I cant ride upwind!

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Thecopterdr
Thecopterdr
QLD
98 posts
QLD, 98 posts
26 Apr 2009 8:38am
Hey guys, I've just brought a 12 metre dos to go with the 9 and am very impressed with the power it has. The problem is that I have all the power in the world and after about 5-6 sessions of getting used to it, still cannot go upwind.
I ride an 09 North Mallory 132x41 which works well with the 9 and have employed every upwind riding technique (3 years experience) known to this man with nil results on days ranging from 12-22 knots. I have set the LE lines up on all 3 knots and tried various cleat power settings on the day. I am using the 9 metre bar and lines (which come with the 12s anyway) and have always set the kite up so it doesn't backstall.
My obvious concern is that the kite does not fly forward enough in the window like the 9 metre.
Has anybody out there had similar issues with these or other kites and knows of a tuning tip before I have to go out and buy a hardcore upwind board?
NSW, 4382 posts
26 Apr 2009 9:05am
What size is a "mallory" and how much do you weigh?
Have noticed that on delta style kites, they don't go upwind as well as a lot of bow/hybrid/sle kites unless you are very light on the bar.
What I'm saying is you need to always be feeding the bar out, trimming the kite for speed, ride the board flatter and keep up your board speed, rather than pull back hard on the bar and edge and point upwind hard.

I ride regularly with a guy that has a 14M Dos, he goes upwind ok on it, not as well as I can on the same board and ozone Light xc, but he still goes upwind as well as the average 08/09 kite. He has learned to be light on the bar with it though, he really struggled with it at first from what I saw.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve
bennie
bennie
ACT
1258 posts
ACT, 1258 posts
26 Apr 2009 1:42pm
Thecopterdr said...

Hey guys, I've just brought a 12 metre dos to go with the 9 and am very impressed with the power it has. The problem is that I have all the power in the world and after about 5-6 sessions of getting used to it, still cannot go upwind.
I ride an 09 North Mallory which works well with the 9 and have employed every upwind riding technique (3 years experience) known to this man with nil results on days ranging from 12-22 knots. I have set the LE lines up on all 3 knots and tried various cleat power settings on the day. I am using the 9 metre bar and lines (which come with the 12s anyway) and have always set the kite up so it doesn't backstall.
My obvious concern is that the kite does not fly forward enough in the window like the 9 metre.
Has anybody out there had similar issues with these or other kites and knows of a tuning tip before I have to go out and buy a hardcore upwind board?



I should first point out that I do not own a dos. but heres my 2 cents.
I dont know how much you weigh or what size board you ride but unless your 140kg 15knots + should have you riding comfortably upwind.
If you have plenty of power then the problem has to be either technique of the way you have the kite set up. If you think the kite is not flying far enough forward or that the window isn't as big as it should be, that would suggest that you need to sheet the kite out more. Try setting the kite so the out side lines are on the botom knots, I think the dos has outside line trim straps on the bar so pull them in, (you dont want too much slack in the back lines though). When you try to ride upwind don't just point your board/body upwind but try to get your kite flying fast first, then point upwind.

If you have a 'normal' kiteboard with not too much rocker that will not be the issue and buying a new board will solve nothing. Remember different style kites and different wind conditions/strengths require different techniques too get the most out of them. Lighter wind in particular requires more skill and input from the kiter.
Kitehard
Kitehard
WA
2782 posts
WA, 2782 posts
26 Apr 2009 12:20pm
Hi Copdr,

The Dos is well known for a lot of things, but upwind ability is not one of them. The board you are riding is fine, The North Mallory is a 132 and is quite stiff and relatively flat, so it will be one of the better boards for upwind unless you are more than 90 kilos.

The tip is for you to keep the kite up into neutral as far as you can, this means keeping the kite low for starters. The lower the kite is, the more it pulls you towrds the edge of the window and less downwind.

Secondly, KEEP YOUR SPEED DOWN! By riding fast, the the apparent wind in the kite is fast which gives you lots of power, but the direction of the apparent wind is the problem, the faster you go, the more your dynamic wind window shifts away from the upwind dierection and point more and more away from the relative wind.

Riding slowly, reduces the headwind effect created by your forward speed. Remembering that apparent wind is the speed and direction of relative wind when combined with the speed and direction of movement. Without writing a complete tome in heavy scientific terminology, just trust me that if you ride slowly (enough to plane but not too much more), then the upwind ability will return.

The Dos will go upwind fine just not as easy as other performance kites, and I'd say the rigging is fine. I'll lay my money on you riding too fast, thus turning your apparent wind window too far away from relative wind.

I hope this makes sense, if not, just try riding powered but at a slower pace, it will solve your dilemma. Let me know how you get on.

