What causes wind?

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menox
menox
NSW
152 posts
NSW, 152 posts
11 Apr 2008 1:55pm
Hey guys, Just interested in what causes wind, and why it blows in different directions? Is it to do with heat? I know i could prolly read pages and pages of scientific jumbo, but id just like to know. Cheers!
walshd
walshd
SA
601 posts
SA, 601 posts
11 Apr 2008 1:29pm
Baked beans or a night on the piss usually does it for me.

Wind direction is usually down south tho
harry potter
harry potter
VIC
2777 posts
VIC, 2777 posts
11 Apr 2008 1:59pm
I hear Baked beans are pretty good at causing wind
JAKE123
JAKE123
QLD
314 posts
QLD, 314 posts
11 Apr 2008 2:19pm
ok, wind is air moving from high pressure to low.
warmer air = low pressure, colder air = high pressure

seabreeze = sun heats land faster than the water because water has a high heat capacity. this causes a reigion of low pressure to form over the land and a higher pressure over the ocean. and then the air over the ocean moves to equal the pressure. this movement = wind.

off shore = mainly in winter and or early morning, here in qld, the ocean stays relativley warm during the winter because it retains its heat, but he land cools quickly and this means that theres a higher pressure over the land than the water and there is airflow to equal the pressure.

air in the southern hemisphere flows clockwise into a low and anti clockwise out of a high might be the other way round not sure. so if u see a big low on a chart u can roughly see which way the wnd and usually swell will travel.

on a synoptic chart the big rings are isobars they indicate a pressure gradient, and surround highs, lows.... ect.

not very scientiffically correct and i missed a few details but i think u get the picture.


GreenPat
GreenPat
QLD
4107 posts
QLD, 4107 posts
11 Apr 2008 2:20pm
I find a toasted cheese sandwich filled with jalepenos, chillies and anchovies works rather well. Large quantites of beer can also cause wind the next day.

There is a pretty reasonable (simple) explanation of the other type of wind here: www.seabreeze.com.au/info/wind.asp

I disagree with the way the arrows are drawn on the third picture though, with a high pressure cell the wind tends to radiate outwards just a bit, as well as circling around the centre, and a low tends to suck in slightly. I've drawn green arrows on it the way I understand it to work.



The closer the isobars are together the stronger the wind.
GlenMorangie
GlenMorangie
WA
88 posts
WA, 88 posts
11 Apr 2008 12:39pm
Slightly, ever so slightly. More over water and less over land.
sunseeker
sunseeker
QLD
1203 posts
QLD, 1203 posts
11 Apr 2008 2:54pm
The reason why the wind doesn't flow directly from the high to the low pressure but rather follows the isobars is due to coriolis force caused by the spinning of the earth. The wind goes in the opposite directions around high and low pressures in the northern hemisphere. There is also circulation between lower air flow and upper air flow like the jet streams.
JB
JB
NSW
2232 posts
JB JB
NSW, 2232 posts
11 Apr 2008 2:56pm
to my understanding, it goes something like this.

High pressure, it hot air. hot air expands, making more volume in a given space, making the barametric pressure higher.

Low pressure, it cold air. Cold air contracts, making a lower volume in a given space, making the barametric pressure lower.

It is much easier to rapidly cool air than to heat it, which is why cold fronts mve much faster that seabreezes, and are generally more powerful.

Seabreezes are caused by hot air rising over the land as it heats up, then is sucked out to sea as it is cooled by the ocean. As it cools it lowers back down and is then drawn in by the void left by the rising air from the land, causing a seabreeze. This is a timely process, and it takes a decent amount of temperature difference between land and ocean to make it work.

high pressure always rotates in one direction, and colds the other.

cold fronts are from when god is angry!
JB
Dawn Patrol
Dawn Patrol
WA
1991 posts
WA, 1991 posts
11 Apr 2008 5:25pm
Wait until laurie reads this.
Then you will know.
GreenPat
GreenPat
QLD
4107 posts
QLD, 4107 posts
11 Apr 2008 8:10pm
I'm pretty sure he wrote what's in the link I posted. I hope he doesn't mind me disagreeing with him and take away my powers.
Dawn Patrol
Dawn Patrol
WA
1991 posts
WA, 1991 posts
11 Apr 2008 6:10pm
Sorry , missed the link
Biagro
Biagro
WA
178 posts
WA, 178 posts
11 Apr 2008 11:30pm
JAKE123 said...

