Trim was something i was taught in my lessons.
Was like Goldilocks and the three bears.
To Hot
To Cold
Just right.
Great post.

Used this today! Thanks!

puppetonastring said...

foorked said...
why would you launch a kite trimmed with full depower?

Why?
1) Because the most dangerous place to fly your kite is on the beach.
2) Because launching and landing is when things are most likely to go awry.
3) But Mostly - because on launching this is the time when you are being guided by your assessment of the conditions entirely. Any other time you have already flown the kite.

foorked said...
wouldn't is stall in light conditions and luff in gusty conditions?

If your kite is incapable of launching then - esp for a beginner - it's probably too light to bother. But if it is too light then at least you know that for certain without having risked being too powered.
If its too windy then fully depowered is essential.

one very important thing missed here, if something is going to go wrong with your launch, it will go wrong slower with a fully de-powered kite

Yeh and double check you safety is connected and your donkey dick is engaged, lost count of how many people I've seen launch their kite , nek minuet their unhooked either getting lofted or scull dragged up the beach....

puppetonastring said...

Absolute 1st rule basic of kiting.
Essential procedure EVERY time you venture out. Yet so many newbs - and even experienced kiters - plead total ignorance of this basic knowledge when I start talking about top & bottom end assessment.
Schools just aren't covering this anywhere near enough for it to hit home in the program which should be teaching you how to kite.
Here's the procedure EVERY kiter should follow in launching & preparing for EVERY session.
Rule No. One: the most dangerous place to fly your kite is on the beach. So many newbs fob off advice for lessons with the excuse "I'm not going anywhere near the water till I learn how to fly my kite"!!!! So wrong it laughable - if it wasn't so serious. There is NOTHING you can learn apart from launching & landing on the beach. Kite skills are only learnt when you are moving with your kite. But that's not the point of this post.
TRIMMING YOUR KITE.
- Launch with kite set on full depower.
- Keep kite at 12 till you are in position for your launch - preferably already in the water.
- With bar fully out pull in on your trim rope - straps or cleat lines - until rear lines are slightly more bowed than front lines.
- Final check. Pull the bar in 5 cms. This should bring back lines into = tension with front lines.
Your kite is now trimmed to suit the conditions of the day.
Get out & enjoy the session knowing all is sweet.

The only time you will ever need to adjust your trim if this is done correctly will be if the wind increases or decreases significantly during the session.
That is until you come in for your landing when you should secure the kite at 12 and depower fully before bringing it down. WHY - cos the most dangerous place to fly your kite is on the beach.
Keep yourself & those around you - safe.

Thanks for the help. But if you fully de-power before launching, won't it be difficult to steer the kite?

foorked said...
why would you launch a kite trimmed with full depower? wouldn't is stall in light conditions and luff in gusty conditions?

Going from the surface to the air is the hardest transition with the most resistance your kite has to make in a days kiting.
More power means more resistance to the air = harder launching and also deeper in the window which means a more lively launch - harder to control as you need to react quicker and stronger.
Fully depowered kite flys forward in the window with less power and less resistance to the wind and therefore to the transition.
With a depowered kite, in most winds above very light, you can launch by just tugging on the upper leader line and letting go once the kite hits 10 or 2 o'clock. Grab your bar and adjust the trim.
Water relaunches work the same way with the bar right out the kite will launch much faster than if you are choking it with power.

Livit, don't know how true this is being a beginner, but I was told in my lessons that the wind will be gustier as soon as it hits land - even if its rather flat. Suppose that would be a good reason to get into the water asap?

Livit said...
I kind of disagree with Puppet on this topic!
From a learner point of view a fully depowered kite doesn't deliver enough feedback into the bar to judge if you are well positioned in the wind window.
Ideally you should assess the conditions and decide how you are going to pull your trim strap.
I usually launch fully powered then bring the kite to 10 or 2 and assess from there. I like having the sweet spot halfway through the throw, but some people will like it closer, just personal preferences I'd say.
Why not flying the kite on the beach? If the beach is broad enough or/and there is not any obstacles and danger I don't see why wouldn't you? If you snow kite or land kite you don't need any water and both surfaces are just as hard as the sand if not worst. It is part of the sport and considering everyone should take lessons before going on his own, I wouldn't send any learner in the water before he understands and feel the sweet spot on the bar. This the main key of controlling your kite so what is the point of sending someone off in the water if he doesn't have a clue of the basics???
Just because it is more forgiving? Pointless IMO

Let me break it down for you... Getting dragged aimlessly down the beach can hurt like **** and leave you with injuries, getting dragged through the water is better. Launching your kite depowered gives you a buffer, in that the kite moves slower and has less power.

But, good onya for telling us what you reckon, solid advice getting noobs to fly around on the beach and launch fully powered.

Livit said...


Yeah, let me break it down for you as well:
I agree with you, getting dragged aimlessly down the beach can hurt for sure but you still have to launch from the beach anyway so IMO you have to learn how to fly your kite on the beach first. Some of the narrow minded people like you believe that all beaches in the world consist of a 50 m sandy beach with the water at the end of it. In my place the tide is getting so low that sometimes you have to walk 500m with your kite up to reach the water. Therefore you need to get a good understanding of your kite and the way it flies before you hit the water.

What you said just highlight the fact that throughout your lessons you probably didn't have a clue about what the sweet spot is.

I often see instructors taking the kite from their students and walk it upwind of ride it back to their starting spot before handing it back to the noob and send him back to the water. How the hell can they learn from that????

Once they will be on their own they'll have to do it anyway and it's also the perfect moment to explain HOW TO TRIM it but obviously not with the kite at 12 as Puppet said. You trim the kite from 2 or 10 as it is where the kite will be when you ride it or walk it.