Cheers,

Thecopterdr
Thecopterdr
QLD
98 posts
QLD, 98 posts
26 Apr 2009 3:52pm
Thanks Darren. Thanks also to you other guys, I weigh 80 kg on the 132 x 41 09 North Mallory and have fiddled with every setting and combination I can think of, I've been very aware of sheeting out and always ensure the kite is trimmed as far forward in the window as we can get it - I will however try riding a bit slower and see how this goes. Incidently none of this is a problem with the 9 metre on the same bar and lines.
NJPornstar
NJPornstar
WA
790 posts
WA, 790 posts
26 Apr 2009 1:52pm
I recon the kite may be alittle too powerful for your body weight.

If you have alot of power you will naturally sheet out.

Believe it or not upwind isnt as good when you sheeted out alot.

Sheeting out a large amount actually reduces the size of your wind window because the kite cant bite into the wind and allow the profiles to help fly the kite up close to the wind.
NSW, 4382 posts
26 Apr 2009 11:11pm
Thecopterdr said...

Thanks Darren. Thanks also to you other guys, I weigh 80 kg on the 132 x 41 09 North Mallory and have fiddled with every setting and combination I can think of, I've been very aware of sheeting out and always ensure the kite is trimmed as far forward in the window as we can get it - I will however try riding a bit slower and see how this goes. Incidently none of this is a problem with the 9 metre on the same bar and lines.


Would be very surprised if darrens info has not nailed your problem, definitely try riding slower.
Let the kite sheet out as much as you can so trim it so t aht the bar is a comfy distance and you can keep a good riding posture.
You are not too small for the kite nor is the board too small, the problem is exagerated with the 12M, because it is a fast profile and has a large projected area, in other words it always trys to "go fast".
Its a problem I have seen on the larger bandits and dos's, its not as bad with dos's, they have a better bottom end for most riders but the top end is a wild ride and usually ends up downwind, due to effect of apparent wind and getting increasingly overpowered.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve

NSW, 4382 posts
26 Apr 2009 11:28pm
NJPornstar said...

I recon the kite may be alittle too powerful for your body weight.

If you have alot of power you will naturally sheet out.

Believe it or not upwind isnt as good when you sheeted out alot.

Sheeting out a large amount actually reduces the size of your wind window because the kite cant bite into the wind and allow the profiles to help fly the kite up close to the wind.



Nick, stand on the beach sometime and fly your kite from one side of the window to the other.
Do it sheeted it, notice the size of the window?
Then do it sheeting out as much as possible, notice that the window is bigger?

What that means when a person is riding is that they will actually go upwind better with the kite sheeted out.
It can be explained in a more detailed and scientific way but be assured it is absolutely the way that kites work and how a rider goes upwind.
All the rider needs to do is keep speed down and sheet out enough to keep planing and they will go upwind at high angles with a low rocker board.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve
Andrash
Andrash
WA
637 posts
WA, 637 posts
26 Apr 2009 9:48pm
Hi Thecopterdr,
Some great advises from other guys. In general, not all big kites are good for light wind. Some need more wind to fly to the edge, some need less. You need to try. I tried a few 12-13m kites, and some of them were definitely for heavier rider in medium wind.
I had the same problem with my 08 cults. The 9 was sweet and easy, but the 13.5 was a pig: big power and no upwind. Darren's advice is great, however I found that slowing the board down would move the kite further to the edge only marginally....it's just not designed to ride to the edge in less than Xkn. I weigh less than 70kg (even in winter) and I kite around 8 years (still learning). Some of my old timer 16m kites were much better light wind than the 12-13's today. In my experience from trying about 6-7 big kites lately is that the Ozone light XT(?) is the best upwind, in fact it is crazy, but it was slow for me. I ended up with a Rev 13, that flies to the edge far enough, and still turns fast for me to ride the waves in light wind.
I hope it helps.
Cheers
Thecopterdr
Thecopterdr
QLD
98 posts
QLD, 98 posts
27 Apr 2009 9:57am
Thanks for all your replies, I have a very good understanding of aerodynamics and have tried numerous setups regarding sheeting out etc. The kite does get away on me sometimes and can make for a challenging ride until I can reign it back in.
A few years ago I was told to keep the board speed up to allow me to go up wind better - I think that in this case I will need to drop it off and carve harder upwind.
What baffles me is that wether the wind is at the top or bottom of the kites range all I can do is maintain position.
RAL INN
RAL INN
SA
2898 posts
SA, 2898 posts
27 Apr 2009 11:50am
Thecopterdr said...

Thanks for all your replies, I have a very good understanding of aerodynamics and have tried numerous setups regarding sheeting out etc. The kite does get away on me sometimes and can make for a challenging ride until I can reign it back in.
A few years ago I was told to keep the board speed up to allow me to go up wind better - I think that in this case I will need to drop it off and carve harder upwind.
What baffles me is that wether the wind is at the top or bottom of the kites range all I can do is maintain position.


I have used the 12m a few times and can only say that upwind performance was not an issue at all. Maybe you need to back step a bit and go back to basics. also the 12m needs to use the 2nd knot on center line never the first. and I assume you have it inflated as per factory recommendations, this is important.
this kite is powerful and probably closer to a 14m in grunt so ask yourself if in the conditions you are having these issues, Would you be on a 14m?
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