I'm not sure if most riders are aware but when kite companies develop a new kite they have multiple attachment points for the bridle along the leading edge and get test riders to give feedback on what they did and didn't like and the designers remove all ,or most of the different attachment options and go with what they think is right .I have been fortunate enough to be able to fly one of these kites and try out the different configs .I was amazed at how different a kite can perform in different conditions,styles of riding boards and so on (even after a year of flying the kite and trying some new configs in the new conditions i experienced ) so I pleaded the case for retaining most of these proto attachment points .

I understand the argument that by retaining them the kites LE looks ugly and the different attachments can confuse riders but from my own experience having the different options is great (as long as an explaination accompanies) Surely this can't be too hard .

one of the things that i like about this is that I have found that by reading reviews and trying kites for myself and also watching vids I can see how the bridle config on one particular kite gives it its particular flying characteristics and then try it on the kite that I have that has the multiple attachment points by attaching the bridle to different points .I know some of you might think that what I am into as a loungechair designer is quite nerdy but I reckon that kite companies should consider keeping the multiple LE attachments as a good idea (again it is important to have an accompanying explaination of what to expect with different configs ) and give riders the opportunity to customise their kite more and set it up for conditions on the day or their weight or style or even to suit the board that they are riding .

Maybe kite companies could supply retailers with a one off kite each season for its customers to try. i would love to try a kite with more attchment points up and down the leading edge to see what suits me.

There are some kites like the Wainman that have adjustable points on the bridle, most people don't understand them enough to use them. With the wainman kites there was some confusion when they came out to the best settings. So im not 100% convinced that they would be a good idea, a custom option maybe made to order but there would be a considerable extra cost.

Mr float said...

I'm not sure if most riders are aware but when kite companies develop a new kite they have multiple attachment points for the bridle along the leading edge and get test riders to give feedback on what they did and didn't like and the designers remove all ,or most of the different attachment options and go with what they think is right .I have been fortunate enough to be able to fly one of these kites and try out the different configs .I was amazed at how different a kite can perform in different conditions,styles of riding boards and so on (even after a year of flying the kite and trying some new configs in the new conditions i experienced ) so I pleaded the case for retaining most of these proto attachment points .

I understand the argument that by retaining them the kites LE looks ugly and the different attachments can confuse riders but from my own experience having the different options is great (as long as an explaination accompanies) Surely this can't be too hard .

one of the things that i like about this is that I have found that by reading reviews and trying kites for myself and also watching vids I can see how the bridle config on one particular kite gives it its particular flying characteristics and then try it on the kite that I have that has the multiple attachment points by attaching the bridle to different points .I know some of you might think that what I am into as a loungechair designer is quite nerdy but I reckon that kite companies should consider keeping the multiple LE attachments as a good idea (again it is important to have an accompanying explaination of what to expect with different configs ) and give riders the opportunity to customise their kite more and set it up for conditions on the day or their weight or style or even to suit the board that they are riding .

Good idea in my opinion the 2010 argo was great with all the line attachment options ,my team riders all have their kites set different ways to suit ther weight bar feel etc ,kites are marked with the factory default setting so no probs putting the kite back to standard,also glad chris has done the same for 2011,in light winds a kite reacts differently than in strong winds so if you can soften the kite up in strong winds by adjusting the bridal there's less need to use too much depower thus better preformance,and visa versa moving the mid bridal back in light wind gives way more punch,allows for a far more versatile kite.

AKSonline said...

Hey Floaty,

The Airush Vapor I came out with infinitely variable tuning and it was a disaster in 98% of cases with people making guesses as to where and how it should be rigged. I saw one or two correctly trimmed (in a whole season) and all the rest were horrid with some ridiculous canopy shapes as a result of people not knowing what they are doing.

Multiple attach points adds weight, creates weak points, creates confusion and like slave says, leaves just one more thing to tangle a bridle or line around. Often a mere movement of a bridle attachment point is not enough, better results will probably also require a lengthening or shortening of the bridle itself which then starts to take it out of the hands of even the more advanced fliers.

