SAFETY LEASH?

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dachopper

1802 posts

dachopper

WA, 1802 posts

1 Apr 2006 5:09pm

Now I'm sure people have said stuff about this in the past, but some knowledge needs to be passed on....

Today I watched a dude come acroppa in onshore gusty conditions (10-30kts) and he wasn't wearing a safety leash at all....
Why? because the kite shop in Erina NSW that he brought his crossbow from told him "he didn't need a safety leash"...due to the great depower of the crossbow. Well whoever told him that thanks, as he almost hit about 3 cars including mine and almost injured himself aswell while he flew off the water, straight through the launch area and luckily crashed the kite on the grass over another kiter that was lanching. He didn't have any option either without any safety leash, his kite was fully depowered, and he had no safety line, if he did bail the lines and bar would have landed on one of the cars or on the people that he nearly hit standing in the setup area, then towed what ever it latched onto in the the powerlines downwind about 100 meters....

Shocking !! I'd only expect an experienced rider to decide not to wear any safety leash if they were in 6 meter swell with a jet ski to pick their kite up after they bail... Not a hit on the poor dude either... just advice to not be fooled safety wise by retailers..

poor relative

9106 posts

poor relative

WA, 9106 posts

1 Apr 2006 5:24pm

....hey chop chop...moral of the story, always wear a safety leash.
Dunno why you wouldnt.
If the shop aint gonna give me one for free, after spending 2000 why would you shop there.
?

elizabethb

QLD

2081 posts

elizabethb

QLD, 2081 posts

1 Apr 2006 7:41pm

Common sense should have prevailed, and the man himself should have realised that any kite, no matter what the circumstances, and no matter how many safety aspects the kite itself has, a safety leash is a necessity.

Any reputable kite store, not only includes a safety leash in the kite package (whether included or as a small extra cost), they ensure that they know how to use it, where it should go, and how to operate the quick release on the safety too. However, if the customer states that they already have a leash, they are always questioned what brand, type etc, just to ensure they have a leash and are not being led astray by another.

This kite store needs to be pulled into line, or at least informed that the information given was not accurate, and a safety needs to be purchased for any type/ brand/ bow/ c-shape kite.

Goodwinds, and hope for better safety in the future.

Prepare

132 posts

Prepare

WA, 132 posts

1 Apr 2006 6:23pm

I was told the same thing when I was looking for a kite a few months ago. Actually I was told many things that werent true but luckily I didnt believe the part about not needing a leash.

sounds like the kite shop should have given him a lesson in common sense as well, 10-30kts onshore doesnt sound to inviting to me.

Brighton Kiter Rhys

196 posts

Brighton Kiter Rhys

WA, 196 posts

1 Apr 2006 9:04pm

just wondering... but how many of you guys hook your safetys onto the outer lines so the kite flags if you pull the pin?

EVERY single person ive EVER seen flying a bow kite, has got it onto the chickenloop, or to a little tab on the chickenloop....
cos its a plain pain in the arse to have a non spinning setup....

if the leash is on the chickenloop its no good, all it does is puts a bit of distance between you and the bar/kite....

Ive already had my arse kicked tho so i just hook mine onto the ring on my waroo chickenloop... im also a follower so theres another reason i do it...

doppelganger

VIC

337 posts

doppelganger

VIC, 337 posts

2 Apr 2006 12:24am

"Ditto",purchased a kite package from estabished store just before christmas. Actually went back to the store a week later to buy a leash, was told the same thing ,blah, blah,depower, blah ,blah.Absolutely insane, from the a saftey aspect and also the retail view point I was there to buy it,,money in hand and was talked out of it.

silviu

VIC

663 posts

silviu

VIC, 663 posts

2 Apr 2006 2:42am

My advice: do not kitesurf without a safety leash!!
There are two main reasons for this:
One - you pull the pin, the kite flags and you are safe
Two - the kite is still connected to you, so others are safe too, and as you spent a lot of money on the falmmin' think, you don't loose it

There could be more reasons, but they are the main ones.
The bow kites may depower 95% in the "override mode", however in high winds, the remaining 5% can be a killer

Spacemonkey!