Plenty of the modern kites have almost no control when fully depowered so unless you intend to launch it at its high end, I believe you should not depower more than halfway.

Hybrid_Z said...

Livit said...


Yeah, let me break it down for you as well:
I agree with you, getting dragged aimlessly down the beach can hurt for sure but you still have to launch from the beach anyway so IMO you have to learn how to fly your kite on the beach first. Some of the narrow minded people like you believe that all beaches in the world consist of a 50 m sandy beach with the water at the end of it. In my place the tide is getting so low that sometimes you have to walk 500m with your kite up to reach the water. Therefore you need to get a good understanding of your kite and the way it flies before you hit the water.

What you said just highlight the fact that throughout your lessons you probably didn't have a clue about what the sweet spot is.

I often see instructors taking the kite from their students and walk it upwind of ride it back to their starting spot before handing it back to the noob and send him back to the water. How the hell can they learn from that????

Once they will be on their own they'll have to do it anyway and it's also the perfect moment to explain HOW TO TRIM it but obviously not with the kite at 12 as Puppet said. You trim the kite from 2 or 10 as it is where the kite will be when you ride it or walk it.

Plenty of the modern kites have almost no control when fully depowered so unless you intend to launch it at its high end, I believe you should not depower more than halfway.

+1

zarb said...
Livit, sorry but I don't understand. And I'm not having a go at you, I just don't know a lot about KBing at the moment. Is there any reason why you wouldn't just set your kite up and launch from the waters edge? Why are you walking 500m to the water with a kite in the air?

Because after low tide comes the high tide so if you leave your stuff near the water edge guess what.....

Puppet is really living up to his name - "a tight arse stuck on strings by rules and regulations". The next thing he is going to do, is come to my beach and measure the distance between the water's edge and the dunes and the distance to the water at low tide and THEN decide whether it's safe for you or not.

Look pups! I know you've got the best intentions in mind, etc. But please stop preaching here dude. We know (should know) the safety side of kiting and yes, having the kite fully depowered and later trimmed is the way to go - IFF() the conditions allow it! Otherwise.... well... lets just say every day is different and it warrants different adjustments on the kite. So what!? Each to their own. And yes, I meant "to their own!". Safety is one own's responsibility. At the end of the day, if the ambos arrive to scrape you off the reef it's because your time was up anyway - you did not adhere to the safety and conditions of the day. Every kite is different, every rider is different. BUT NOOOOooo in Pup's world we are all the same and should be talked to the same.

Just to throw an egg into the mix and please feel free to laugh as I'm new haha.

Been reading this thread and I'm thinking when your talking about trimming your using the depower line to trim?

Is this the same with 5 and 4 line kites??

The reason I ask is i notice there is a trimming section in my bar manual and it focuses on ensuring all your lines are the same length?? You do it not attached to the kite??

Im using a north bar??

Kazan said...
Puppet is really living up to his name - "a tight arse stuck on strings by rules and regulations". The next thing he is going to do, is come to my beach and measure the distance between the water's edge and the dunes and the distance to the water at low tide and THEN decide whether it's safe for you or not.

Look pups! I know you've got the best intentions in mind, etc. But please stop preaching here dude. We know (should know) the safety side of kiting and yes, having the kite fully depowered and later trimmed is the way to go - IFF() the conditions allow it! Otherwise.... well... lets just say every day is different and it warrants different adjustments on the kite. So what!? Each to their own. And yes, I meant "to their own!". Safety is one own's responsibility. At the end of the day, if the ambos arrive to scrape you off the reef it's because your time was up anyway - you did not adhere to the safety and conditions of the day. Every kite is different, every rider is different. BUT NOOOOooo in Pup's world we are all the same and should be talked to the same.

Your safety is your responsibility, but as a kiter you also have to consider the people around you and their safety. Puppet's post is just getting out information about how to kite safely, not everyone on this site is experienced and some people will not know that it's less safe to learn to fly the kite on the beach, and some people don't know it's a good idea to launch depowered. It's pretty hard to argue that either of those points are wrong.

Also, the second half of puppet's post about properly trimming your kite is freaking awesome, and something that not all kiters may know about.

Cheers

triming is adjusting the wings angle of attack.

this whole power depower nonsense basicly just came about to sell more wings. a 10m kite has 10ms of power no matter how "rimmed" it is. it will allways have 10m's of power.

when you learn a bit more about stalls etc feel free to make a new thread correcting everyone. might pay to watch different wing designs in wind tunnells .



one thing I find anoying these days is whenever you get an instructor to give you a launch these days they seem to want to run around with you kite trying to get you into the "safest" position. I advise everyone to just lift the kite up when the pilots confirmed he is properly connected to the bar. then you just stand there and you wait. dont run around up wind down wind twisting the kite this way and that. dont even yell or signal. just stand there holding the kite nice straight and high so that all lines will be clearly visable and not crossing when tension is on. if you REALLY think the pilots not capable of launching down wind etc then just put the kite back down and await for the pilot to come in for a chat.

I assure you even if its a beginer he will probably walk further up or down wind to make sure he doesnt hot launch straight down wind. but he cant see that if your ****ing climbing up amd down walls and going for a swim with your kite.

so very simple pick up kite hold it nice and vertical so all lines are clearly seperated and either let go when they say or refuse to and put it back down.

this whole triming bar business tho, theres alot of factors. when im useing a board thats 6 sizes to small for me I like to be way to overpowerd. youve seen me ive got that poo man stance and im rocking the 2 foot jumps. but if all my equipment is suitable im happy with it all about medium. its a personal preference really. sometimes I just like to feel out of control.