ok, wind is air moving from high pressure to low.
warmer air = low pressure, colder air = high pressure

seabreeze = sun heats land faster than the water because water has a high heat capacity. this causes a reigion of low pressure to form over the land and a higher pressure over the ocean. and then the air over the ocean moves to equal the pressure. this movement = wind.

off shore = mainly in winter and or early morning, here in qld, the ocean stays relativley warm during the winter because it retains its heat, but he land cools quickly and this means that theres a higher pressure over the land than the water and there is airflow to equal the pressure.

air in the southern hemisphere flows clockwise into a low and anti clockwise out of a high might be the other way round not sure. so if u see a big low on a chart u can roughly see which way the wnd and usually swell will travel.

on a synoptic chart the big rings are isobars they indicate a pressure gradient, and surround highs, lows.... ect.

not very scientiffically correct and i missed a few details but i think u get the picture.





Nice mate very well explained, i could even understand that it's amazing how it all works though!
hawaii
hawaii
VIC
130 posts
VIC, 130 posts
12 Apr 2008 10:09am
Jb are u joking?
cold = dense = high pressure
warm = less dense = low pressure!
laurie
laurie
QLD
3902 posts
QLD, 3902 posts
12 Apr 2008 12:41pm
GreenPat said...

I'm pretty sure he wrote what's in the link I posted. I hope he doesn't mind me disagreeing with him and take away my powers.


Yes, no, no. My version of the arrows along the isobars was to keep it simple .. didn't want to involve our mate Mr Coriolis
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect

I know this topic was about keeping it simple .. but ... the formation of High cells is really interesting and are created by things called "Hadley Cells"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadley_cell which is a circulation caused by air rising at the equator and coming down around our latitudes .. also check "Ferrel Cells"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrel_cell if you're keen!



Enjoy!
Knickers
Knickers
WA
257 posts
WA, 257 posts
12 Apr 2008 11:33am
Well now I am confused !
Maybe I need to think in terms of 2 types of wind generating systems-
1.Barometric: High (air flowing out and in anticlockwise rotation in southern hemisphere) and Low (air in, and clockwise) pressure cells, with the Hadley and Feral oops Ferrel cells and Coriolis effects thrown in. This has nothing to do with the ground air temperature really
2. Thermal: caused by air temperature differentials over water and land eg. the seabreeze as described above. However, I still dont quite understand why we (in my experience anyway!) dont get a seabreeze in Perth when it's an ultra hot summer day...

Am I on the right track?

It seems to me these 2 factors can act independantly of each other, but also interact, and thus why I, even as a moderately intelligent person, cant figure out the wind from charts and have to rely on bureau and seabreeze.com.au forcasts, which are both variably accurate anyway
Biagro
Biagro
WA
178 posts
WA, 178 posts
12 Apr 2008 3:32pm
the way i thought was the sun warms the Earth's surface, the atmosphere warms too. Some parts of the Earth receive direct rays from the sun all year and are always warm. Other places receive indirect rays, so the climate is colder. Warm air, which weighs less than cold air, rises. Then cool air moves in and replaces the rising warm air. This movement of air is what makes the wind blow. probably wrong but it's easy 4 me makes it blow its good enough for me
BLOWN AWAY
BLOWN AWAY
156 posts
156 posts
12 Apr 2008 4:28pm
A tossup between Kebabs and Baked Beans... Beans it was... battern down da hatches

Iceing on the cake really cos i even scored some weather generated wind too.. so yeah best of both worlds today
colinwill78
colinwill78
VIC
1395 posts
VIC, 1395 posts
12 Apr 2008 10:54pm
i knew i shouldn't have read this topic
GreenPat
GreenPat
QLD
4107 posts
QLD, 4107 posts
13 Apr 2008 1:01pm
Knickers said...

Well now I am confused !
Maybe I need to think in terms of 2 types of wind generating systems-
1.Barometric: High (air flowing out and in anticlockwise rotation in southern hemisphere) and Low (air in, and clockwise) pressure cells, with the Hadley and Feral oops Ferrel cells and Coriolis effects thrown in. This has nothing to do with the ground air temperature really
2. Thermal: caused by air temperature differentials over water and land eg. the seabreeze as described above. However, I still dont quite understand why we (in my experience anyway!) dont get a seabreeze in Perth when it's an ultra hot summer day...