2288 posts

Spacemonkey!

SA, 2288 posts

2 Apr 2006 2:51am

~~http://www.kiteboarding.be/pers_pics_detail.php?id=1755~~

funny pic, sorta related. Prob wouldnt of had the problem if he didnt have a donkey dick. I guess the point is that yu should all wear a leash as weather is unpredictable at times and you never know when u need to dump all your power.

5th line probably does the best in my opinion because not only depowers the kite completely but also allows u to grab the bar again and relaunch with no tangles. I wonder how many could say that with side line systems.

Not wearig a leash is irresponsible and a runaway kite can easily cause bans. That pic shows that even with a leash your kite can fly away but a kite blowing down the beach is extremely dangerous, especially if the public try and grab it or save it somehow. We need to wear a leash not only for safety but also too minimise this happening for others safety.

cliffor123

455 posts

cliffor123

455 posts

2 Apr 2006 12:31am

does anyone here that uses RECON use a saftey leash aswell?
greg

batton_holder

92 posts

batton_holder

WA, 92 posts

2 Apr 2006 4:39am

I fly venoms and they also have amazing depower, but i wouldn't be caught dead not wearing a safety.
The story of the shop not giving the right advice (if true) is down right disgraceful! I hope the kite manufacturers include the safety in their standard bar and lines kit??? it's like buying a car without brakes!
cyu
frank

dachopper

1802 posts

dachopper

WA, 1802 posts

2 Apr 2006 5:00am

well I can now see why people ( some) on bows don't ride with the safety attacthed, cause if you do bail you won't be relaunching, a Possible alternative is to wear 2 safetys, a small one on the chickenloop and a longer one that actually works as a safety on the side line as opposed to a suicide leash. so if you do bail, release the small suicide leash, and then the kite will flag... until the bow developers come up with something that works as a safety without hindering relaunch.

I ride with two safetys' only because my brand new clips have always managed to come undone , at the shackle end and at the scissor clip end about 4 times, and its' usually an epic 1-2 hours for me to setup another kite and chase down my now offshore mess.... i put them both on my fifth line aswell so every time i bail or screw a pass, the kite inverts and hits the water depowered ( also good for the kite lasting longer)

and Greg you need to ask yourself... when it goes from 20 - 30 kts on shore, do you want to be activating recon mid air, with the kite blowing you on shore in 30 gusty kts and do you think it will depower you safely? i know with my kite i'd feel safe any time engageing the 5th line.

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

2 Apr 2006 8:24am

quote:
Originally posted by dachopper

Now I'm sure people have said stuff about this in the past, but some knowledge needs to be passed on....

Today I watched a dude come acroppa in onshore gusty conditions (10-30kts) and he wasn't wearing a safety leash at all....
Why? because the kite shop in Erina NSW that he brought his crossbow from told him "he didn't need a safety leash"...due to the great depower of the crossbow. Well whoever told him that thanks, as he almost hit about 3 cars including mine and almost injured himself aswell while he flew off the water, straight through the launch area and luckily crashed the kite on the grass over another kiter that was lanching. He didn't have any option either without any safety leash, his kite was fully depowered, and he had no safety line, if he did bail the lines and bar would have landed on one of the cars or on the people that he nearly hit standing in the setup area, then towed what ever it latched onto in the the powerlines downwind about 100 meters....

Shocking !! I'd only expect an experienced rider to decide not to wear any safety leash if they were in 6 meter swell with a jet ski to pick their kite up after they bail... Not a hit on the poor dude either... just advice to not be fooled safety wise by retailers..

All bow kites should come with a leash, all the Cab bows we sell come with a leash, and we show people how to use them.