Back in the days of thr Airush Halo 2, I spent a few hours moving attach points and then started to shorten and lengthen bridle line lengths and I can tell you I achieved a much better flying kite than was standard after a few hours of tinkering. Much of it was trial and error guided by thoughts on how it should react. Some changes also rendered the kite bordering on dangerously unflyable

Ozone kites sell really well because their bridles are simple and offer nothing other than the most basic change of rear pigtail position on the tips. They fly perfectly right out of the bag in both settings and thus a consistent experience is achieved for every rider as per the parameters and goals of the designer.

If the 1 or 2% of advanced skill riders who like to tinker with settings want extra pigtail options, they can easily ask a reputable kite repairer to add a few extra attach points. It's not that hard and wont break the bank if you do choose that option.

The negetives by far outweigh the positives.

Keep It Simple, Stupid (KISS)

DM

I suppose it comes down to how well you design the kite and the bridal system,on the argo it would be impossible to snag a bridal attachment point,also the design of the bridal is obviously way more advanced than what you played with in the past ,the 3 pulley system always self adjusts to find the sweet spot on whatever settings you select,so no bad flying or deforming,i spent a couple of days testing all the different combinations on the 2010 argo and all flew well but there were some i preferred that suited my riding style,personally i would rather have the option if it was available than not and its probably the way forward for the future.

another bridal innovation from griffin is the Chimera one we have been testing with the single pulley / no pully bridal option,this also works and will suit a lot of riders in differing wind conditions and riding styles,it changes the kite totally from more of a c/hybrid to a bow depending on how you set it up,you can make the swap in under a minute so no downtime ,in my opinion another awesome move forward for the sport.

Gorgo said...

I prefer no additional attachment points. It's aesthetically cleaner and less stuff to catch dirt and damage and stuff.

Adding extra attachment points with all the associated reinforcement just adds complexity and cost and confusion for the customers.

The kites I have that have had multiple points I have set them how I like them and never changed them. I would prefer the designers and testers did that for me. The only caveat is the testers in particular have to be very good at testing for the market.

I did have surf specific kites in the past and they were good overall. I now ride all Crossbows and they work fine in the surf in the odd times I get down there. If I was a dedicated wave kiter I would get a wave dedicated kite.

Seems a bit of a strange attitude to have,with most other sports and equipment there is an opp to upgrade the equipment you have to suit yourself by the use of aftermarket bits or upgrades,however with kitesurfing its a case of this is what you get so buy it and lump it and we will upgrade next season,why not have the ability to modify and upgrade the flying charicteristics of the kite out of the box,to suit your riding style or to convert a kite towards a fixed c/hybrid style or bow style,seems like sense to me.

I think there is a definite niche in the market for those kiters that understand what there doing and like to "tech out" their gear. I include myself in this category. As a self confessed kite addict/nerd, I don't understand the mentality of not wanting multiple customising options, to suit different scenarios. I really enjoy that aspect of kiting.

In this day and age we have to deal with choice often excessive choice - someone said this is what we wanted but now most do not know what to do with it.

Most people want to be lead as it is safe that way.

The marketing back room gurus know how to play us and most follow the biggest hype.

Its each individuals choice but sadly most do not know how to benefit from this apparent privilege

Gorgo said...

radman4 said...
...
Seems a bit of a strange attitude to have,with most other sports and equipment there is an opp to upgrade the equipment you have to suit yourself by the use of aftermarket bits or upgrades,however with kitesurfing its a case of this is what you get so buy it and lump it and we will upgrade next season,why not have the ability to modify and upgrade the flying charicteristics of the kite out of the box,to suit your riding style or to convert a kite towards a fixed c/hybrid style or bow style,seems like sense to me.

I disagree, hence my post. I would much prefer the designers and testers did their job properly in the first place.

In most cases the equipment I have works far better when used as the designer intended. Homemade modifications rarely improve the product. If they do the manufacturers have provided an upgrade kit.