Am I on the right track?

It seems to me these 2 factors can act independantly of each other, but also interact, and thus why I, even as a moderately intelligent person, cant figure out the wind from charts and have to rely on bureau and seabreeze.com.au forcasts, which are both variably accurate anyway


That's the way it works in my head Knickers, anything outside of that has a pretty minimal influence. If there is anything at all outside of that, it could be that that's it, 100%. You include the Coriolis effect in point 1 though, which is influenced by ground temperatures, and really when you get into it all atmospheric circulation is intrinsically linked to ground air temperatures.

As for the interaction, this is how I visualise that it works. The green arrow is the barometric, the orange arrow is the thermal and the red arrow is the vector addition of the two. Yay for Perth!



When we get an ultra hot summer's day the air over the water heats up significantly too and the difference in temperatures is not as much as a normal day, hence cancelling the seabreeze out. In my experience this starts happening when it gets over about 35 degrees, most noticable around 40 degrees and above.
Trouble
Trouble
NSW
193 posts
NSW, 193 posts
13 Apr 2008 2:15pm
I had an arguement with my 7 yo daughter who insisted that the trees made the wind. However i really find that food makes wind! different food = different wind
JB
JB
NSW
2232 posts
JB JB
NSW, 2232 posts
13 Apr 2008 9:24pm
This is some good reading, makes a lot of sense. Great motion diagrames that explain the difference between high and low pressures really well.

www.bom.gov.au/lam/Students_Teachers/pressure.shtml

Notice how the sinking air spirals outward in an anticlockwise direction, in the high pressure region (only in the southern hemisphere).

In the low pressure region the rising air spirals inward, in a clockwise direction (only in the southern hemisphere).



This animation shows how a small part of the air may flow across the isobars from high to low pressure.


This animation shows how air can come from other nearby pressure systems or go to other nearby pressure systems.


Definitions...

High pressure systems
The air associated with a high pressure system sinks down from above and warms as it does so and is very stable.

A high pressure system (anticyclone), is a system of closed isobars surrounding a region of relatively high pressure. When compared with low pressure systems, highs tend to cover a greater area, move more slowly and have a longer life.

When the high pressure system is located over land the weather will be typically dry and free of cloud.

Where the isobars are elongated around a high pressure system (see Figure 1) they are referred to as a ridge.


Low pressure systems
A low pressure system (cyclone) develops where relatively warm air ascends from the Earth's surface. These are systems of closed isobars surrounding a region of relatively low pressure.

As the rising air cools, clouds will begin to form. The instability of the air will produce quite large vertical development of cumuliform clouds with associated rain showers (such as cumulonimbus cloud).

An elongated extension of isobars away from a low pressure centre is known as a trough of low pressure. This trough usually contains one or more cold fronts.


Cold fronts
A cold front is the delineation between cold polar air moving towards the equator and undercutting warm tropical air moving poleward. The temperature differences across a cold front can be extreme and associated with strong winds. The warm tropical air is forced to rise and become unstable with the development of large cumuliform clouds. Severe weather such as thunderstorms, squall lines and severe turbulence may accompany these cold fronts.

On a weather chart, a cold front is represented as a line with barbs pointing in the direction of movement of the front, from cold to warmer air (see Figure 1).


Parcels of air
A parcel of air is, in essence, nothing more than a sample of air. Generally it is assumed to be small enough to be homogenous (the same all the way through). So that pressure, temperature and humidity are the same throughout it, but large enough to contain at least several thousand molecules so that these parameters are meaningful.

It is useful to visualise a blob of air. We assume that the parcel has the same pressure as its environment but also that it doesn't mix with its environment. - in other words we put it in a plastic bag that is rather too large for it.

An adiabatic process is one in which no heat is removed from, or added to, the parcel. Think of the plastic bag as being thoroughly insulated.

When a dry air parcel is lifted adiabatically, its pressure falls, and so it expands. This expansion takes place against the inwards pressure of the surrounding environmental air on the parcel.

The parcel expends energy in "pushing" the environment back.

The only source of energy available to the parcel is its temperature and so this must fall. Similarly, parcels which are forced to descend become warmer.



JB
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