Which spot did this happen at? The wind was dangerous yesterday especially around midday when it gusted up to a bit over 30 knots, later in the afternoon is was better but still gusty. Somedays its better to not go out but going out in gusty, squally conditions directly onshore is asking a lot of any leash!!!!!!!

Sounds like this guy was launched from the water while still hanging on to the bar - thereby generating power in the kite, once he let go of the bar the sh1t stopped happening, so that is a good outcome thanks to the depower of a bow.

But its crap that he was sold the kite without a leash or told tha he does not need one. See my post in the other bow leash thread about how to use them on Cab, Liquid Force, naish etc.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

stnkygoat

NSW

230 posts

stnkygoat

NSW, 230 posts

2 Apr 2006 8:56am

It seems dangerous to ride without a leash - I spent a bit of time on a Sonic recently and nothing about it recommended taking the leash off to me. I guess my other observation might be that if someone tries to sell you a kite with no leash then they might be profiteering! I mean, why sell just one kite when you can sell two - the original and then another one to replace the first one that went clean through a combine harvester/aircraft turbine/out to sea/under a truck...

It's kind of like those parents who love their kids soooo much they buy them a brand new fully chipped WRX for passing their L plates..

elizabethb

QLD

2081 posts

elizabethb

QLD, 2081 posts

2 Apr 2006 9:14am

quote:
Originally posted by cliffor123

does anyone here that uses RECON use a saftey leash aswell?
greg

Definately. My 10m is a Cab Ele with Recon Gen 2, and I always use a safety on it, because you can nevee be too cautious with safety, and just in case you need a better quick release etc. Every kiter should have a safety leash, no matter what type of kite they own.
Goodwinds

CarlBevo

NSW

609 posts

CarlBevo

NSW, 609 posts

2 Apr 2006 9:21am

The biggest danger I have seen with bows is a 2-4 line tangle when you are self launching. Could happen to any kite C or Bow but a 5th line or a re-ride gives you a saftey option in this circumstance.

In this case one measly strand of seagrass created a birds nest in his lines as they tensioned up, My mate although a good kiter (natural ability)does not have water time to recognise - react fore-see a situation. Luckily it wasnt windy he still got a drag but was able to resist the kite when it crashed and looked back at me with a WTF should I do Look until I secured it.

IMO Bows need an OH Sh1t handle

dachopper

1802 posts

dachopper

WA, 1802 posts

2 Apr 2006 7:39am

elizabeth do you work for kite power "goodwinds" hehe Just joking.... the dude was riding with his kite about 1230 to 1 oclock with the lines fully out (12 meter)and was still kiting / getting pulled into the shore by the kite ie; the gust was to strong for the 12 meter bow before he even left the water, he then slowly steered the kite to 12 to miss the cars and people to the right where he was heading, then sort of got lofted a meter or so high / kicked his board off to miss the cars and in doing so, then continued to steer the kite left and basically stayed at a meter high and got flung downwind while the kite arced the sky turning left more until it crashed and so did he...

elizabethb

QLD

2081 posts

elizabethb

QLD, 2081 posts

2 Apr 2006 9:55am

quote:
Originally posted by dachopper

elizabeth do you work for kite power "goodwinds" hehe Just joking....

Dachopper.... Nice spotting

I don't work for KP, I guess I just got used to wishing for more wind, and Steve has the best way of saying it, and great winds onto others too

Brisbane kiter here, so it definately isn't KP lol.

Goodwinds

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

2 Apr 2006 9:56am

quote:
Originally posted by dachopper

elizabeth do you work for kite power "goodwinds" hehe Just joking.... the dude was riding with his kite about 1230 to 1 oclock with the lines fully out (12 meter)and was still kiting / getting pulled into the shore by the kite ie; the gust was to strong for the 12 meter bow before he even left the water, he then slowly steered the kite to 12 to miss the cars and people to the right where he was heading, then sort of got lofted a meter or so high / kicked his board off to miss the cars and in doing so, then continued to steer the kite left and basically stayed at a meter high and got flung downwind while the kite arced the sky turning left more until it crashed and so did he...