Sorry mate but i think youve missed the point of the discussion,we are talking about certain kite manufacturers adding extra bridal attachment points ,thus allowing you to alter the flying charicteristics of the kite more drasticly by moving the whole or part of the bridal ,we arn't talkig about doing it yourself,most manufacturers give you the basics of options ie multi rear line and two or three shoulder options,but the argo has taken it a step further allowing you to move the entire bridal to multi positions.

radman4 said...
.....
Sorry mate but i think youve missed the point of the discussion,we are talking about certain kite manufacturers adding extra bridal attachment points ,thus allowing you to alter the flying charicteristics of the kite more drasticly by moving the whole or part of the bridal ,we arn't talkig about doing it yourself,most manufacturers give you the basics of options ie multi rear line and two or three shoulder options,but the argo has taken it a step further allowing you to move the entire bridal to multi positions.

Why didn't you say so. If you want to promote the Monkey Kites Argo 2010 that's fine with me.

I thought Floaty was saying manufacturers should leave multiple attachment points so you could tune your own kite. What he actually means is he wants a greater range of adjustability and customisation in a single kite.

If you want to make a convertible kite that can serve many different functions, go right ahead. I'm sure there's a market for it.

I wouldn't buy one though, for two reasons. I like a nice clean leading edge without extraneous stuff, and I would fear that the adjustability would come at the cost of performance and reliability.

What I would really like is a kite where the full range of the kite is easily accessible from the front line trimmer. I just want to throw my kite up, go riding, pull the trimmer and forget about it. It's a nuisance to even have to select the connection on the pig tails for the day then find I want to move it because the wind has changed.

Gorgo said...

radman4 said...
.....
Sorry mate but i think youve missed the point of the discussion,we are talking about certain kite manufacturers adding extra bridal attachment points ,thus allowing you to alter the flying charicteristics of the kite more drasticly by moving the whole or part of the bridal ,we arn't talkig about doing it yourself,most manufacturers give you the basics of options ie multi rear line and two or three shoulder options,but the argo has taken it a step further allowing you to move the entire bridal to multi positions.

Why didn't you say so. If you want to promote the Monkey Kites Argo 2010 that's fine with me.

I thought Floaty was saying manufacturers should leave multiple attachment points so you could tune your own kite. What he actually means is he wants a greater range of adjustability and customisation in a single kite.

If you want to make a convertible kite that can serve many different functions, go right ahead. I'm sure there's a market for it.

I wouldn't buy one though, for two reasons. I like a nice clean leading edge without extraneous stuff, and I would fear that the adjustability would come at the cost of performance and reliability.

What I would really like is a kite where the full range of the kite is easily accessible from the front line trimmer. I just want to throw my kite up, go riding, pull the trimmer and forget about it. It's a nuisance to even have to select the connection on the pig tails for the day then find I want to move it because the wind has changed.

Mate i,m not on a promo excercise just commenting on a post ,my main gripe with most kites is the more depower you use the less steering response you get,but if you can move the bridal in a stronger wind and soften the kite then you have to use less depower and thus you don't compromise your steering response the same.
i would say in the future that other manufacturers will poss adopt the idea as well to broaden the windrange of the kites.
A good example is i was riding one day on a 9 argo with the bridal all the way back in around 30 knots and im 98kg i was well lit up and thats how i like to ride,my mate was on the same kite with the bridal 2 positions forward and hes 68kg ,he had less depower on and still had the same steering response, so it really makes sense.

Don't laugh rowdy I have seen a 7 line bar. With the extra set of front lines you can change the front line attachment points while riding. You could even have a 9 line bar with another extra set of rear lines to have it totally adjustable.

GalahOnTheBay said...

bennie said...

I include myself in this category. As a self confessed kite addict/nerd, I don't understand the mentality of not wanting multiple customising options, to suit different scenarios. I really enjoy that aspect of kiting.

Bennie you are probably less that 1% of the kiting population, which is why the manufacturers are generally just not interested in catering for your needs...

are you saying I'm special