Upwind bar in/out confusion

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PommyMike
PommyMike
QLD
22 posts
QLD, 22 posts
29 Mar 2015 7:19pm
On riding & staying upwind, most things I read say that pushing the bar out moves your kite closer to the edge of the window and pulls you more upwind which makes sense. But it also seems that you need a decent amount of power in the kite, ie pull the bar in.

I guess its a trial & error / Experience thing but which has more effect, being pulled more upwind but with less power or being pulled a little downwind & edging harder?


Also on the subject of the edge of the window, how much difference should there be between sheeting all the way in and out? Ie I've practised on land putting my kite at 2 o clock and pulling the bar in & out but there doesn't seem to be any difference in its position. It's a Best TS 17m I'm using if it might be the kite that's causing the lack of difference?
Plummet
Plummet
4862 posts
4862 posts
29 Mar 2015 6:08pm
Bar about halfway
toppleover
toppleover
QLD
2070 posts
QLD, 2070 posts
29 Mar 2015 9:19pm
In light wind, try pulling the bar in on the down-stroke & letting it back out on the up-stroke.
If there's enough wind to park the kite - bar about half way.

You will get a feel for it eventually.
Kamikuza
Kamikuza
QLD
6493 posts
QLD, 6493 posts
29 Mar 2015 11:51pm
PommyMike said..
On riding & staying upwind, most things I read say that pushing the bar out moves your kite closer to the edge of the window and pulls you more upwind which makes sense. But it also seems that you need a decent amount of power in the kite, ie pull the bar in.

I guess its a trial & error / Experience thing but which has more effect, being pulled more upwind but with less power or being pulled a little downwind & edging harder?


Also on the subject of the edge of the window, how much difference should there be between sheeting all the way in and out? Ie I've practised on land putting my kite at 2 o clock and pulling the bar in & out but there doesn't seem to be any difference in its position. It's a Best TS 17m I'm using if it might be the kite that's causing the lack of difference?


Won't see much of a difference on land, but on the water, if you combine sheeting out with edging hard, the kite will noticeably surge upwind.

Sheeting the bar is a balancing act between angle of attack, lift and drag.

Sheeting out, the kite will create less drag due to lower angle of attack so it'll want to fly upwind, but you'll need more air speed to get the same amount of pull out of it as sheeting in would give you. And the lift vector with a sheeted out kite will be more upwind...
KIT33R
KIT33R
NSW
1716 posts
NSW, 1716 posts
30 Mar 2015 10:19am
No one has mentioned trimming the kite. Your trim strap/cleat rope is your best friend to maximize performance out of your kite.
Gorgo
Gorgo
VIC
5127 posts
VIC, 5127 posts
30 Mar 2015 11:09am
All the advice is correct .. and wrong. You don't ever just put the bar somewhere and go.

The first step in going upwind is to get some power and a bit of edging happening so you want the kite back in the window a little.

As you start going upwind and you have plenty of power then you can let the kite come forward and get a bit more upwind performance.

But, as your board speed and upwind angle increase the apparent wind moves so you can let the kite back into the window a bit more and get some more power.

Then you'll hit a wave and slow down and your kite will be too far back and start to stall so you'll want to bring it forward a little.

So the correct answer is learn to feel the power in the kite and the board and trim both of them constantly and automatically for what is happening in that instant.
glendog
glendog
QLD
520 posts
QLD, 520 posts
30 Mar 2015 11:03am
Going up wind is more about the way you angle your board. The bar will be constantly moving to where feels good
PaulyOS
PaulyOS
199 posts
199 posts
30 Mar 2015 7:01pm
For me, I like to gain alot of speed, once I get relatively decent speed I'll edge hard with my back foot. By edging hard you are essentially slowing down the board, however the kite still has momentum from the speed you were going at before edging. Due to the momentum, the kite will continue flying forward while your board slows down. This results in the kite going forward in the window. As the kite moves forward in the window I like to let off my edge a bit so I can regain some speed.

I am now going upwind :)


Xanthian
Xanthian
23 posts
23 posts
31 Mar 2015 1:35am
First season rookie here also, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, but as long as your bar position is able to get you up and planing, you're better off focusing on board speed or sining the kite rather than obsessing over how far to sheet it out to go upwind. Both of these things ultimately have a larger effect on the power you extract from the kite than an angle of attack change (because they increase apparent wind speed rather than trading lift for power), and a more powerful kite will shoot you further upwind always, all things being equal, as long as you're able to edge that power.

Those are the lessons I've learned in making the switch to C kites way too soon, and having recently used a slightly underpowered really vague bow kite for a few minutes, they hold true even in bridled kites.