Thanks for that description Dachopper, now the real story is starting to emerge.
If his hands were on the bar the kite was not fully depowered, the extra few inches the bar would have moved to loosen the rears more makes ALL the difference.

You don't fly Bows do you Dachopper?

Obviously this person who had the near miss was also inexperienced, his first instinct should have been to let go of the bar, that way he would have been in the water and the kite would have crashed near the edge of the window to his left or right with less than 5% power avoiding the potentially lethal situation that ensued because he held on.

Holding on seems to be instinctive we all do it, we all hesitate to fire the leash but most times we survive.

Where did the incident occur?

Cya and

Very Good Winds to you and everyone

Steve McCormack

dachopper

1802 posts

dachopper

WA, 1802 posts

2 Apr 2006 10:48am

so how do you fly a bow depowered if you can't reach the bar? Ive had a sesh on the bows.anything he did wasn't gonna be pretty, if he let the kite fly to the left of the window it would have struck trees and been destroyed, if he had flown right he would have hit the cars and people with the lines.
the answer wasn't " depowering " which may or may not have stopped the lofting, it was the fact that there was no safety available to dump the kite onto 1 line.

silviu

VIC

663 posts

silviu

VIC, 663 posts

2 Apr 2006 1:14pm

You don't fly it!! It is depowered.
If you want to re-power it you just pull the centre line untill you reach the bar and off it goes.
But still YOU HAVE TO HAVE A SAFETY LEASH
I know, I am screaming!!!!

Danger Dave

61 posts

Danger Dave

WA, 61 posts

2 Apr 2006 2:21pm

Well I don't see how a safety leash would have been more help than simply letting go of the bar.

Can someone explain why a kite depowered on a sliding leash is less likely to end up in trees or on cars than one depowered bow style? I thought leashes were to keep you from getting dragged not from damaging the kite!

Let's be honest the mistake he made was an incorrect site assesment. There is a point in every situation where it becomes too late too save face by pulling the release or depowering. I think this guy way well past the point of no return.

But yeah I agree with everyone who has said that all bow style kites should come with a leash that can flag the kite. Whether people attatch it to the frontlines and hence disable the spinning ability is another matter. Most people i see attatch it to the tea cup handle on their Cabrinha loop or on their chicken line itself.

If Cabrinha's real intention is to make this kite the safest on the market they need to develope a spinning system that incorporates a sliding leash. I have some ideas but they will cost you cabrinha!

To be honest I don't know WTF Slingy and Cab were thinking when they produced a kite without a flagging leash standard! Haven't they ever tried a self rescue!

Just another example of products untested and brands uninterested. Although props to slingshot for fixing their **** ASAP! Good show!

Dave.

silviu

VIC

663 posts

silviu

VIC, 663 posts

2 Apr 2006 4:31pm

Dave,

Finally someone hitting the point

The leash should be there for the cases in which the remaining 5% power is still too much to land safelly the kite (it happened to me few weeks ago in a pretty large gust - around 35k and I was on my 16 C-bow; without the leash I could not land safely the kite even with help).
A spinning leash will be handy, however as I pointed earlier it is possible to use one already on the market with minimal or no modifications.
Regarding the suggestion to Cabrinhas' "preciuous team" forget it!
They are not listening to us, the users, they know everithing better than us, they will tell us what we want, didn't you know

