only to score for 5 tricks so it takes out the 20 filler moves which rack the points up for the guys that can ride back upwind and jump at the same time. Since there was soo much wind available i think having head to head from the start would have been the go, even having them both in the box at the same time wouldn't be a safety or judging issue and it would be better entertainment. If you have a bad draw like myself or Julian at the gravity games (having to go against Aaron Hadlow)then include a repacharge round so you can get eliminated first round and still be in it. The double elimination the whole way through is a bit much. If you are going to run a thousand heats anyway why not do 1 on 1's. just my 2c worth.
Rich

rich
Ryland
Ryland
WA
1222 posts
WA, 1222 posts
14 Feb 2005 12:18pm
no matter how u have it there is always someone who will complain and to date that was the best run best organised nats 2 date so well done to everyone involved no one could of done it better. and if they think they could of they probally would not have put the effort in to organise it anyway so well done gav.
Jess
Jess
WA
206 posts
WA, 206 posts
14 Feb 2005 3:54pm
Agree with most of what has been said regards the PBS being a good system but in need of a few improvements/alterations. I was lucky enough to have 1st priority almost the entire event so got heaps of runs in, I know of others who feel their continual 3rd & 4th priority disadvantaged them. I didn't realise seeded riders got higher priority I just thought it was luck of the draw what your priority was. If the seeded bit is true then it's fair, if it's luck of the draw then it needs to be altered. Definitely a waste of time hanging around the buoy for precious minutes of the heat. The final between Theresa and myself with just the two of us out was ideal regards timing and not wasting time waiting at the buoy. I also found this 2-person heat system worked perfectly at the Gero Blast in November. I understand there are probably too many riders at a Nationals event to be able to do 2 man heats from the start but it certainly works better.

Darren's point about the location of the JZ: moving slightly downwind would have been better to get rid of that choppy section. So at future locations the judges should get out the day before and see for themselves where the best water is and build the JZ around it.

Hope this is taken as constructive criticism, I admire the huge efforts by so many in organising and running this event.

Jess
richierich
richierich
NSW
226 posts
NSW, 226 posts
14 Feb 2005 8:29pm
hey Ryland,
of coarse there are always going to people complaining. Agreed this Nats was the best to date, its just throwing riders ideas around how to make it better- for next time.
But you are right Gav, Waksa, Aksa, geraldton, all the volunteers, Deano, Ian, etc, etc you all know who you are thanks a million for you efforts. it wouldn't have been the best nats to date without all your efforts.
Rich

rich
niall barrett
niall barrett
WA
248 posts
WA, 248 posts
15 Feb 2005 3:07pm
I know your going to say I shouldnt comment on freestyle because I only entered waves, but as a spectator I thought the tension and drama was elevated by the one guy in the box rule for the PBS. I do agree the box was too big and the priority buoy too far out and upwind. We waited for guys to get back upwind and they then had to bear off to enter the flatwater zone along the beach, which was a pointless waste of time.

In the waves the priority buoy was almost certainly pointless at Kitties, as the break itself defined the contest zone. It made sense at Hells because the wave often broke miles downwind and competitors would have been lured away from a judgeable position. If you had a comp at Scarbs for example, a buoy would make a lot of sense in defining the judging area.

The trouble is taht if the venue changes for next year a lot of this years lessons will be lost.
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