You can also just fly the kite lower. The wind window is obviously further into the wind at the horizon than higher altitudes, and you'll have less vertical pull to contend with pulling you off your edge. Should be a measurably larger effect than sheeting.
Gfly
Gfly
165 posts
165 posts
7 Apr 2015 10:49pm
What is the correct technique to bring the kite forward or back in the wind window?

PaulyOS
PaulyOS
199 posts
199 posts
8 Apr 2015 1:15am
Gfly said..
What is the correct technique to bring the kite forward or back in the wind window?



The main thing to focus on is the angle of your board. Also helps to be relatively powered up (i.e nice and windy). Once you are powering along, edge your board hard with your back heal. By pressing on the back heal you can aim your board upwind, but don't aim it too far upwind or you will lose power. Remember, you must press hard with your back foot (front leg straight while back leg bent). Push your back foot towards the water to create an edge and use your heal to aim your board.

After I became very comfortable with my kite control, I began to start focusing on my board control. I looked at the kite less because I could feel where it was the majority of the time and started to spend more time looking at the board. By focusing more on my board I could manoeuvre myself using my back foot to aim the board more upwind.

I like to choose landmarks and aim for them.

Gfly
Gfly
165 posts
165 posts
8 Apr 2015 2:19pm
So the only way to control whether the kite sits in front of the wind window or in in the middle is through the board?

My kite usually shoots out to the front of the window if there is isnt enough wind so most times I try to keep it further back.
gkawo
gkawo
VIC
193 posts
VIC, 193 posts
8 Apr 2015 5:02pm
PaulyOS said..

I like to choose landmarks and aim for them.



Spot on. Beginners will always look at the kite. That's ok, but you need to not worry about the kite and focus on direction and board control. Master kite control first then look to where you want to go and naturally your body turns upwind enough to aim in that direction.
Forcetwelve
Forcetwelve
TAS
170 posts
TAS, 170 posts
8 Apr 2015 7:15pm
Slightly off topic but similar concept, can someone clarify this for me. Here's the situation:

- light wind approx 12-15k
- 95kg rider
- 12m kite
- trim to full power
- seems that I am underpowered all the time and pull the bar in

Half way through the session I trimmed kite to half depowered and it seemed to fly better. Is that due to the parachute-like effect when it's fully powered?
KIT33R
KIT33R
NSW
1716 posts
NSW, 1716 posts
8 Apr 2015 8:59pm
Forcetwelve said..
Slightly off topic but similar concept, can someone clarify this for me. Here's the situation:

- light wind approx 12-15k
- 95kg rider
- 12m kite
- trim to full power
- seems that I am underpowered all the time and pull the bar in

Half way through the session I trimmed kite to half depowered and it seemed to fly better. Is that due to the parachute-like effect when it's fully powered?


Do a bit of research on how wings work. Your trim strap alters the angle of attack of your kite. Pulling in on the strap shortens the front lines and flattens the kite and spills air. Letting it out makes the wing more efficient by maximising the differential between the air moving over the kite versus the air moving under it. It is not like a parachute, it is a wing.
weebitbreezy
weebitbreezy
635 posts
635 posts
8 Apr 2015 9:57pm
KIT33R said..

Forcetwelve said..
Slightly off topic but similar concept, can someone clarify this for me. Here's the situation:

- light wind approx 12-15k
- 95kg rider
- 12m kite
- trim to full power
- seems that I am underpowered all the time and pull the bar in

Half way through the session I trimmed kite to half depowered and it seemed to fly better. Is that due to the parachute-like effect when it's fully powered?



Do a bit of research on how wings work. Your trim strap alters the angle of attack of your kite. Pulling in on the strap shortens the front lines and flattens the kite and spills air. Letting it out makes the wing more efficient by maximising the differential between the air moving over the kite versus the air moving under it. It is not like a parachute, it is a wing.


In answer, at that wind speed and kite size you were likely choking the kite ( too great an angle of attack for the speed of the wing causing it to stall) until you trimmed it.

Its not uncommon to need an inch (or more) of trim when riding in light winds (particularly if you don't adjust your lines after every session to make sure they are perfect length)
Xanthian
Xanthian
23 posts
23 posts
8 Apr 2015 11:14pm
Gfly said..
So the only way to control whether the kite sits in front of the wind window or in in the middle is through the board?

My kite usually shoots out to the front of the window if there is isnt enough wind so most times I try to keep it further back.


The only ways to sit the kite further back in the window are with board speed (depending how you want this described, let's just say apparent wind pushes it further back, or the board moves the front of the window forward before the kite can fly to it, either works), or kite speed (moving the kite rather than letting it fly to the edge of the window).
evila
evila
VIC
66 posts
VIC, 66 posts
9 Apr 2015 1:46pm
I'm about your weight and I can tell you that 12knots will be a struggle with a 12m kite no matter what.

Unless you are using a big light wind board even 14 knots needs a fair bit of skill

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