What a shame

silviu

VIC

663 posts

silviu

VIC, 663 posts

2 Apr 2006 6:11pm

I may have to get a little bit more in detail regarding my previous post.
Look, we have to get down to earth, even though we like so much flying!
The reality is that it does not matter which make and what technology we are using, safety is the last concern of the manufacturers. What is driving them?
The bottom line.
If they can squeeze another cent, they’ll do it, and they will “hide” always behind the “disclaimer” and/or “caution” label stitched on our kites: I’ve told you kiting is dangerous!
Safety should be our concern, if we feel something is “fishy” with the equipment, don’t buy it, tell everybody and start boycotting the brand.
But we have to be united.
If you feel that you need a safety device, stand on it, request it and don’t let anybody walk you out of it. At the end of the day is your health, your family needs you, and as I said before: kitesurfing is as extreme as we are making it!
On the same line, there are Kitesurfing Stores taking safety very seriously, (KitePower, SHQ, RPS are the ones I know, I am sure there are much more out there) but again ultimately the safety stay with us, the users of the equipment, and the only way we can improve on it is to make sure our message is received and listened too.

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

2 Apr 2006 6:35pm

quote:
Originally posted by dachopper

so how do you fly a bow depowered if you can't reach the bar? Ive had a sesh on the bows.anything he did wasn't gonna be pretty, if he let the kite fly to the left of the window it would have struck trees and been destroyed, if he had flown right he would have hit the cars and people with the lines.
the answer wasn't " depowering " which may or may not have stopped the lofting, it was the fact that there was no safety available to dump the kite onto 1 line.

For the 3rd time, where did this incident occur?
Why is there no-one else to report on what went on?
Why was this person kiting in a place where within one line length there were trees to eat the kite and the other direction people and cars?
What would have happened if he let go of the bar is the lofting would have stopped, but sh1t would have still happened to the kite even if he had a flagging leash.
If he went to a flagging leash he has not control over where the kite would have landed either would he?
Sounds like a really suss place to kiting too! A place where 50 leashes would not help mate!

Which brand of kites do you fly F-one isn't it?
And where did it happen again?

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

BLOWN AWAY

156 posts

BLOWN AWAY

156 posts

2 Apr 2006 5:59pm

Ok beginners need to access the conditions to see if it's safe to head out or not. now kitesurfing is an extreme sport... **** is gonna happen. We are ALL gonna die. It's just what card we give the Grim Repa... do we do it on our terms or his? Go kitesurfing and you at least enjoy the moment the sickle of the hooded one harvests your soul.

If it's 10-30 knots (no biggie over here... we get that stuff all the time) then put a smaller kite up. Bow kites are differnet to c kites. Beginners will allways need a proper leash. and by the way the depower on the waroo is 100%... well it's just as much as a kite pulled flat anyway.... you muff a handlepass and both kites still give a tug as you head to the leash.

But with bows you can get way with no leash at all if you are allways hooked in. The leash is only there for unhooked moves.

dachopper

1802 posts

dachopper

WA, 1802 posts

3 Apr 2006 4:51am

this could be stating the obvious, every single bow kite I've seen in windy conditions, when the bar is let go and the kite is aiming abit off the wind, will scream down the side of the window and smack the water, with not much power, BUT if you stand under the kite when it hits the ground you will get hurt esp a 12 meter in 30 kts..... you said it "it stops flying" i doesn't sit still depowered in mid air... it goes either left into the trees, or right and cleans up people , and cars. IF he had had a safety leash on the safety point on the kite, he could have release it and it would have flagged downwind, where there was no-one.

Sounds like no-one uses this safety feature who rides bows anyway so there's probably not much more point me advising newby's to do it cause having a non spinning leash setup after all these years of R&D is pretty poor!

Kitepower Australia

NSW

4382 posts

Kitepower Australia

NSW, 4382 posts

3 Apr 2006 8:18am

quote:
Originally posted by dachopper

this could be stating the obvious, every single bow kite I've seen in windy conditions, when the bar is let go and the kite is aiming abit off the wind, will scream down the side of the window and smack the water, with not much power, BUT if you stand under the kite when it hits the ground you will get hurt esp a 12 meter in 30 kts..... you said it "it stops flying" i doesn't sit still depowered in mid air... it goes either left into the trees, or right and cleans up people , and cars. IF he had had a safety leash on the safety point on the kite, he could have release it and it would have flagged downwind, where there was no-one.

Sounds like no-one uses this safety feature who rides bows anyway so there's probably not much more point me advising newby's to do it cause having a non spinning leash setup after all these years of R&D is pretty poor!

Where was the incident you reported at the start of the thread?

If you pull the pin on a kite leashed to one line there is no guarantee it will land directly down wind, and it can still hit the ground with a fair degree of force too. It will still have some residual drag and it can take off and loop in the air until it is secured.

5th line leashed kites will almost always end up straight downwind, with some residual drag but will generally stay put on the ground if the bar stopper is set properly, if not you will have a large single line kite hovering in the air.

Bow kites do not "scream down the side of the window", they just fall out of the sky like a kite leashed to one line, but they will end up on the side of the window, ready to relaunch if you want. If you do not want to relaunch and are wearing a leash, then it is very easy to clip the leash to the flagging ring and flag the kite/self land safely.

If you are kiting in a spot that is less than a line length wide before there are obstacles and hazards, in squally onshore winds, is that the kite brand or models fault?

The real issue in this incident has nothing to do with bow kites, or leashes does it?

Why won't you tell us where this incident happened?

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack

windslave

QLD

151 posts

windslave

QLD, 151 posts

3 Apr 2006 10:47am

I agree that a leash should be used on all bow kites however if the guy who got himself into trouble did not have the reflexes to even take his hands of the bar and let the override system work there is no way he would have been able to activate his saftey to use his leash.

Let go of the bar and all will be allright.

Luke.

Ian Grose

TAS

423 posts

Ian Grose

TAS, 423 posts

3 Apr 2006 12:32pm

Check out the Halo.

It comes with an easy to use and safe leash, which can either be used with a wrist leach or a spinning leash that attaches to your spreader bar.

One of the main reasons in using a leash is to protect other water users. All kites should be flown with a proper leash so we don't have issues when kites get blown through swimmers etc.

The Airush spinning leash is also available to fit to other brand kites for $40.

Check it out on :- standuppaddlesports.com.au/

All Airush retailers should have them in stock, Airborne Kitesurfing definately have them in stock.

Thanks,

Ian Grose

dachopper

1802 posts

dachopper

WA, 1802 posts

3 Apr 2006 2:45pm

there's no point me naming names and places.. the moral is that retailers should be encourageing beginners to be as safe as possible regardless of their own opinions..., and beginners should never get confused between depower and safety.. having depower adds safety, but depower should never be used as the sole emergency , and you won't realise this until you have your first near death experience..
then you will begin to appreciate some of the good safety systems on the different brands out there.

silviu

VIC

663 posts

silviu

VIC, 663 posts

3 Apr 2006 6:05pm

quote:
Originally posted by dachopper

there's no point me naming names and places.. the moral is that retailers should be encourageing beginners to be as safe as possible regardless of their own opinions..., and beginners should never get confused between depower and safety.. having depower adds safety, but depower should never be used as the sole emergency , and you won't realise this until you have your first near death experience..
then you will begin to appreciate some of the good safety systems on the different brands out there.

Hey dachopper.
I still didn't work it out: Do you use a safety leash or any safety system at all?
I am just curious, who's preaching.

Please Register, or first...

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SAFETY LEASH?

dachopper

poor relative

elizabethb

Prepare

Brighton Kiter Rhys

doppelganger

silviu

Spacemonkey!

cliffor123

batton_holder

dachopper

Kitepower Australia

stnkygoat

elizabethb

CarlBevo

dachopper

elizabethb

Kitepower Australia

dachopper

silviu

Danger Dave

silviu

silviu

Kitepower Australia

BLOWN AWAY

dachopper

Kitepower Australia

windslave

Ian Grose

dachopper

silviu

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